Am I the only one who sees a slight bigotry against skinny people in this article? I know that female body type expectations are crazy, but there are people who are actually size zero naturally, skinniness is not evil, skinniness isn't an unnatural state for women (or men), people are like that.
"Whoa" Keanu Reeves Hide / Show Replies
No, you've got a valid point. :) I think at some point this has to become a Subjective Trope, and while editors are good about removing the more extreme statements, if you find any bias still lurking, pls by all means remove to this page and let the community take a look.
Thank you for saying what I was thinking. It's not too bad, but it seems to have a bite to it. That's all.
Ha, I can sense some underlying hostility in this article.
You watch me, just watch me. I'm calling- I'm calling. And one day all will know...
So, is this trying to describe a trope, or go on a moral crusade over obesity and body-image in America? I ask because the main page goes pretty overboard on the "young men are the root cause (of all evil) of women's body image problems" rants, without any proof other than the author's opinion. Shouldn't we just pull all that and leave the page actually, you know, describing the trope?
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Yes, if you feel the page can be cleaned up to be more neutral, go for it. Although mirr1 overstates the case a bit above, this trope is supposed to be about the abnormal: how in Hollywood's worldview really thin people can be pudgy. On the other hand, merely preferring people to be in shape — even assuming that fit, healthy bodies may be more appealing on several levels than the results of laziness/bad habits/self-indulgence — is not wrong.
There's the whole Bridget Jones thing, where British and American values clashed; to look plausible as a British thirtysomething, Renée Zelwegger had to put on two and a half stone (and whoo boy, there's another little difference... that's about thirty pounds to Americans). The point is, to British eyes she did not look "fat" at all - she was pretty hot, her face and figure looked right. Even if in the film she persisted in weighing herself in American units, which after all the effort spent in making RZ convincingly British was a letdown. British women would say they are nine stone ten, for instance, not a hundred and thirty-six pounds).
The character in the film who said men like an arse they can park a bike in and thighs they can grab hold of was enunciating a basic truth. We can export Kate Moss, agree she looks good in theory, give her a bye for being in a trade calling for professional anorexics, and then point out that "emaciated stick insect" is not how we like our women to look. In the film "Bridget Jones", RZ slims down to her target weight - something which would only just be acceptable to Americans - and is tolds by a room full of Brits she's over-done it and taken too much off.
I hear she had to slim down to anorexic stick insect on her return to the USA. And that's a hell of a shame.
It makes you wonder how the voluptuous actresses of old, like Marilyn Monroe and Jayne Mansfield, might fare in the modern Hollywood.... my suspicion is that they'd be overlooked and told to lose a lot of weight.
Edited by AgProv Male, early sixties, Cranky old fart, at least two decades behind. So you have been warned. Functionally illiterate in several languages.
Can we not use "anorexic" to mean "thin"?
You watch me, just watch me. I'm calling- I'm calling. And one day all will know...
How about you idiot "Fat Acceptance" movement morons learn a new little thing called "Body Mass Index". If your BMI is over 25, you're fat. If it's not, then you're fine. God, only in America. You know, there's a reason why we're being made fun of as being obese. With idiots like you making it seem "normal", then we really will become a country full of fatasses.
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See, buddy, there's this thing called "manners". Do try to look it up sometime, okay?
Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.
It might also help if the Powers That Be didn't move the BMI whenever it struck them as convenient.
Trump delenda est
BMI is an laughably terrible measure of whether or not someone is at a healthy weight. Among numerous issues, BMI doesn't take into account the fact that muscle is pretty damn heavy, nor that there's many different builds that can be seen at any height. There are far more appropriate and accurate ways to determine whether someone is overweight; that is, ones that actually measure your body fat (shocking, I know). Many (obviously not all, but still) people that would be considered "overweight" based on BMI alone are actually well within the healthy range for body fat percentage.
Does Mae Whitman (in her roles on Arrested Development and the Scott Pilgrim movie, at least) count?
Has there been much talk about the actress or her characters being fat, either in the series/movie or by the fandom? If so definitely. If not then no.
Trump delenda est
Okay, so apparently there's a war on because of the whole 'Hollywood Pudgy' deal. It's true, BMI isn't 100% accurate, and the media, for some reason, is afraid of actually using fat people to portray fat people. However, this trope isn't about actual fatasses. It's about people with stockier builds being labeled as supposedly 'fat' when in reality they're at a pretty healthy weight.
I'm technically considered 'skinny' if not downright 'boney,' but I'm not sure if Hollywood would say I'm actually fat. The way TV, magazines, etc portray 'fat' and 'thin' is one of the main reasons why so many teens develope eating disorders.
Ju- they develop them because they're mentally unwell. Not because Hollywood "forces" them to find themselves fat. How ridiculous and blame-throwing.
Not all that ridiculous, snowviolet. From NEDA (National Eating Disorders Association:
>There is no single cause of body dissatisfaction or disordered eating. But, research is increasingly clear that media does indeed contribute and that exposure to and pressure exerted by media increase body dissatisfaction and disordered eating.
https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/media-body-image-and-eating-disorders
As someone with an eating disorder, I don't think I would have developed it, media or no, without some of the other negative influences in my life. That said, most movies feature only a single body type, one that most people cannot or do not want to attain. Saying that beauty only comes in a single size, and then saying that beauty is a person's most important attribute, is a great formula for if not forcing then definitely encouraging people to do whatever necessary to attain that size.
Hey "Fat" ladies?
There are men, myself included, that think you're totally totally gorgeous. I'm serious here. If you can see ribs, it's squick to me, not beauty.
Just had to say that.
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Why do people think a person can be either skinny or flabby? Ever heard of a thing called "athletic figure"? Only strong and fit body can be beautiful.
Might want to watch it there with the absolute declarations, buddy.
The human definition of beauty often comes from what is perceived as the body of someone who is high-class and successful. Back then, that meant people with the most food, meaning the most attractive figures used to be what we would now call obese. Now days, we have common, cheap, unhealthy food (at least in so-called developed countries), so being fat would imply being poorer. Being fit also implies that you have the free time (and the wealth to have free time) to keep yourself fit. Again, this assuming you're in a culture that has absorbed Western values about what is considered attractive.
On a different note, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nprhxc2Lxc
And also because being fit simply is much more visually appealing (and physically more comfortable to touch) than rolls and a flabby stomach. If you like that, fine, but I notice the chubby chasing has gone way, way, way, way up since the obesity rate has as well. Huh. Guess that guy pretending that men liking fat women was a "natural" thing wasn't right. Imagine that!
Am I the only one who sees the page image and thinks "She looks normal except someone shrank her head in Photoshop" ?
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Not anymore! Also, is it appropriate to forbid Real Life examples while having one as the image?
Edited by humanpunk
What the hell is that "Hollywood People Regular = Regular People Thin"? Are you trying to imply that all regular people are flabby or that, say, having just a little bit of belly is perfectly okay? I don't see any reasons why regular people can't have good figires. If you in America already gave up and decided that normal=doesn't yet have to worry about the heart attack, I seriously pity you. It's a step towards degradation.
Edited by mirrr1 Hide / Show Replies
Why it's another America hater! Are you sure you're not doing it just to seem "Cool" and "Edgy"?
Blue Pacific, signing off...
I know I shouldn't reply to the Troll... The point is what would be considered "Regular" by a TV show or movie is often in reality a size and weight that is difficult to impossable for most people to achieve. Often the characters portrayed as "fat" are actually a more natural, healthy body size. As in BEING BELOW A CERTAIN WEIGHT IS JUST AS UNHEALTHY AS BEING OVERWEIGHT. This doesn't mean that being 400 lb. is okay, as being too heavy will cause too much stress on your organs and cause them to shut down, killing you. But you unfortunately seem to be ignoring, or blissfully ignorant of the fact that being underweight can cause your body to canabalize itself for nutrients causing brittle bones and making it so that a head cold most people could shake off will put you in the grave.
In The Ether- please look up the word troll before using it. A friendly suggestion!
And please... being slightly underweight (as many healthy people apparently are, according the the very incorrect BMI and their money-hungry doctors) is not bad. Being overweight, however, that is a pressure on your frame your body cannot take, nor is it meant to.
Removed for being a misleading summary and not fitting the trope:
- A Slate columnist scolded an emotionally abused trophy wife for inviting her husband's displeasure by "letting herself go" and gaining weight after having a child. The woman's size? 5'5" and 145 pounds, which is within the normal and healthy range by BMI standards.
The actual column, here, is about a husband who isn't attracted to his wife anymore after she gained weight. Nowhere does it say in the that she's an "emotionally abused trophy wife."
The columnist also directly says, "It’s true you are not at an alarming weight for your height. But 30 extra pounds in a short amount of time is concerning. I assume you don’t plan to put on 10 pounds a year for the foreseeable future, which would fairly quickly land you in the unhealthy area." It's clear that the columnist doesn't find weighing 145 lbs at 5'5" a problem in itself, but moreso the rapid change and potential for further weight gain. The columnist also urges the wife to figure out if there's another cause of concern, like depression, behind these changes, despite her new weight not being unhealthy in itself. The weight itself is never stated to be a problem.
Anyway, the trope is supposed to be about media labeling normal-sized characters fat, while here it's a personal problem between a husband and a wife.
Edited by puddingpie
Okay, there's a lot of flaming. Firstly, I would like to point to 24.102.228.152 BMI is a horrible measurement of fitness and was created over 140 years ago with little variation by a man who was a social physicist. He had a doctorate in MATHIMATICS. Quetelet was a very smart man who basically created criminology, but he was in no way a medical proffessional. If anybody wants to get a realistic idea of if they're healthy or not find a Body Fat Calculator and someone willing to help you measure yourself, or spring to find somewhere you can take a hydrostatic weighing.
Now that that's out of the way, I hope that people out there realize that it is ignorant to make broad , all inclusive statements like "being a size fourteen is over weight", or "being a size zero is horribly underweight". People's body types can have a much bigger effect on what you're ideal weight is than hight. Some women out there are naturally petite or lean, while there are others built athletically or darn near rivaling lumberjacks. You can't use the same yardstick on every person. I think that telling a healthy weight, or at least if someone is a healthy weight, aught to be pretty intuitive. If individual bones and tendons are showing, the person is way too skinny. If a person's waist curves outwards instead of inwards they need to drop some pounds. And everyone's ideal weight has a little bit of wiggle room, so being a little thin or a little chubby isn't going to cause huge health problems. If anyone needs to qualify what "a little" is, go check with a medical proffessional. We can't see you and, as I said before, different body types means different ideal weights and I doubt very many people writing here have a strong medical backround.
Cut this:
- * You would never know that Paris Geller from Gilmore Girls is much more curvy and full beneath the large sweaters, frumpy colored pants and other things that the wardrobe department forced Liza Weil to wear in order to give her a 'sidekick' look compared to the quite thin Alexis Bledel.
So my edit got pulled. I can see an argument for it toeing the wrong side of flame bait, but we really need a 'ymmv one in five americans are obese, this is a country that has a distorted concept of what fat/skinny actually is'. Except you know, more tactful.
Because we're hitting a point where people are throwing in examples which by any marker are fat. I'm sorry, but if you're a five foot women hitting healthy weight for a six six man, this isn't hollywoods ridiculous view.
"When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp. Hide / Show Replies
There should be no mention of YMMV anywhere on a main page. It just invites natter, flame wars, and talking in the main page. If you think there are examples that don't fit, post them on the discussion page and give a reason. Don't post weasel words on the main page.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The issue is that it's inherently ambiguous, and given the subject matter, you are always going to have arguments and different boundries.
Now this doesn't make the article useless, but I am not going to go through and tag a third of the examples as useless (which talking honestly is about what I'd need to strip out of the piece), and then get into long arguments over every single one. Someone will draw the line looser then me, some tighter - but either we set some guidelines which will leave out valid examples, or draw it so loose as to be meaningless (say 'No one over 300lbs!'), or we point out that this is inherently open to differing opinions.
Because either you do that, you shunt it over to 'subjective', or you leave it as is and re-title it 'fat acceptance'.
Edit: I would be opposed to putting it in subjective because I think it can be salvaged rather then it being left to die.
Edited by revert IncoG5nito "When you cut your finger, I do not bleed." Response of a man who lived on the outskirts of a concentration camp.
Sandor, would you please be specific about at at least a few of the examples you have in mind? This conversation would, I think, be more productive if we could get a more concrete idea of what you mean.
Cut all this:
- * Political commentator Rush Limbaugh said that Michelle Obama wasn't fit to lead a campaign against childhood obesity because she lacks the figure and was seen eating ribs at a resturant. Let me repeat. Overweight, loudmouth, exposed hypocrite RUSH LIMBAUGH was saying MICHELLE OBAMA wasn't skinny enough to lead a "Let's Move!" campaign. He also criticizes her because she has been seen eating ribs and burgers in public. Because a person can't possibly eat anything other than salad and tofu while still maintaining a healthy weight and lifestyle!
** If you read the whole thing, you'll note that Rush actually invoked this trope.
** Justified in that the typical definition of "healthy" when pushed by Democrats in particular (and the odd Republican) isn't a mix of nutrients, it's vegetarian. There's also the issue that Michelle Obama's "Let's Move" campaign has a political component that actively favors taxing or banning foods like ribs or hamburgers, or at least makes it nigh-impossible for children to actually get them.
This was just removed:
I hope it's not too much trouble but may I ask why? Too X, Just X or something else? Because she's said how annoying the "you need to be skinny" comments are, and he gets it a lot too even though he's one of the skinnier guys on the site.
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Needs clarification and a better description
, started by captainpat on Jan 28th 2011 at 9:00:09 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman