Main Proud Warrior Race Guy Discussion

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OzzyMandias He who digs out rocks Since: Sep, 2020

He who digs out rocks

Dec 10th 2022 at 2:08:27 AM •••

Question : why was the picture of a klingon deleted from the main page ? Klingons are the poster child of this trope, even to people who never watched Star Trek themselves. If the issue is that the picture didn't show how much warlike they are, I'm sure we can find one easily on the net.

Edited by OzzyMandias I am a drow and I'm diggin a hole, diggy diggy ho, diggy diggy ho Hide / Show Replies

OzzyMandias Since: Sep, 2020

Dec 10th 2022 at 2:16:57 AM •••

Here is my proposition, with all credits due of course : [1]

I am a drow and I'm diggin a hole, diggy diggy ho, diggy diggy ho

rjd1922 Since: May, 2013

Sep 23rd 2023 at 1:12:11 PM •••

Feel free to create a thread in the Image Pickin' forum to suggest a new image, but we'd need the artist's permission to use your suggestion.

Keet cleanup

SeptimusHeap MOD (Edited uphill both ways)

Mar 23rd 2021 at 7:02:50 AM •••

Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Severe Misuse, Trope Decay, started by Ghilz on Nov 7th 2010 at 8:57:45 AM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

ambessalion Mr awesome Since: Feb, 2014

Mr awesome

Aug 20th 2016 at 5:00:18 PM •••

The san tarah, cat-like warriors, from the star trek: gorkon novels. They impressed and defeated a Klingon crew captained by klag.

-The Weird One

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer (Before Recorded History)

The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer

Nov 26th 2013 at 1:06:07 AM •••

Just to be sure, a Proud Scholar Race can also be a Proud Warrior Race, right?

Edited by 176.44.50.213 Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Martello Hammer of the Pervs Since: Jan, 2001

Hammer of the Pervs

Feb 18th 2012 at 11:02:55 AM •••

Zero Context Examples here. Anybody who knows the source or cares more can add them back with explanation.

Anime:

The Aswad in Mai-Otome.
Touka from Utawarerumono is a Proud Warrior Race girl.

Sub-bullet to Princess Mononoke example:

Played straight with the Boars.

The Gamilons / Gamilas in Star Blazers / Space Battleship Yamato.

Comic Books:

The Kree in the Marvel Universe. To a certain degree the Skrulls have this too.
- This trope is even mentioned by name about the Skrulls in New Avengers #32.
- And the Shi'ar. Nice variety in your aliens, Marvel. Then again, I suppose it makes some sense that the proud warrior races have already conquered most of the less aggressive aliens.
- X-Men antagonists the people of the Breakworld are a particularly extreme example.
Every other alien race in The DCU seems to be composed of warriors. The Khund, The Thanagarians and the Daxamites, for example.
- The Thanagarians only got that way after the Crisis, to make them Darker and Edgier. In the Silver Age, they were more a Crystal Spires and Togas sort of culture.

The entire "Fan Works" folder:

Fan Works

All the skahs are like this in With Strings Attached, even the mild-mannered Grunnel, who simply cannot understand why the four object to certain things, and comments that they don't understand him, either.

Movies:

The Exterminators from the 70s Mind Screw movie Zardoz.
Both the British and the Zulus in Zulu.

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.

joeyjojo Happy New Year! Since: Jan, 2001

Happy New Year!

Aug 15th 2010 at 12:35:08 AM •••

pulled.

''By and large this trope is an example of Did Not Do Research. Writers habitually don't appreciate that militaries are elaborate fighting machines that need to be operating at peak efficiency as a matter of life an death. This means everything from figuring out how to deploy forces quickly to figuring out what firing pattern is going to have maximum effect to constructing elaborate 3-dimensional maneuvers using wide array of equipment. This is why most countries have military academies. On top of that, any successful military cultures usually requires most people to be tactfully know when to make critiques and when to hold their tongues. When you think about it, it really makes sense that etiquette driven cultures that historically prevailed in France, Prussia and the Antebellum South produced some of the most celebrated armies in history. By contrast, the honor bound troglodytes portrayed in fiction would most likely be slaughtered en mass in the face of an army with a reasonably well trained officer corps. Consider it a deconstruction if the honor bound troglodytes actually are slaughtered.

Writers using this trope tend to think of the "warrior," the lone fighter whose final authorities are his own goals and his own conscience, as superior to the "soldier", who obeys orders and does what his superiors say. WWII saw two warrior-ethos cultures lose to three soldier-ethos ones, but that doesn't always happen — see this book. Of course in any case the two styles are not without overlap, and people from a "warrior" culture can learn discipline and be handy as "soldiers" (this occurred in Hawaii, for example, and the Spartans fought as phalanxes). The outdated idea of Martial Race created by the British in India is an attempt to classify people as proud warrior races.''

it's natter with a side helping of Writer on Board, most of the time the Proud Warrior Race Guy does get his ass handed to him when it comes to a fight anyway.

Edited by joeyjojo hashtagsarestupid Hide / Show Replies

jora Since: Aug, 2010

Mar 6th 2011 at 3:01:05 PM •••

But why does any of the above justify cutting the RL entry? It's a cultural phenomena that has nothing to do with the 'facts' of who killed who, or who won what war, or anything that 'actually' happened. It's about perception and culture, not facts. Stop crying about generalizations (that's what most tropes are btw) and get over your faux-intellectual, high-minded, egocentric selves. Now, piece your dignity and self-respect back together, and put it back up, but edit out whatever doesn't fit Proud Warrior Race Guy- a person who is proud about being part of a warrior culture. Done.

BazBake Since: Aug, 2012

Aug 2nd 2011 at 8:18:44 PM •••

Even the examples of modern "Proud Warrior Race Guys" are bizarre. B.A. Baracus and Hawk don't fight because all black people like to fight, they fight because they were paid to fight (soldier and police officer). Kato doesn't fight because all Chinese people are a race of warriors, he fights because he's a bodyguard.

One of the guidelines for "Proud Warrior Race Guy" should have to be his repeated reference to his RACIAL WARRIORHOOD, not just the fact that he likes to fight and isn't white.

jackalope044 Since: Mar, 2011

Aug 27th 2011 at 11:17:55 PM •••

Isn't the whole point of a wiki that people with more knowledge on a subject are supposed to correct things added by those with less knowledge?

If you get rid of a section just because misinformation continues to be added, that's more that you're just too lazy to correct it than it needs to be removed.

jackalope044 Since: Mar, 2011

Aug 27th 2011 at 11:19:26 PM •••

Also, if you're going to get rid of the real life examples for this, then shouldn't you get rid of the real life examples for Proud Scholar Race and Proud Merchant Race?

Consistency, is all.

BigT @@[=grimAuxiliatrix=]@@ Since: Jan, 2001

@@[=grimAuxiliatrix=]@@

Jun 19th 2010 at 4:59:48 PM •••

Did this trope use to be called The Klingon? I found an old link that seemed to be referring to this page, but used that name for the trope. I've already potholed, but I'm still curious.

Everyone Has An Important Job To Do

DialgaX Since: Jan, 2001

Mar 27th 2010 at 9:05:31 AM •••

Seriously, why did the real life section get deleted? Yes, there is a lot of natter but the outdated "Martial Race" ideology used by the British fits perfectly with this trope.

Real Life

A case of Truth in Television, as the British Empire (and others) had the designation 'Martial Race' to describe just these sorts of peoples. The most familiar result of this concept are the Gurkhas in the service of the British Army. Of course, the truth of the classification is itself up for debate, so it might be a case of Possible Truth In Generalisation, which lacks an article.
- That said, it's hard to deny the appropriateness of this trope for, say, the Gurkhas, and the Rajputs in general.
  - The Rajputs and Gurkhas were warrior castes, the Indian caste system of old strictly defined what jobs people of certain birth could do, and these guys were designated to the soldiers, a direct analogue with the Feudal warriors of other civilizations. The Caste System was more stable than the European style feudalism, but both systems are long gone, but the pride of belonging has not.
- On the other hand, the Nation of Shopkeepers did decide to put itself at the top of this list (like all the others)... You could question this logic.
  - Yes, but could the French, Spaniards, Dutch, Germans, Italians, Argentines, etc question that logic?
- It may be significant to note that a lot of present day Brits are decended from three of the warrior races mentioned below, namely the Celts, Anglo-Saxons and, particuarly in the case of northerners, Vikings.
The Real Life Vikings believed that only warriors went to the mead-hall of Valhalla (and got to fight again every day, just for fun). Those who died of other causes went to cold, barren, cheerless Hel, or just disappeared, depending on the how good people they were and which modern theory you subscribe to.
- There was a loophole to that. If you happened to be dying in bed for whatever reason, you had the option of taking your dagger and hacking the 'victory' rune into your own torso. They figured that if you were badass enough for that, you deserved a place in Valhalla. (Makes sense - can you blame a Viking for not dying in battle, if he's so good that he always wins?)
  - You could blame the Viking in question on account of not having been chosen by a Valkyrie, since their whole schtick was to choose the warriors for Valhalla, and would therefor rearrange the battle so that they could collect their warrior while in top form. Doing such things as chaning the trajectories of the arrows. Of course if you are bad ass enough to even avoid a death tailored by demi-goddesses...
- Don't forget the honored dead had a 50/50 chance of going to Fólkvangr (Freya's realm) instead of Valhalla. Some interpretations make the divide whether you were what we call here a Blood Knight (Valhalla) or if you were defending your home and loved ones (Fólkvangr). Other versions make Fólkvangr open to anyone who died "nobly."
The Anglo-Saxons. After effectivly curbstomping the Britions, they settled into centuries of fighting anyone they could find, usually each other with wars between kingdoms occuring practically every year. Not only that, but they were obsessed with honour to the point where a warrior surviving a battle where his lord was killed was considered dishonorable in the extreme, and they were of the opinion that losing a battle wasn't shameful so long as the losing army fought with courage and didn't surrender, even when it was glaringly obvious at the start that they were going to lose. They fought the above mentioned Vikings for centuries and ultimatly won. Not particuarly suprisingly, the original Anglo-Saxon religion was basically the same as that of the Vikings, not that the eventual conversion to Christianity made a blind bit of difference.
The Mamluks. Originally a warrior slave caste in the Egyptian Sultanate, they were intensively trained to be the perfect soldiers, and were taught the furusiyya, a code of courage, generosity, and battlefield (particularly cavalry) tactics. They were repeatedly sent to battle against the Crusaders, and are considered a major reason why most of the Crusades failed. They eventually took over Egypt, ruling for hundreds of years, even beating the Mongols, of all opponents, in 1260. When the Ottoman Turks took over Egypt, it was because they were using their own version of Mamluks, the Janissaries. It took Napoleon (with modern military training, a large conscript army, modern muskets, and Ottoman decadence) to finally beat them outright.
- Speaking of, the Jannissaries were Christian children converted to Islam and became the Sultan's personal guard. And they packed heat.
For that matter most cultures have some aspect of this. Maybe HUMANS are a Proud Warrior Race.
- Truth in Television. Consider the point of storytelling: to take some aspect of human life and examine it at length. We wouldn't be writing about Proud Warrior Races if it weren't pertinent to us somehow. Having said that, to be a Proud Warrior Race, honor-from-beating-up-enemies would have to be central to human culture, and, it isn't, so we as a species don't count.
  - How dare you? I'm gonna kick your ass!
- Nah, we're too well-organized to be a Proud Warrior Race.
SPARTANS!
- Oh yes. If you weren't a Spartan warrior, it meant you were one of their slaves. And if you won every war you fought in and died in bed, you didn't even get a headstone.
  - Uh, no. Spartans weren't stupid (despite what "300" would have you believe). They knew they were a sharp minority (their style of raising Spartiates meant that there were never more than 9,000 at any given time), so while they did have slaves, called Helots, they also had a middle-class made up of immigrants and non-Spartiates called Perioikoi. They were treated with respect and all the dignity a middle class would have been. After all, they farmed the food and made the clothes the Spartans ate and wore. The Spartans knew better than to shit on those who fed and clothed them.
  - Yes, but they were given no say in any political decisions nor were allowed to interbreed with the Spartans.
  - Well, they also believed that if they allowed those things, that the Spartans would be less potent warriors. They needed to protect the genes. And if they allowed the middle class into politics, that could potentially disrupt the system they had set up to produce nigh-perfect proud warrior race guys. So it's not like they didn't give them all their rights because they disrespected them.
- A very wise man once observed (probably NSFW), "only amateur fascists admire the Spartans."
The Romans and the Prussians, though known for far more than their fighting prowess, nevertheless held military values in high regard.
The Celts. They were so nasty they scared the bejesus out of the Romans and actually managed to sack the city at one point. Reputedly, the Romans had to literally teach them (the hard way, natch) the concept of "peace" — as in, not just until they'd recovered from the last fight.
- One tribe of Gauls did, The Celts one major cultural failing was their inability to unify which is why in the long run the Romans ate their lunch. On the other hand, even the Romans were aware that had the Celts been able to stop fighting each other and cooperate then they would've had their asses kicked.
The Mongols traditionally learn to ride a horse as early as they can walk, and even today are known for their archery. Is it any wonder that these guys conquered so much of Asia?
- And kick Eastern Europe's ass.
- Hell, the Mongols were so terrifying the Christian world was convinced they were a punishment inflicted on them by Satan. Apparently Genghis Khan decided to confirm said idea.
  - Those were Muslims, and punishment from God, not Satan. The Christians thought for longest time that the Khan himself was a Christian who would deliver them from the perceived Muslim threat. These opinions changed quickly after they had some first-hand experience of him.
  - To be fair, the Sultan brought that one on himself when he executed Genghis's messengers who only wanted to trade.
  - The Sultan's subjects didn't.
- Also, at the time, fighting with mounted archers was simply unfair. If you had the best mounted archers, you had total control in the field, which means the only thing that can stop you is a fortress. In other words, you can move. They can't. In modern times, the only ways to fight a roaring horde of millions of horse archers would be a horde of choppers.
  - In truth, the effectiveness of mounted archers are debatable. What made the mongol horde deadly at the operational level was their horses; they were even smaller than contemporary European horses and could survive off grazing, which European horses (bread for heavy cavalry tactics and stamina) could not do. On the field, much of their work was done by feigned retreats (their horses were slower than Europe's) and hand cavalry action. Their conquests in much of Asia were handled by coming in -during- someone elses war and simply mopping up, or attacking weak and defenseless kingdoms.
    - Many examples of a Proud Warrior Race got part of their reputation in uneven matches. War is not arranged like an athletic event.
  - Or bombs.
  - I dunno, somehow I doubt archery would work very well against tanks.
Honor is important in American urban gang culture. This may be an answer to the "open question" in the introduction to this article.
- Most exemplified in modern culture with the Italian Mafia/Cosa Nostra, street gangs like the notorious ones in LA, not so much.
- Eh, debatable. The Mafia preached honor and loyalty to the family, the black and latino gangers to the Hood, and many a Prisoner has boasted about being a 'Righteous Con', few really give more than lipservice to any code of conduct, they are all just criminals and there really is no honor among theives.
- To call random gangs honorable is a flat-out joke, they demand respect because they have guns and superior numbers at a given time, that's it, they aren't proud warrior guys they are common thugs and hoodlums, they are more like the opposite of proud warrior guy, they're cowards and shouldn't be described in any other way.
This troper is surprised to find this article lacks a mention of the Japanese, particularly the Samurai, whom in his view many Proud Warrior Race cultures are based upon. The main Proud Warrior Race Guy being Tokugawa who unified the country by warfare.
- This troper is still trying to figure out whether the Japanese are a perfect example of this trope or a complete aversion of it.
  - It probably depends on the era. If you're talking about from the 1930s to 1945, then they would certainly count because of how militaristic they became. If you were talking about the pre-Tokugawa era, possibly. Nowadays, they're mostly an aversion, save for a minority of nationalists. But those guys are usually ignored.

Edited by Weaver Hide / Show Replies

Viv Since: Jun, 2016

Apr 28th 2010 at 5:35:51 AM •••

Agreed. Restore it.

Ghilz Since: Jan, 2001

May 14th 2010 at 10:49:16 AM •••

No, keep it cut, for the love of god. Half of it is people who don't know what a caste is, the other half is pandering to often inaccurate racial stereotypes. And lets not even get into all the natter and Did Not Do The Research.

76.27.231.166 Since: Dec, 1969

May 15th 2010 at 10:52:03 AM •••

Doesn't the word "outdated" imply that it was once true? Perhaps another word might be more logical, unless that is what you wish to imply?

DialgaX Since: Jan, 2001

May 15th 2010 at 3:06:23 PM •••

I wanted to imply that it was once true (as seen by the British).

Viv Since: Jun, 2016

May 22nd 2010 at 12:03:09 AM •••

How is the definition of caste wrong? Rajputs were raised to be soldiers, much of the officer class of the Indian army today is either Rajput or Sikh.

Warrior cults have been found throughout history. Historically, the Spartans were militarily ineffective, but the guys themselves were the defintion of warrior race guy.

BigT Since: Jan, 2001

Jun 19th 2010 at 4:57:39 PM •••

Just put in that real life examples must go to the discussion page first. And keep the British example.

Everyone Has An Important Job To Do

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