Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Per TRS, Bishōnen's examples are being moved here because that page is being turned into an Anime Fanspeak Definition-Only Page, while Pretty Boy itself is now In-Universe Examples Only:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1646922313052598000&page=1#comment-24
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Redundant Trope, Sloppy Article, All-Around Bad, started by Palmon18 on Oct 14th 2011 at 4:19:35 PM
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Merge with Bishonen/Agent Peacock, started by Palmon18 on Oct 14th 2011 at 6:13:50 PM
There is no Planet B
Removed from the page:
- Arthur Morgan from Red Dead Redemption 2 although he could be considered more of a Hunk is considered a "pretty boy", especially if you have him clean-shaven and keep his appearance well-groomed.
Discussed here. He appears to be a tough Hunk.
If you think his appearance and characterization fit the trope Pretty Boy, please comment.
Well... apparently there was a big fight about this in 2011, but the fact that some people got stupid about it doesn't mean it's not true... there shouldn't be separate tropes. The fact that there are separate tropes is a huge generalization. A few people have pointed out examples from Japanese media that fall into what TV Tropes calls an exclusively Western form of pretty boy (e.g. Edward Elric), and there are examples of Western media that have what TV Tropes calls an anime-exclusive type. There's no reason to make the distinction, and if there ever was one, it's outdated now.
I made this Idolized Julius Kingsley icon back when Akito first came out, and now that the crossover is actually happening, I don't care.
There is no Planet B
Zero Context Examples from this article:
Comic Books
- Lucifer from The Sandman comics.
- Some of the Elfquest elves are depicted this way, particularly Gliders.
- In Final Crisis Aftermath: Dance, the successor to Boss Bosozoku of Big Science Action (Japan's main superhero team) is Boss Bishonen.
- Billy "The Beaut" Russo used to be this, but after The Punisher got through with him... well there's a reason he is now called "Jigsaw".
- Wallace Wells from Scott Pilgrim is definitely this...in the comics, anyway.
- Dodge, the Big Bad of Locke & Key.
- Nightwing. It's even canon.
Film
- Shua in Sky Blue.
- The historical figure Synesius of Cyrene is portrayed as this in Agora. His role is played by Rupert Evans.
- Jude Law's character in Wilde
- Jude Law's character in Alfie
- John Connor as portrayed by Edward Furlong in Terminator 2 is a younger example.
- Jack (Leonardo DiCaprio) in Titanic.
- Leonardo DiCaprio in Man in the Iron Mask.
- R in Warm Bodies, who is portrayed by Nicholas Hoult. There's no denying he is incredibly sexy despite being a zombie.
- Tom Hiddleston's Loki in Thor and The Avengers.
- Rancis Fluggerbutter from Wreck It Ralph.
(Note: More cleaning up the article later on)
Deleted:
- Pretty much every character Jude Law plays, but especially in Wilde and Alfie, where that was pretty much his character description.
Pretty much is Word Cruft. We want concrete examples.
Edited by 77.48.59.193 Hide / Show Replies
- Johnny Depp, in nearly every role◊ he's ever played (less so than usual◊ in Edward Scissorhands, least of all in the later part◊ of The Libertine.)
This violates Example Indentation. And remember that Weblinks Are Not Examples.
Not a concrete example:
- Adam Beach. That plains Indians, despite being tall, have been considered the contemporary version of this trope for centuries, helps.
Weblinks Are Not Examples and Examples Are Not Recent.
- This teaser trailer for the upcoming How To Train Your Dragon 2, which takes place after a five-year Time Skip, ends on a shot of a now 20-year-old Hiccup. You may pick up your jaw now.
This trope is extremely redundant with Bishonen. Why did we even separate them? I think we should really put them back together.
AND SINCE TWO PEOPLE BELOW ME ARE BEING PETTY LITTLE BITCHES I WILL MAKE AN EDIT: This trope not only is redundant, but stupid. If we really need a difference in the tropes, for crap's sake, don't just take the non-anime tropes from the Bishonen article and slap them here with three lines of an intro. That's very unprofessional in terms of writing and editing.
Naturally, when TRS opens again once someone actually clears out the useless ones from months ago, I will make this into a TRS. Until then: discuss.
EDIT EDIT: Okay, so the TRS was closed because I was told we have a nice discussion going on here. Huh.
Edited by Palmon18 Hide / Show Replies
I firmly support this. Or we can just rename "Bishonen". Call it "Pretty Boy" and be done with it.
Anime fans want to have an entry for the anime slang bishonen and everybody else wants something that makes sense. That's why we have both.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
There are video games based on anime. Why is it here? For example, the Dissidia examples.
I say move the VG-which-has-anime-feels (JRPG ones, etc) to Bishōnen and keep the Western ones here (such as Johnny Cage)
Anime fans need to get over themselves sometimes.
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Seriously... as I said, the anime fans need to get over themselves sometime.
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
I could say the same concerning non anime fans since Bishonen is a pretty common term here to describe the "pretty boy" definition so I can see where they are coming from if they want to merge some of the definition there so there is really no need for snarky comments if they felt the Pretty Boy article is unecessary
But Japanese pretty boys and Western pretty boys are usually very different. Bishies usually have to be very young and have no masculine features.
I cut up one dozen new men and you will die somewhat, again and again.
Now you're just hair-splitting. Do we really need Pretty Boys, But in Japan? Tropes Are Flexible, remember? And that's all "Bishōnen" are" Pretty Boys, But in Japan, despite the fact that the fanboys fervently wish differently.
Its the Bishōnen article that's not necessary, Legato.
Edited by Worldmaker Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Still cant just take out an article just because YOU dont feel that it's necessary. Also you are wrong on the definition of Bishonen. Bishonen are attractive guys with no masculine features or, as some would call em, effeminate looking guys. Pretty boys are attractive guys but actually maintain a form of masculinity.
What part of "The Same But More Specific" went past you?
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
I see that Tropes are a nice place to just look at tropes. Cant say the same when it comes to conversing with people given the amount of rude posters here
Ad hominem is a logical fallacy for a reason. Care to answer the question?
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
There really is nothing wrong with having a anime specific article while Pretty Boy could be used for the Western Audience. If the definitions are both similar. Better idea than the "to hell with anime fans" attitude
Edited by legato
Okay... but if we're going to have specific pages that focus on how a general trope is used in Japanese cartoons, then let's have articles specifically for comic book examples of tropes. And film-specific. And Professional wrestling-specific. And television-specific articles.
That would be only fair, after all. Anime fans aren't unique and special snowflakes, so why should they get special treatment?
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Isn't that what Pretty Boy is supposed to be? A westernized version of the bishonen trope? Also I'm sensing that you want to get rid of the Bishonen article due to some personal dislike of it instead of providing a legit, non-personal reason as to why one should get rid of the article
Well, of course, because no rational person could ever just disagree with the Fan Myopic opinion that Anime needs its own trope pages just because its Anime. Nope... the only reason why someone would feel that way is because they hate anime. Has nothing to do with thinking that giving any specific fandom special treatment. It can only be because of hatred!
And I didn't say we need to divide TV Tropes into "Western" and "Eastern". Since you insist that "it shows up in a Japanese Cartoon" is enough of a difference in a trope to justify a new page, I am saying that we shouldn't just stop with cartoons. Give every media their own trope pages, regardless of how universal the trope is.
Because that's what you're suggesting: if Anime is so special it deserves its own trope pages, even when the only difference is "its in a Japanese cartoon", then you must agree we need to create tropes of "its in a French film" and "its in a Hungarian television show" and "its on a British record album" and "its in a play from Rwanda". Because that's only fair.
So... what do you suggest we call the Pretty Boy, But in Rwanda page?
Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Could do without the knee jerk response. Is this how Tropes Posters treat others who are just voicing their concerns?
Edited by legato
Moderator Speaking
If you find that you cannot discuss the topic with out making sweeping generalizations about what the other person is thinking, don't post in the discussion.
Keep it civil
<Mod Voice>
Added to the above, questions of whether a trope should exist or should be merged with another trope, etc, go in Trope Repair Shop in the forums. It does not belong in Discussion pages.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Self-censored
Where do we discuss it now that the TRS is over-clogged, Fighteer?
Edited by Worldmaker Being in a Japanese-produced work is not enough of a difference to warrant its own trope.
Right here. Until the mods actually close some of the useless TRS pages, we continue. For crap's sake, it's been ten days.
The threads are closed by you guys. The mods just push the button. When are you going to close some of the useless TRS pages?
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
It is a yellow triangle with an exclamation point in it.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Well, the mods aren't psychic. A notification has to be made in some way.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
I'm not saying it's bad, I just assumed the report button was only to be used for stuff like hate speach and spam. You know, ban-able stuff.
Excuse me? Did you just lock the TRS I made after I was told to move the discussion there?
What is there to discuss? This article is the result of a compromise between the anime fandom and everyone else. It stays. We have already spent way too much time on this non-issue.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
(Pardon me, I used a friends account accidentally. I'm actually Kokoriko)
Anyway, where exactly should I talk about this: here or TRS, because if this is not settled soon I will take this into my own hands (which is probably what I should have done in the first place). What's there to compromise, anyway? Did the anime fans not like the chocolate in their peanut butter?
Edited by Palmon18
It was locked and placed in the morgue because your opening post was just ranting.
I cut up one dozen new men and you will die somewhat, again and again.
No threats, dude. In fact, go away.
Edited by FastEddie Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Seriously, why can't we just have Bishōnen as the one and only term for this? Why rename Bishonen? Why "appease" anyone? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Basically, what's the difference between Bishōnen and Pretty Boy? What's the contrast? That Bishōnen are more effeminate? Androgynous? While Pretty Boy still have their masculinity? Because, animation, comics, and games, have more of a Pretty Boy version if you take all the examples used in actual ANIME. If we are to take this notable rift seriously, then we have to split them up, because, say, Edward Elric, doesn't fit androgynous, no/barely any muscles, or effeminate. Or better yet, Dragon Ball. Or some other anime descriptions. You can tell they're men.
If they are in fact the same meaning, then I find this to be really pointless. More of a tiresome hassle than it needs to be, including the cleaning up.
Edited by TNS
It's funny,the whole reason I went to the disscusion was to see if someone started a topic about this because I was wondering the same thing. Although I guess, TNS's explanation makes sense. But then shouldn't someone change the description of the basic trope in the Playing With section of Bishōnen? It's a kind of confusing. Though if it turns out there is no difference between the two, then I suggest we stick with Pretty Boy and discard Bishōnen. Seeing how the site's in English, it just makes more sense. Also I had some trouble pronouncing a couple of tropes with Japanese names. Not to mention, it'd probably be easier to translate an English word in English letters than a Japanese word in English letters.
Edited by 216.99.32.45
MagBas
wrt In-Universe Examples Only: if a character is explicitly described as pretty in a book, I assume he counts... if he is then portrayed in a film by an actor who matches the book description quite closely, but no-one in the film comments on his looks, does the film version still count as an example (under the assumption that the casting was intentionally meant to make him pretty to match the book description, so it's not JUST my opinion), or not (since it's not explicitly stated by any character in the film)?