Discussion Main / ProperLady

Ok, here is the entry about Catelyn Stark. I deleted it from the page for now — mainly to fix the example indentation of the remaining example.

[ETA: If we agree she fits, I'm gonna put the example back of course.]

I think she's not an example — mainly because her social standing is higher than an upper-middle class lady who lives for her children, always agrees with her husband and never wants anything of her own. Lady Stark is basically an equivalent of a queen, not a reigning queen, but a king's wife and then a king's mother. They both depend on her counsel. Yes, she's defined by her motherhood and she tries to provide for her family and then when it gets serious, she tries to save her kids no matter what, so perhaps she fits this trope... but the entry about her is very biased and influenced by readers who obviously hate her.

• Lady Catelyn "Cat" Tully-Stark. She is calm and a source of wisdom and advice to others, while maintaining her role in society. The Tully motto is "Family, Duty, Honor," and those are the words she lives by.
  • THIS PART ABOVE IS TRUE

• Catelyn can be considered more of a subversion of the Proper Lady. At first glance she looks like one, but she is a Wicked Stepmother, spiteful, petty, arrogant, willful and someone that Did Not Think This Through. She is the one that kickstarts the War of the Five Kings that sees her family destroyed, and keep interfering and making more and more disastrous choices.

That is not accurate interpretation of the story and the character.

• She's not a Wicked Stepmother. She's just distant to Jon Snow because he's her husband's bastard son. In that society, she's not supposed to be his adoptive mother or parental figure. Importantly, she's not abusive, just cold and not loving towards him.
• those rapid-fire adjectives and epithets:
  • spiteful (I don't recall anything of that sort)
  • petty (ditto, when and how?)
  • arrogant (possibly, but she's one of the top aristocrats in the feudal society, both by her birth and by marriage; no wonder she can be entitled)
  • willful (she's determined to save her family, but she hardly does bad things on purpose)
  • someone that Did Not Think This Through (this is correct but that hardly counts as subversion of Proper Lady; however, the thing that she takes an active role and doesn't agree with men all the time in the story might count as subversion)
  • She is the one that kickstarts the War of the Five Kings that sees her family destroyed (LOL; so many events lead to that war; and if anything, Catelyn and the Starks are those who are morally superior to others in the war; if if can be traced to one person, the war instigator would be Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish)
  • she keeps interfering (yes, she does, because she wants her family to survive and win)
  • making more and more disastrous choices (as do other characters in the setting; she's not an omniscient character who knows an outcome of the events as its author or readers)

Is there a limit on how high a Proper Lady's social status is? The page calls "The High Queen" a "A regal variety," and there a few queen and princess characters listed as examples, even a couple of Greek goddesses.

I'm not aware of it.

However, I generally feel people don't consider social status and are way too flexible with our "tropes are flexible" rule. For example, Rebellious Princess is applied to any aristocrats, girls from old money or just generally girls from filthy-rich families. Spirited Young Lady specifically defines her social class and background (usually upper-middle class — scholar's/ clergyman's/ gentleman's daughter), but it often gets applied to princesses or queens on the one hand, or any cheeky girl who might be very poor or of the working class on the other. (SYL is a very classist trope.)

Princesses could very well be listed on the Princess Classic page because it's a related subtrope (or probably a sister trope). Princess Classic is a Victorian trope directly influenced by the Proper Lady ideal (if the trope description is to be believed).

Greek Goddesses as Proper Ladies seem like misuse to me. That's completely different culture — ancient Greece and Victorian Britain. Greek Goddesses are too powerful and have a mind of their own (they're never shown as docile creatures who only pamper their husbands or children). European culture in general is very much influenced by Greek mythology but this seems like twisting definitions and mixing several concepts together (see Trope Decay).

In the mythology folder, I think only Penelope might be a fit. She's really domestic and defined by her devotion to her husband; she's faithful to him, no matter what.

Virgin Mary seems like she fits as well.

Do examples have to be British and/or Victorian-era? I'm going to remove Hera either way, because her Yandere tendencies don't fit. I don't know enough about Hestia to tell whether she fits, but it's a Zero-Context Example, so I'll comment it out for now.

Should Princess Classic, The High Queen, and other tropes listed as "related tropes" be differentiated in the description, either as subtropes or sister tropes?

Do examples have to be British and/or Victorian-era?

— no, one nationality would be too restrictive; there are examples who are American, Canadian or European and they certainly fit

— if I understand the trope correctly, it was codified in Victorian era in Britain, but there are certainly earlier examples (some would be found in Shakespeare no doubt, there will be some in Restoration works, there are definitely some in Regency period works like Jane Austen's novels and there are some post-Victorian examples from Edwardian era; the description puts the end to the 1950's)

— the trope description certainly needs help in my opinion, but that would need approval from Trope Repair Shop or Trope Description Improvement Drive forum thread

So Greek goddesses could fit in theory, if there are any with the personality, which would probably be rare, if there are any at all.

I don't think a character being the equivalent of a queen consort or queen mother would disqualify a character, although having not read the series, I can't determine much about how well Catelyn specifically fits.

BTW, can I ask you, bookworm11, what do you think about the examples in the Professional Wrestling folder? They all seem like misuse to me. But I know next to nothing about wrestling and how it generally plays tropes.

(I asked in Is this an example? discussion, but so far no one has answered.)

I also know next to nothing about wrestling. The mentions of the Lady of War and Silk Hiding Steel tropes suggest fighting and the trope aren't incompatible, but the description also talks about being well-mannered. Some of the current examples sound like they don't meet that part.

Ideal Hero, maybe?

Certain subtypes of Proper Lady also have clear Spear Counterparts, like: Princess Classic > Prince Charming, Southern Belle > Southern Gentleman etc.

A proper gentleman would have Old-School Chivalry.

Here comes yet another suggestion: Quintessential British Gentleman.

I'm sure you're not; it might also depend on your religious background. I think it's OK though, because we're talking about a Victorian ideal, so it's sort of period-appropriate?