Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Misused
, started by miraculous on Apr 2nd 2018 at 3:35:31 PM
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Misused, started by WarJay77 on Aug 28th 2020 at 6:07:05 AM
I'm curious about the ones based on successful source material that qualify for this trope due to failures in adapting it (e.g The Golden Compass, 2014 Hercules). How does a work end up here? I was thinking of listing the Broadway adaptation of Tootsie on this page (It failed to win over younger audiences for reasons covered in the Unfortunate Implications and Values Dissonance pages, but also made a lot of changes to the film - such as cutting key characters and replacing the "Daytime soap" setting with a more cliched theatre one - which alienated older fans...)
{{Planescape}} Hijack
How is Firefly one of these at all? The premise is "the Wild West, IN SPACE". What's alienating about that?
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I'm curious about the ones based on successful source material that qualify for this trope due to failures in adapting it (e.g The Golden Compass, 2014 Hercules). How does a work end up here? I was thinking of listing the Broadway adaptation of Tootsie on this page (It failed to win over younger audiences for reasons covered in the Unfortunate Implications and Values Dissonance pages, but also made a lot of changes to the film - such as cutting key characters and replacing the "Daytime soap" setting with a more cliched theatre one - which alienated older fans...)
I'm finding the concept of Audience-Alienating Premise extremely confusing, as well as some of its examples. Isn't the work supposed to be considered a failure (or at best a "success d'estime") to qualify?
I'm especially concerned about the listing of two Classical Music works as examples, Mahler's Kindertotenlieder and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, as this is a genre I'm especially familiar with. I can see the premises of both as potentially off-putting, but both works are considered cornerstones of the Classical Music repertoire, and have been now for over a century. They are performed and recorded regularly and nothing resembling unsuccessful. If these examples are considered acceptable, you'd have to include about one-third of the operatic repertoire such as Rigoletto, I Pagliacci, Carmen, Otello, Elektra, Tosca, Madame Butterfly, Wozzeck, Salome, etc. They're all lurid, all successful, and all part of the standard literature. I'm thinking both examples should be deleted (my suspicion is that this is either a personal taste issue by the Troper or their misunderstanding of the concept more than anything else), but I don't want to do so without some feedback and blessing.
Thanks!
Given all the issues surrounding this trope, particularly concerning the aspect that the work must be a commercial failure to justify its inclusion here, I think the contextual aspects of it could use some work.
I personally think a lot of the issues stem from the trope's name. "Audience-Alienating" is a term that inherently conveys subjectivity, since the people linking this trope to a work in question are a part of that audience. Related to that, it doesn't get across the aforementioned "failed commercially"-aspect that is considered an integral part of this trope's objective use.
Perhaps a title such as "Doomed by Premise" would work better, as it properly conveys the latter aspect more than just describing the work as "Audience-Alienating", and is also less broad, reducing the risk of someone adding in a work that just didn't appeal to them specifically.
The Little Stinker
Has a mod/did a TRS officially declare that a work has to be a commercial failure to qualify for this trope? Because I've checked this page and done a bit of research here and I can find nothing stating that a work has to be a failure in order for this trope to be put on a page. I say this people people have been removing this trope from YMMV pages claiming that it needs to be a failure, although I can't find anything that says that it's a requirement. More to the point, even if it is, you can't use that for video games or TV shows/cartoons because trying to get those numbers are very hard if not near impossible.
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We haven't had any official decisions, but I think complaining cleanup decided any successful works didn't alienate them by definition. Thus all example need some objective evidence they were alienated.
In that case, the deletion of the entire Fan Works folder sounds a bit rushed. It should still be possible to measure success, even if it's not financial success, by looking at things like views and comments.
I got a "Page is too big" warning. Which sections should get their own pages?
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Probably the Anime & Manga section, at the very least. Maybe also the Film section.
By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
Perhaps we should put the "associated tropes" section on analysis page?
Wizzard
Not sure about this in the Doctor Who entry:
- This is a major issue with the Expanded Universe novels of The '90s, which turned the more-manipulative Seventh Doctor into a Knight Templar and had much more adult content in general (which filtered into the later Eighth Doctor novels). It was created by and for the adult fanbase and was successful at the time, but because it left kids (and adults who didn't want Darker and Edgier) out in the cold, it is rarely revisited/republished now because it just doesn't feel like old or new Doctor Who.
I'm not sure what they mean by "rarely revisited"; Big Finish currently have an ongoing project to create Audio Adaptations of as many of the Doctor Who New Adventures as they can; in the 00s some of the books were made available on the BBC's official Doctor Who website; there were various reprint series as part of the 50th aniversary (but republishing old novels isn't something BBC Books does on a regular basis in any event) ; and one of them was adapted into a New Series episode by the original author. And that's without getting into Breakout Character Bernice Summerfield, who is currently in competition with River Song to appear opposite as many Doctors as possible.
I suppose it's true the events of the NAs are rarely mentioned in the series itself, but neither are the New Series Adventures (there has been one throwaway reference to each that I recall). This is an official BBC policy regarding spin-offs; you shouldn't need to buy them to understand what the characters are talking about.
(I have to admit my own feelings are maybe colouring this; I was 15 when the NAs began, and I mostly hate it when things go Darker and Edgier, but I've always seen them as the best example of how to do it right - after a rocky start with unnecessary sex'n'swearing, they started to go in a direction where For Mature Readers meant actual maturity, living up to the promise of being "too broad and too deep for the small screen". IMO, anyway.)
Edited by DaibhidC
Chopshop is removing examples under the assumption that the reasons certain works are listed is that they don't fit the personal tastes of the editors.
So let me rebut:
- I am a Team Ninja fan. I have bought every single DOA and Ninja Gaiden game and love most of them. This includes the two DOAX games and NG 3, which are regarded with mixed reception at best. So the accusation that the games don't fit my personal taste because I added them is flat out false.
- It's well-documented that Ninja Gaiden off-putting to players, to the point that the creator of the game responded to complaints by adding Easy-Mode Mockery to the Updated Re-release. This trope is not about whether or not the things which alienate audiences are bad; it's about whether or not it alienated an audience.
- Just as well-known is the idea that fanservice keeps DOA from being "taken seriously" as a fighting game. This has been documented first by the infamous "She kicks high" commercial, which flat out makes fun of the fact that guys are afraid to admit they play the game. Second, the developers flat out addressed this problem in DOA 5 by reducing fanservice in the initially release of the game. Sure, the characters still looked sexy, but they showed a lot less skin and a lot less fetishwear. Even when this was added later, it was by DLC. So you flat out have to buy the fanservice outfits to see them. Third, even pro tournaments for the game have banned the sexy outfits for fear that viewers would not watch tournaments because they either don't like the costumes or are afraid to look like perverts.
Again, the trope is not about whether or not the things which alienate audiences are bad. It's about people feeling alienated, which even developers of the games admit.
As for Shawshank Redemption: the reason for removing that one is no less wrong. Whether or not the movie has things which made other movies more successful is irrelevant. The point is that it negatively affected sales for THIS movie.
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Firstly King Zeal I don't personally know you so I didn't know you were a fan. Secondly if you feel so strongly about this perhaps we should have a discussion about why we feel the way we do and see if we can come to a compromise. I just feel that the way the example was written makes it come off as natter and Complaining About Shows You Dont Like. I'm willing to re-add the examples if you're willing to allow some editing to shorten or clarify it.
That's why I was saying not to make assumptions about editors' motives in the original post. But yeah, if you want to compromise, that's fine. I see plenty about the entry that can use some improvement.
Alright I'll work on trimming it down a bit and pass it by you here before re-adding it. It may take a bit because I'm on mobile right now, but I should have it fairly soon.
- These days The Shawshank Redemption is considered one of the greatest films ever made, but its original box office reception was lukewarm due to this; it's based on one of Stephen King's least famous stories and it's a gritty, realistic prison drama from a creator who's more known for fantasy and horror stories. It didn't appeal to the horror fans that generally enjoyed King's works, but it's obscurity kept it from appealing to the overall mainstream.
- The flagship franchises of Team Ninja, Dead or Alive and Ninja Gaiden, get this sometimes. The former because of it's extremely heavy amounts of Fanservice (causing it to be mistaken for a softcore porn series by some and not be taken as seriously in the fighting game crowd as other franchises) and the latter for being so ludicrously difficult (to the point of scaring off casual audiences). Team Ninja seems aware of this to some degree and have made fun of it a few times.
Do you think this would be ok? I tried to just trim them down a bit and make the writing more general to prevent it from sounding like an Author Tract.
So this isn't part of the Bad Writing Index? How come?
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The Dream Soldier
I added something called The Americans to the Live-Action TV folder, but Mr. Media Guy, for some reason that doesn't make sense, erased it. I REALLY do think that it is appropriate to put on this page just from the premise alone, which of course, alienated me from ever watching it.
Edited by CabbitGirlEmi Hide / Show Replies
If it alienated you then that's a really flimsy reason to add it. This isn't Troper Tales.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
What? But that's what this trope is all about, isn't it? If it is, than deleting the obvious would be hypocritical. And I'm certain someone else might have similar thoughts to what alienates them.
Edited by CabbitGirlEmi
It's not about the premise alienating you, it's about the premise alienating the general public. Did the work alienate the general public? If not, then it doesn't count.
Also, I don't think it counts if the work was successful, because what you said was basically "I can't believe this work was successful, because I find the premise alienating!"
Well, I'm part of the general public... this was all a misunderstanding; I probably should have said nothing when I tried to post an example.
Can a premise/concept be considered audience-alienating if it's something we've seen a million times before, or does it have to be something weird, offbeat, nasty or scary?
For example, imagine that a new movie is about a knight fighting a dragon to rescue a princess. People don't want to see the movie because the basic concept sounds so overused, but when you do see the movie, it's actually a very unique and charming work that's mostly devoid of cliches. Does that movie belong to this trope?
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Really sorry about responding so late, but wouldn't that just be a Sleeper Hit?
Oh, it's so easy to condemn, so hard to create!
Why was Bobobobo Bobobobo removed? Is there seriously anyone out there who denies that this anime has one of the most insane premises ever created?
What if it's not the premise itself that's the problem, as the PERCEIVED premise? For instance, "Zombii U" was derided as "an action-stuffed generic zombie shooter without enough action, zombies or shooting" by a number of reviewers who don't seem to know about what Survival Horror games were before everyone was carrying around automatic rifles at all times.
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I think that counts, and is a factor in a number of examples. For instance, in the comics section, Power Pack had similar issues, and my understanding (I haven't read it) is that the "Avengers Arena" series itself doesn't really match the "death-filled Hunger Games clone" perception. I think advertising and marketing helped spread the misperceptions there, too.
Jet-a-Reeno!
Needs More Popcorn
I really think that the Kodomo no Jikan entry should be handled with a bit more care. Anime News Network didn't go on some tirade to get Nymphet pulled. They were squicked out about the story, sure, as some people would, but since when have bad reviews or previews been the sole decision to cancel a release?
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Complaining
, started by comicwriter on Feb 26th 2015 at 8:01:52 AM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman