Discussion Main / BadassIsraeli

There's now a Trope Description Improvement Drive discussion about rephrasing the intro to this trope. Please comment on that thread if you have a view.

Should we possibly have a No Real Life Examples Please note on this? The morality of the IDF is... highly disputed, to say the least.

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Do we honestly think having a "Real-Life" examples section on this page is smart, especially considering the current political climate? Not only does it seem like a violation of the Rule of Cautious Wiki Editing, it feels like it blows right past that into the editorial equivalent of chucking a pipe bomb into a church. Quite literally, the most recent news I can find if I google "gal godot israel" is a huge pile of articles discussing the hugely controversial response to her tweets about Israel. Having that example on the wiki seems like it's INVITING people to start shit over it.

I know it was mentioned that this page is about fighting ability and not morality... but do we honestly think calling immoral behavior "badass" *isn't* in some way endorsing it, even accidentally???

Edited by nhojemon Don't contact me. Hide / Show Replies

This is just a small-ish edit request for a one-off mention in the trope text: to avoid geographical confusion, could the Mideast Conflict be called either that or the Arab-Israeli Conflict - since it involves more of the region than the current moniker of "Israel Palestine Conflict" implies it did? Thanks :)

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few - until you are one of the "few".

I'm moving the following examples here because they seem like "badass Jew" to me, which is not what this trope is about.

• Before modern Israel was created, Jews sometimes achieved a reputation for toughness that belies the Jewish and Nerdy stereotype:
  • Jewish mercenaries were highly prized during ancient times.
  • The Romans needed 12 legions and a comparable auxiliary force to take down the Bar Kokhba revolt. The first time Rome had to use the army dislocated on the Parthian border, that just happened to be the best troops they had. Using their four best legions, an auxiliary force just as big and reinforcements from allied countries, it took them four years to destroy the Jewish armies and another four to stop the survivors from attacking them. The second time, the Jewish revolt forced them to abandon their campaign against the Parthians when on the verge of conquering them. Given their genocidal approach to revolts and what had cost them the first two times, it just makes sense they'd use overwhelming force.
  • Hanukkah is the story of a Jewish rebel army led by Judah Maccabee (Judah the Hammer) who staged a successful revolution against the much larger and stronger Syrian Greek empire. The rabbis of the Talmud made the oil lasting for 8 days be the miracle because they didn't like the idea of a holiday about killing people.
  • In the 15th and 16th centuries, Jews achieved a reputation for being expert grapplers within the German school of fencing. There were a number of Jewish ringen masters, including Ott Jud.
  • The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, in which the Jews who had been rounded up into Warsaw fought back against the Germans. In spite of being severely outgunned, the resistance lasted several months before finally being crushed by the German army. The Israeli Holocaust Memorial day is commemorated every year on the same day as the outbreak of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
  • The Battle of Cable Street in 1938 saw London's Jews mobilising to prevent a pro-Nazi rally marching through a predominantly Jewish area. The British Union of Fascists wanted a provocative march as a method of intimidating Jews. British authorities held that the Fascists had a democratic right to free expression. Lots of policemen were deployed to allow them to march. Local Jewish organisations disagreed and mobilised, putting both to flight and preventing the march, in two days of riots and streetfighting.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground Hide / Show Replies

How about Gene Simmons, from Kiss? He's a badass Jewish boy from Israel.

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I've seen it mentioned on forums that there is good reason to suspect Levi of Attack On Titan might have Israeli ancestry.

If so, it's make him the only Anime or Manga example.

Edited by MithrandirOlorin Hide / Show Replies

In order to avert an Edit War, I'm going to bring this up here, and invite [[troper:Penzilla]] the chance to make their arguments in a structured environment.

The issue is an example in the Bible section of the trope, regarding whether or not Jael had sex with Sisera before killing him. I believe she did in fact have sex with him, given the context, while Penzilla says otherwise on account of there being no direct reference to sex (in English) in the verse where the assassination took place.

Now, for the purposes of this trope, I would say that if Jael did not sleep with Sisera, she doesn't qualify for the Badass Israeli trope, on account of the fact that all of the sexual dominance of a woman over-powering a hated man is sapped out, and we're left with a basic vamp.

On that note, i say she does qualify for the trope, due to the context of the story. She is shown to be a strong, gutsy and even borderline promiscuous woman by biblical standards (coming out of her tent to invite a lone man in - very strong sexual overtone). Furthermore, the actual translation of verse 8 of the passage says she "covered him." The general consensus among scholars is that she covered him with a blanket, akin to "tucking him in." However, the actual Hebrew word used is a mystery - nobody really knows what it means. I agree with the scholars who claim she "covered him" with her own body, because the order in which these events happen is:

1: she "cover(s) him" 2: she "(gives) him milk" 3: she "cover(s) him" AGAIN

It doesn't make sense. If "covered him" means "tucking him in", why would she do that BEFORE feeding him, and then tucking him in a second time??? Of course, this makes complete sense when "covered him" refers to sexual activity. They had sex, took a break and had something to drink, then had more sex. Perfectly reasonable.

As for context, Sisera has just lost a major battle and is running for his life. The passage makes a point of mentioning that Jael's husband, Heber, is on good terms with his king and so he would run in this direction to find shelter - traditionally, he would've gone straight to Heber's tent, but Jael comes out and invites him into her own, alone - this is actually very odd and promiscuous behaviour for a married woman of that time. Typically in the bible, whenever a man and a woman are alone together, they have sex - It Makes Sense in Context that the same would happen here.

Furthermore, I've heard all the arguments that the story is about the power of maternal action and that Sisera is rendered as helpless as a child by Jael... I don't buy it - Sisera is a general of an army that has been oppressing Israel for 20 years and he's now on the run for his life - I honestly don't think he planned to stay at Heber's very long, and "motherly hospitality" will not convince him to stay. Sex might. It's a well-known fact that men tend to fall asleep after sex, and Sisera would have been trying to avoid sleep, being on the run for his life - but sex might actually tire him out enough for Jael to deliver the blow.

As a final note, before Sisera does go to sleep, he tells Jael to "stand" at the door and if anyone asks "is a man here?", to tell them "no." This is amusing, because Sisera actually orders Jael as if he were ordering a soldier, a very masculine order. It's also amusing, because he's implied that there is no longer any masculine presence left in the room, because Jael has become dominant and Sisera has been reduced to an effeminate shell of a man - further reinforcing the theme of female dominance.

Penzilla, your response?

Edited by ginsengaddict "Get me a gun, I'm a soldier; but put me in that suit and I'm a superhero." - Gunnery Sgt Roberta "Bobbie" Draper MMC Hide / Show Replies