Discussion Main / AgentPeacock

That seems really questionable. I think no.

Consensus would be good.

Looking at the trope description, it includes this line, ''They can be gay or straight, good or evil, played for laughs or played seriously, but they're all dominant personalities who tend to get their way". The trope description goes on to observe that on the rare occasions these character types are found in the military, they'll be in leadership positions.

Yumichika may be heavily peacock-themed and he may have some effeminate qualities (but not fully - he's every bit as Blood Knight as the rest of the 11th division and that's not effeminate) but he's simply not a dominant, leadership personality. He's so content to remain in Ikkaku and Kenpachi's shadows that he's actively hiding his true abilities to ensure it. He's not in a leadership rank, he's not even seeking a leadership rank and as long as he's sacrificing his true abilities to help Ikkaku achieve his, he's not even an example of someone who gets their own way.

Yumichika's a good example of an Almighty Janitor or a Submissive Badass, and he definitely fits The Dandy trope (except for his love of fighting). However, he doesn't fit the Agent Peacock trope description - being peacock-themed isn't what this trope is about, being an effeminate badass isn't what this trope is about. This trope is about dominant personalities who are nancy boy badasses - and Yumichika is not one of those.

Edited to add: The trope description lists examples of how someone could fit the trope: Yumichika doesn't fit any of them. He doesn't use effeminacy as a tactic - he's in the 11th division, the strongest combat division, and he's proud of that. He's a Blood Knight, just like everyone else and he doesn't even try to hide that, so there's no element of him using femininity as a tactic to surprise others either. He's never displayed any interest in sex with anything so there's no sexual tactics involved either, and women in the manga have never indicated they trust him more than any other man simply because he has some effeminate traits. He also never indicates any particular knowledge of "girly" things compared to other characters.

I would disagree about the leadership bit—while he is under Kenpachi and Ikkaku, he still is the fifth seat, which is definitely a leadership position. And I would argue that he gets his own way a lot, even if he doesn't go about it as overtly as Ikakku; he certainly seems to be able to play Ikkaku to get what he wants (at least in the anime filler, where the two get more development).

However, I can see your point about the dominant personality thing. While he's certainly no doormat, he's not really dominant.

But I'd like to get other opinions before making a final decision.

[EDIT: Fixed a typo.]

The anime filler treats Yumichika very differently to the manga canon, and I admit I usually focus more on the manga canon as a result when assessing a character - but even if we talking about him playing Ikkaku, he's not using femininity to do it, he's usually using submissive tactics and sometimes passive-aggressive, which still doesn't seem to fit this trope. The fandom (and the anime team sometimes) tends to obsess over Yumichika and femininity much more than the manga ever does.

The leadership positions are definitely captain and lieutenant - the storyline makes that clear, especially on one occasion with Yumichika starts arguing with a lieutenant and gets knocked out for his trouble... reason given, a fifth seat should never behave as though he's like a lieutenant. Ikkaku is often thrust into leadership responsibilities, but we see Yumichika backing up Ikkaku and supporting or carrying out the orders of either Ikkaku or Kenpachi - not giving orders in his own right, which means even when he seems to be in charge, he's only in charge of carrying out his divisional superior's orders.

I'm not dismissing the point that he's a highly seated officer so logic suggests that he would obviously be in charge of men, but that would be the case in militaries anyway - and such individuals aren't military leaders... they'd be unit leaders at best, subordinate to the genuine leadership ranks and working to ensure the men carry out the true leader's orders.

The shinigami that fits Agent Peacock is Kyouraku - he's in a leadership position (captain) and according to the Character Book of Souls, he's also acknowledged as Soul Society's biggest dandy - so Yumichika isn't even Soul Society's biggest dandy, despite his peacock affiliations.

I agree that it would be useful to have a larger input than the two of us, however. Two of us discussing it won't get us very far. :)

When I said I see your point about the dominant personality, I really meant that I see your point about Yumichika not fitting on this page. However, I still would like to have more than a consensus of two.

And if the final decision about Yumichika is that he doesn't belong, I think we should note him on the page as an aversion to prevent further back-and-forth editing over him.

Agreed on the aversion reference. I haven't touched the page regarding his presence on the trope, but it looks like we're either the only two people interested or the only two people who know there's a discussion.

I noticed on another page that when a discussion cropped up, the example was removed from the main page and replaced with a double-percentage comment in the relevant section of the relevant folder advertising the fact the example was under discussion in the Discussion Page and needed input. That way, it shows up to anyone who goes to insert that particular example in as an alert that there's actually a discussion taking place. As it stands, there's no real indication any discussion is occurring. Say, insert something like this in the Bleach part of the main page (periods temporarily inserted between the percentage signs to make the comment show up for the purpose of this post only):

"%...% Yumichika as an example or an aversion of the Agent Peacock trope is being discussed on the Discussion Page. Input is required to reach a consensus."

Is that something you'd be willing to do?

Sure. Doing it now.

Despite the commented out note, someone just added him on again. Here is what they put:

• Yumichika also counts. Guy picked a lower rank just because the higher one wasn't as pretty.

He seems like a pretty clear example to me. I'm clearing out commented notes at the moment and this seems as good a time as any to get rid of that. He fulfills every part of the trope except being popular with girls and we don't know that he isn't. We do know that he wouldn't care though.

I take it you don't consider being a leader to be an integral part of the trope, then?

He doesn't seem to fit any part of the trope to me, except for being pretty and vain. ("Camp" might be a Values Dissonance issue, so that's another debate entirely.)

This trope seems to me to be as much a personality-based trope as the Eye Colour tropes are. Being blue-eyed doesn't mean a character fits any of the blue-eyed tropes because they need a specific personality type that goes with the eye colour. This trope seems to be the same and, as a submissive badass, Yumichika's personality is the opposite of what this trope describes.

He's an officer. He isn't the head honcho, but he's not just some grunt either. Also, where does it say in the description that they have to be a leader? It says vain, pretty/camp, effective in combat, and FABULOUS. And considering his vanity and self importance I'd say he is a dominant personality. Just not around Ikkaku.

The first paragraph explains that all Agent Peacocks have dominant personalities that get their own way. The second paragraph says that it's rare to find them in the military but when they are they tend to be military leaders.

The trope indicates two important things: they're girly and badass, and they're dominant personality types that tend to get their own way. Yumichika doesn't tend to get his own way (it's not just Ikkaku he's submissive to, it's Kenpachi and the entire 11th division philosophy; Kira is also a good example of how Yumichika doesn't tend to get his own way, for not behaving like a fifth seat among lieutenants, Kira tranquillised him).

On the issue of girly-ness, while I'm aware a couple of anime filler episodes have made him girly (I remember one filler practically turned Yumichika into Ikkaku's wife), that's not the case in the manga. A volume 55 omake has him describe himself as the "supreme king of fashion". Fashion-obsessed isn't automatically girly, although Values Dissonance can creep in on this point: high fashion in Japan (especially Tokyo) can look quite feminised compared to western fashion (and western fashion can make men look more feminised as well). For example, some perfumes that are marketed for women in the west are marketed for men in Japan. In terms of girly-ness, I tend to view Charlotte Cuulhorne as closer to this trope than Yumichika.

I'm not sure what you're looking for on this point, however. Could you tell me how you see Yumichika meeting the girly-ness the trope is looking for? (Bear in mind I am not disagreeing that he's an officer, vain, pretty, effective in combat or fabulous.) That might give me a better idea of how you see the trope.

I tend to view his vanity and care for his appearance as being quite feminine. For example, during the fight with Ganju he's constantly preening and priding himself on his looks. The amount of care he puts into looking so fabulous seems like the trope to me. I do not think it's a male trait to take care of your appearance in such a manner and to that extent.

I think that might be where Values Dissonance comes in although it's not uncommon in western cultures, especially certain European countries where men are expected to care about their appearance. It's fairly mainstream for Japan, though, where beauty and fashion ideals are feminising by default (but not girly).

Yumichika's not the only male character that fusses about his appearance (Byakuya, Rose, Uryuu, etc.). Soul Society's biggest dandy isn't even Yumichika, it's Kyouraku. He's just the example the fandom thinks of first, probably because he's the easiest to spot (he's more overt about it than the others, although Uryuu has his moments). Yumichika's fuss about his appearance is supposed to be fashion-conscious, not girly. If I was to choose an example of a male being girly about appearance, I'd choose Charlotte Cuulhorne.

But Kyouraku, Byakuya etc aren't nearly as vain or focused on their appearance. Kyouraku and Byakuya also act fairly masculine. Yumichika is clearly vain and has more effeminate behavior. Didn't we just see him looking even girlier in his post timeskip appearance?

The omake for the first final arc volume states that Yumichika's appearance change is an issue of fashion. Japanese fashion tends towards 'feminising' males who want to be trendy. Kubo described Shinji's feminine appearance as evidence that Shinji is very fashionable. Uryuu's fashion sense feminising peoples clothing whether male or female is another example. This isn't about girlyness it's about fashion trends.

Byakuya, Kyouraku, etc. are very focused on their appearances. Yumichika's more noticeable because he's more verbal 9and therefore more obvious) about it. He's far from the only one, however. The biggest dandy in Soul Society is actually Kyouraku. In the manga, Yumichika's overall behaviour is not particularly effeminate at all when compared to the characters around him. It's only in the anime where some filler material has noticeably girlified him, making him stand out from his canon presentation, that the line from fashionable to girly has been crossed. A big part of the trope description is about how girlyness is used to make the character more badass (and the anime's occasional girlification of Yumichika isn't for this reason, it's for Ikkaku/Yumichika ship tease). Kubo's only ever done that once in the manga, and Charlotte was the character he used for that.

Image discussions should be raised in Image Pickin'.