Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Split? Rewrite?
, started by MegaJ on Nov 17th 2010 at 7:42:46 AM
I am confused about what this trope is. It seems to be covering several different phenomena. Is it all of them? I've seen most of these in-use in examples of the trope across the wiki.
1. The existence of prejudice against dark-skinned people even within darker-skinned groups, and the converse. This important and relevant to media, but seems more like a Useful Notes thing. 1b. This happening as a plot point or is commented on in a work (this makes the most sense to me as a trope). 2. The casting of mixed-race actors, in any context. This seems like trivia to me and not necessarily conveying a lot of meaning about the work. 3. The casting of light-skinned actors in a context where they are a token non-white person, because it makes them seem "less black" and "more relatable" to white target audiences or white characters within the work. 4. The casting of light-skinned actors in a story when their race is not commented on or immediately relevant. Also seems like trivia, although could be related to Five-Token Band in some cases. 5. The casting of light-skinned actors either exclusively or in lead roles in works with a mostly black (or whatever the ethnicity in question is) cast, for reasons similar to Hollywood Homely (people who conform to beauty standards end up in movies).
1b, 3, and 5 seem like tropes, although they convey somewhat different information. Reasoning for 5 could also work for 3, although seems subjective. Obviously this is an issue that touches on many complex cultural values and is hard to summarize closely. But it would be nice to have a better sense of what is meant by the trope. Some examples do seems to be saying something about cultural values, while others (2, 4) don't in my opinion have a lot of content but appear often in examples. Also, 3-5 seem like YMMV, similar to the appearance tropes in Hollywood Style.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax" Hide / Show Replies
6. Adaptations that make a character more white-looking while preserving their canonical ethnic identity. 6b. Use of makeup/lighting/filters/post production effects to make a dark-skinned actor appear more light-skinned (as with Beyonce page image).
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Blow it out your ass.
Honestly, the picture looks so surreal that I am not actually paying attention to her looks but the fake-looking glossy skin tone.
There are black women who have a nice, light catching quality to their skin. But not a fucking metallic sheen.
Edited by MatthewTheRaven
The following Literature examples have been commented out for being Zero Context Examples. Also, a Zero-Context Example example warning was added to the text at the beginning of the page.
- The whole point of Don't Play In The Sun.
- Ditto The Blacker the Berry by Wallace Thurman.
- Feast Of All Saints touches on this.
Added because I couldn't edit my earlier post.
The following Literature examples have been commented out for being Zero Context Examples. Also, a Zero-Context Example example warning was added to the text at the beginning of the page.
You Give Me Fever
The Indian example comes off as Eurocentric. Caste comes from a Portuguese word that means skin color so somehow Indian nobles were light skinned?
India's language have roots far older than Latin, let alone Portuguese. Indoeuropean starts in India and makes its way to Europe, not the other way around. It seems more plausible that invasions from Caliphate groups and British who valued light skin caused Indians to take up some of those values rather than it being something fundamental to Indian culture right down to the roots of language. But I'm also apprehensive about even having that conversation on a trope page (seems a little off topic) so I think I am just going to delete it.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Question, does anyone know that quote from Archer where he and Lana are arguing about how black she is? I think it's a pretty good example of the quote without having to go off a Lil Wayne lyric.
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Archer: You're black...ish. Lana: Ish!? Archer: Well what's the word for it, Lana? You freaked out when I said quadroon!
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
I'm confused, what is this trope about? Black actors have it better today as they get roles (the first paragraph) but now they don't get roles because just recently people don't want black people in movies because for a long time being white has been a sign of beauty? I get that it's somehow about black actors being discriminated against, but could someone please clarify the description? I can't because we don't really have these problems where I'm from.
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Basically this trope is about portraying Black peoples appearance as closer to a white persons, such as making the skin appear whiter. It is as just having a black person in the cast to "satisfy" those who would see Monochrome Casting as bad.
I feel like this trope could use some changes. As it is now, it seems like a catch-all for any color related issues. It seems to applied inconsistently, and I'm honestly confused about what should and should not go here. Can we list all the light-skinned people who we believe are only famous because of bias and all the aversions who got famous in spite of being dark-skinned? Should we stick to talking about characters only rather than actors? How exactly do explicitly mixed race characters come into play? I think this trope should be simplified with more specific rules of what is this trope and possibly split into two or more tropes so that we can get into more complex issues without dumping everything all in one place.
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that's not a bad idea. although tropes are flexible and colorism effects all ethnic groups though blacks seems to be hardest hit. colorism issues are unfortunately just kinda broad anyway.
Obsidian Proboscidean
Couldn't this trope also apply to facial features? Dark skin isn't the only thing viewers associate with being black.
I'm an elephant. Rurr. Hide / Show Replies
Depends on what you mean. Different races have do have difference bone structure. Like if you seen an albino kid of African descent, you can still tell the general race from the face.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
It's super effective.
- The Law And Order Criminal Intent episode "Assassin" features a cross-over between this trope and Did Not Do The Research. The episode features Torchwood's Indira Varma as a Tamil activist under threat of assassination. Thing is, Tamil people typically have very dark skin, while Indira Varma - in common with the actors playing her family, her staff, even children on a video she shows at a public event - has relatively light skin. In addition, the character has the surname Khan - hardly a typical Tamil name. Basically, the writers thought that the Sri Lankan conflict might make an interesting backdrop for an episode, but didn't know much about Sri Lankans.
Besides the fact that Did Not Do The Research is not a valid trope, well, actually that's about it. It doesn't seem to fit the page's description, just that they were unable to FIND many Tamils in New York (or didn't know what they looked like, which can't be said for blacks).
Edited by OldManHoOh
Full metal alchemist should be in here or ambiously brown.
With Rose being pale in the manga, Dark in the anime and grossly white again in brotherhood.
Has anyone considered that part of the reasoning might be that hiring a dark black person reduces your plot options a great deal? If anything remotely bad happens to the character, or they're a villain, some dipshits are going to scream racism, and cost your company big? You can do anything you want to a white, Asian, or Ambiguously Brown character; beat them up, blow them up, push them to the Despair Event Horizon, what have you, whereas you as a writer take the aforementioned risk doing the same to a black character who's not played by Denzel Washington. So there's a certain practical aspect to it all, too.
Take Resident Evil 5, for example. 5 games of "white" (sort of) zombies is fine, but the first time the (white) protagonist fights black villains, it's armageddon. I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom takes the lesson, incorrect or not, that "black anything in game = problems", and never has another one, no matter what the context.
Edited by GamerFromJump Hide / Show Replies
Except it wasn't "Armageddon". One journalist made a remark and it went viral. Now all of a sudden one insignificant remark was spun into being this HUGE wave of people calling RE5 racist...which just isn't true. and the former part of your argument is frankly ridiculous. Especially when shows like The Wire has strong black support.
Edited by TheUrbanPrince
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Ok, this example is bugging the crap out of me.
- Averted with Light Complexioned actresses like Michael Michele, Nicole Ari Parker, Kristen Wilson, Leila Arcieri, and Rochelle Aytes as they're usually paired with black men. Although this could still have other kinds of Unfortunate Implications for black men.
So, basically this is saying if those actresses with lighter black skin get paired up with a black lead, they're making him look racist/bad/whatever? I'm not sure what this is trying to imply. Can someone give me a better explanation for this because I'm really tempted to cut it.
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Also, I noticed someone put Jessica Alba for Dark Angel as an example......
ummm...she's not black or half black. She's half Mexican (or half Mexican American). Why is she on there? It doesn't seem like she should apply to this.
Edited by Jumpingzombie
EDIT:Disregard this. I read through the description again.
Edited by Jumpingzombie
Why does this thing sound like an excuse to bitch about light skinned blacks? That's got Unfortunate Implications within itself.
Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions. Hide / Show Replies
This isn't "bitching about light skinned blacks/other races (though there is some of that in the article). There is a true problem of colorism in the media, and it is tropeable.
Tropeable, as in "leaping at anything that may be colorism", or ACTUAL colorism? Because, most of the time I see Unfortunate Implications, it's someone being oversensitive, and it sounds like this page has a lot of the former.
Edited by JackMackerel Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
Unfortunate Implications is extremely subjective, so there's no real right or wrong here. I mean, it has the subjective tag right above it. Some people think "oversenstive/PC-ness" is a defense for wrong-headed ideas so, Your Mileage May Vary. Greatly.
I've looked at the page again, and while there is some grumbling, I think most of the examples are valid points raised. There is some natter and some cases of "A dark-skinned black person was portrayed as BAD so it fits" which isn't the trope, sorta. Kinda. Maybe.
Edited by MegaJ
agreed, people using the "oversensitive card" is stating to turn it into the reverse "race card". it's as if it's a defense for completely stupid and ignorant attitudes.
Edited by TheUrbanPrince
agreed, people using the "oversensitive card" is stating to turn it into the reverse "race card". it's as if it's a defense for completely stupid and ignorant attitudes.
"She's a bit white." "OH NO DISCRIMINATION"
Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
The trope is pointing out that light-skinned blacks or other races with varying skin color are preferred and have more visibility in media than their dark-skinned counterparts. You may not like it, you may think it's "oversensitive," but no amount of grumbling will deny the fact that it happens. It happens all the time. Name five black female sex symbols that are well known and then count how many are dark-skinned.
Edited by MegaJ
The Williams sisters
I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
The Williams sisters
I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
"She's a bit white." "OH NO DISCRIMINATION"
actually it more like OH NOEZ Political Correctness Gone Mad!!, that's a very popular statement these days.
Edited by TheUrbanPrince
actually it more like OH NOEZ Political Correctness Gone Mad!!, that's a very popular statement these days.
That doesn't answer why someone who isn't dark being used in photoshoots are a bad thing.
Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
Because of the over-representation of the light-skinned black females in the media. It's put under "Unfortunate Implications." Not BAD, just the implication is well...unfortunate.
I think it's prehaps the tone of the article that's the problem. I brought this up in the old discussion page, and I'll bring it up again:
"True Blood plays it straight and then averts it with the same character: in the unaired pilot, the Black Best Friend Tara is played by the very light-skinned Brook Kerr, then for the series, the role was recast with the much much darker Rutina Wesley. The other two black characters in the show are also aversions."
How the hell can you play it straight and avert it? The specific shade of her skin was unimportant. I would say this page sees Political Correctness Gone Mad from both sides—people in support and against it.
I said it last time, I'll say it here: This trope should probably only apply when there are several black characters, and the majority (or all) of them have lighter skin. If there's a mix, it doesn't apply. That brings up the Unfortunate Implication that only darker-skinned blacks should be hired.
I think this is a valid complaint, the trope isn't "a light-skinned character being used", it has to be a glaring thing like the statement you made or in a medium/show that has few black characters (such as Video Games) and they all fit this trope. Shall we take it over to the Trope Repair Shop?
"The trope is pointing out that light-skinned blacks or other races with varying skin color are preferred and have more visibility in media than their dark-skinned counterparts. You may not like it, you may think it's "oversensitive," but no amount of grumbling will deny the fact that it happens. It happens all the time. Name five black female sex symbols that are well known and then count how many are dark-skinned."
I couldn't agree more. The problem is that every time a controversial subject shows up -especially race- that points out(what seems to be) a flaw against a certain race, we immediately get "YUR BEIN 2 SENSITIVE!!!11! It may not be pretty, you may not want to admit it exist, but it does. Take RE 4, for example. The fact that they went to Africa killing black zombies is not the issue. The fact that the main African (native, I might add) heroine has to be light skinned, complete with a british accent, which kinda goes against what is being shown. She's basically a golden brown Laura Croft. It seems as if they wanted a black character that even white people (the majority people, thusfore the majority consumer) could "relate" too. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but a perfect example. Another great example is one that doesn't even belong on the page. The titular character Naruto was suggested by his creator to be popular with the American audience because of his blond hair and blue eyes. Again, this is not a bad thing, but still something that should be noticed.
Things like this happens. We will not get anywhere if we cannot even discuss it maturely. Trying to sweep anything like this under the rug is ignorant in and of itself. I have read the original page, and it doesn't seem like a bunch of whining, just pointing out where it happens.
sims796 possibly created the first Crowning Moment Of Awesome within a discussion page.
So, apparently, every time someone casts a light-skinned African, they're not black enough? What is this implying? That light-skinned blacks are not black, or that they're pawns of the media to cater to obviously racist consumers of media?
The previous image suggested that Halle Barry would never have gotten far in the media if she was blacker than she was. Pardon me for being "lol sensitive", but that seems pretty damn unfortunate to imply she's not black and therefore can't possibly be African, ever.
I'm tired of anyone who says anything against Unfortunate Implications being labeled as "HERP DERP, YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT PC AND THUS SOME SORT OF CLOSE RACIST!!!1"
Edited by JackMackerel Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
Considering all you did was deflect my question by saying "lol un-PC", I find that ironic.
Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
"So, apparently, every time someone casts a light-skinned African, they're not black enough? What is this implying? That light-skinned blacks are not black, or that they're pawns of the media to cater to obviously racist consumers of media?"
Well, it's probably more of the latter, and it's more of a Viewers Are Morons thing where these advertising/tv/film casting agencies think that mainstream (read: white) audiences would accept a light-skinned actress (almost ALWAYS actress, not actors) would be "safer" and more attractive.
As for the Halle Berry thing, that statement wasn't implying she was "less African" but really, think about what I said upthread. How many well-known black female sex symbols can you think of? Most people would probably say Beyonce, Halle, Tyra, Mariah, Naomi Campbell and going back further, Vanessa Williams, and even further Josephine Baker, Eartha Kitt, Dorothy Dandrige. Almost ALL of these women have light skin or are But Not Too Foreign.
This trope is not saying these women aren't black or are less black. Just that usually these are the only blacks we see on TV.
ETA: Not to mention that other races are included in this trope and whether they are or aren't Western/European influenced generally have fair skin as a high beauty standard. I think it's pretty damn unfortunate to think that someone's skin color would look "just right" if they were lighter.
Edited by MegaJ
Well, it's probably more of the latter, and it's more of a Viewers Are Morons thing where these advertising/tv/film casting agencies think that mainstream (read: white) audiences would accept a light-skinned actress (almost ALWAYS actress, not actors) would be "safer" and more attractive.
Unfortunate Implications: viewers are a bunch of Eurocentric rednecks.
As for the Halle Berry thing, that statement wasn't implying she was "less African" but really, think about what I said upthread. How many well-known black female sex symbols can you think of? Most people would probably say Beyonce, Halle, Tyra, Mariah, Naomi Campbell and going back further, Vanessa Williams, and even further Josephine Baker, Eartha Kitt, Dorothy Dandrige. Almost ALL of these women have light skin or are But Not Too Foreign.
And this is bad, why? I'm not saying "lol it's good they're white", but then you can get into film and you'd see a lot of dark-skinned actresses. Does this set back blacks for any reason? Make their contributions to acceptance any less?
This trope is not saying these women aren't black or are less black. Just that usually these are the only blacks we see on TV.
Unfortunate Implications sees a lot of things.
ETA: Not to mention that other races are included in this trope and whether they are or aren't Western/European influenced generally have fair skin as a high beauty standard. I think it's pretty damn unfortunate to think that someone's skin color would look "just right" if they were lighter.
Then why the "But Not Too Black" title?
Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
"Unfortunate Implications: viewers are a bunch of Eurocentric rednecks." Correct. That is also an unfortunate implication: that the audience is too Eurocentric/racist that they won't accept a darker skinned person or find them attractive. So it's offensive to all races.
"And this is bad, why? I'm not saying "lol it's good they're white", but then you can get into film and you'd see a lot of dark-skinned actresses. Does this set back blacks for any reason? Make their contributions to acceptance any less?" It's not like there aren't any dark-skinned actresses in Hollywood, but the fact that they aren't as well-known and popular as the actresses I named above does say something. And yes, they should be commended for breaking down the doors and contributing to the arts, but I don't see anything wrong with someone pointing this out since well, most of the actresses are light-skinned.
Then why the "But Not Too Black" title? -kanyeshrug- I wasn't involved in the creation of this trope, I suppose it grew to the point where it could be expanded to other races (and I actually did a redirect to Colorism.
Just curious, do you know the history behind this trope? I think if you did, it just might make a little bit more sense.
Edited by MegaJ
"•This is a disturbingly common problem in many games with a "Create A Character" mode. In many cases, the option to play a richly dark-skinned character doesn't even exist. This is especially jarring in games which allow you to play a "Dark Elf," which is black in the most literal sense, but do not allow you to make a dark-skinned human. Sometimes, even when there are options to darken the skin, there are still no facial features or hairstyles to match. So what's left is either Ambiguously Brown or the "white person in blackface" effect. Fortunately, there are some notable exceptions."
I feel the need to point out that most games that allow Character Creation are Western RP Gs, and many many Western RP Gs focus on some sort of parallel Europe, where it would be entirely unnatural to have a black character.
However, this still applies, which is why I didn't remove it—I just feel that this should be expanded on to explain which games this trope is woefully present, and isn't presenting Fridge Logic.
Edited by helterskelter Hide / Show Replies
Never mind, already removed.
Edited by JackMackerel Half-Life: Dual Nature, a crossover story of reasonably sized proportions.
The first one doesn't really have to do with the trope, since the quote in question is about a woman saying she wouldn't date a Black man period, not that he's not Black enough.
Second one fits, though. Not sure why it was removed.
See you in the discussion pages.
No the character was saying the guy in question was too black. And that her idol should date lighter. So Yeah it fits...
You had to explain that to me. Out of context it sounds like she's saying they ought not marry black people in general, not black people who are too black.
See you in the discussion pages.
TRS consensus was to redefine the trope to be an In-Universe Examples Only trope about characters facing discrimination due to their dark skin:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16789805180.73553600&page=1#comment-15
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.