Why was the page image changed from the old "Congratulations Vl'Hurg and Steve" Zero Punctuation image? The new image is much less funny in my opinion. It's the guy from Penny Arcade just saying two names. In the old image the name was a punchline, because it was at an alien wedding. The new image has absolutely nothing funny about it at all. The caption doesn't help much either, it's just the same "joke" as the one in the image, which wasn't that funny the first time.
Has anybody actually read the thing we got the page quote from? It's the most absurd, spiteful, irrelevant, and narrow-minded list of 'rules' for writing I've ever read; and not in a remotely comedic way. To paraphrase only slightly: 'If you have a character named Elizabeth, throw your entire novel away and feel grave shame.'
Couldn't we use literally any other quote? The first entry on the quotes page is pretty good for illustrating this trope's effective purpose in providing a page for everybody to list funny juxtaposing names; and the fifth is pretty good at conveying the instant questioning the trope can actually provoke.
The Simpson section is all incredibly weak. Three are a collection of names ranging from normal to somewhat uncommon but still unremarkable and one of the latter singled out. Another is two common names and a generic nickname. I move that none of them count and propose deleting the section.
Edited by AgentTasmania Hide / Show Replies
Remove these examples. They are not really fitting at all.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The real life section is a bit of a mess (as it tends to be). Using entire countries as examples? Wouldn't you expect a wide variation of names in groups of millions of people?
Hide / Show Replies
Uh, yeah. Might want to offer that up in the forum discussion
.
"A Song of Ice and Fire features a lot of them. You get some real modern names (Robert, Jon, Arya, Catelyn, Brandon)" Those are only "modern" in the sense that they are still in use. They are all actually medieval (except for Arya, which is really ancient (Proto-Indo-European)).
From 16 August 2013 until 15 September 2013, the page had two copies of the example from Wizards of Mickey. As of 15 September, the first copy read,
- In the Disney comic saga Wizards of Mickey, classic Disney characters Mickey, Donald Duck, Goofy, and Pete keep their mundane names, while original characters have "fantasy-style" names like Nereus and Fafnir.
The second copy read,
- In the Disney comic saga Wizards of Mickey, classic Disney characters Mickey, Donald Duck, Goofy, and Pete keep their mundane names, while original characters have es (Randall Boggs, Henry J. Waternoose), and some have odd first names (Fungus, Bile/Phlegm).
- They take human names as titles or symbols, and name themselves to their liking. Guess a Polish surname sounds exotic.
I have deleted the second copy and kept the first copy. I am not sure whether the second copy contains any information that we should have kept.
"Dinosaur had Aladar, Neera, Plio, Suri, Yar, Zini, Kron, Bruton, Eema, Url, and Baylene."
Which of those is supposed to be a "normal" name? I've never seen or heard any of them before. Granted, I'm not from America, but I've seen plenty of US TV shows and films.
Hide / Show Replies
I am from USA, but I see no Bob in that list of Aeriths. The current version of the page has Baylene in italics, but I recall no Americans named Baylene.
I don't understand why Fullmetal Alchemist is listed as an example. The trope description states that "this doesn't count [...] in a cosmopolitan setting where characters might be reasonably expected to have diverse cultural backgrounds without this necessarily being explicitly stated". That is obviously the case for FMA, which makes it not valid as example.
Edited by 216.99.32.42
The whole trope falls under fridge logic. Not the examples of the trope but trope itself. Why is Aerith stranger name than George? Why should characters actually notice that strangest? it is really not stranger than Edwin or Mike, inverse. The trope creation comes from very narrow American point of view which assumes that all currently used names are okay when everything which does not fall in that category is strange. It is completely illogical.
The only appropriate examples would be a name for a Gaul from Asterix comics which does not end with "ix" or if every girl is named after a flower except one and nobody notices it.
Aerith and bob is not a proper example
Hide / Show Replies
Speaking as a non-American, I disagree. Largely because I'm not seeing "currently used" anywhere in the trope description.
If a fantasy culture was pseudo-Gaelic, and one guy was called John Smith for no reason, that would seem just as odd as if a pseudo-English culture had one guy called Aonghas mac Og without explanation. However, the reader can assume the character's ancestors came from another country, which is the Fantasy Counterpart Culture to the country the name actually comes from, even if the writer doesn't spell this out.
But if one guy is called Zibbbobex Ytranta, that stands out in either society, and to a much greater extent since it's not a name the reader can apply to a real world culture. On the other hand, if there's lots of people who have names made from random collections of syllables, it's the ones with "real" names that stand out.
I'm not saying all the examples actually follow this logic, but the trope itself seems pretty solid to me.
(And if every girl was named after a flower but one, and no-one noticed, I'd assume it was a coincidence. On the other hand, if every girl was named after a flower in Latin but one, and she was called Judy, or even Rose, I'd find that a bit odd.)
Edited by DaibhidC
I think the Trope needs a lot of repairing as it should be "No common Language/Origin for individual cultures" where people seem to take it as "Names that exist in our culture intermixing with names that do not".
The biggest example of this would be Arthurian Mythos:
There is definitely cases of Aerith and Bob but it's very different from how it is written here; Certain names caught on and others didn't in our culture but most of the ones listed right now are in fact all Welsh and common enough for the time.
On the other hand, this most certainly is the case with later French editions to the Mythos like Galahad and Lancelot who seem wierd next to more Celtic names, particularly the ones which are less Anglicized like "Culhwch".
Mé féin ag daṁsa faoin ngealaċ seanrince gan ċeol leis ach ceol cuisle. DS FC: 4141-3472-4041, feel free to add me.
For Tamora Pierce's names, Lalasa, Joren, Cleon, and Baird are all real names. She started making up names in Lioness Rampant, starting with Thayet and Buriram. She has begun bringing back normal names now. She had Owen, Conal, all the others I mentioned and more in Protector of the Small and Rebakah (hebrew spelling of Rebecca, Tansy, Matthias and more in Provost's Dog.
Bardic Feline
I cannot be the only one to think that the Rocko's modern life one isn't a real example...at least not for all of those names. Rocko is stated in canon to actually be from Australia, for instance, where that name wouldn't be so unusual. And Spunky is a pet dog...if we can legitimately use this trope for pet animal names, then the list of examples would be ENDLESS. I'm just saying...
Also, it seems like a lot of these examples ignore the whole "cosmopolitan setting rule". (I.E., instances where it would actually make SENSE for this sort of thing to happen.)
For that reason, I also question the Real Life examples. I mean, the original trope is based around the Bad Writing mistake of having people have exotic names or overly modern names in settings where it wouldn't make sense for them to have them, right?
But that would require EFFORT... Hide / Show Replies
"Also, it seems like a lot of these examples ignore the whole "cosmopolitan setting rule". (I.E., instances where it would actually make SENSE for this sort of thing to happen.) "
To that end, I don't think the trope name itself is appropriate, considering Final Fantasy VII takes place over the entire world, so, why would it be weird to have a mix of names?
The trope name is a reference to the Alice and Bob trope *, and doesn't depend on whether or not FFVII itself is an example: It's an odd name next to a regular name, which is the heart of the trope.
I have a different problem with some of these examples: just because a name isn't familiar to a particular troper, doesn't mean that it's unusual or exotic. "Boggs" is mentioned as an example under Monsters Inc., and that's a fairly common surname. Small reference pools, and all that.
\
Am I the only one who thinks that a lot of people's reactions to this is overblown somewhat? I get that it can be weird is certain settings, especially with two names like Sam and Tullopinna is rather distracting. However, I see people reacting over names in more realistic settings and Real Life that aren't that weird. Just because they're not as common as Sarah, Rachel, Tim, and Bill names like Laurel, Glenda, Fran, Lana, and Byron are not some super weird abominations upon the spoken word. I dunno, Ive just seen names that that get reactions from people like "Wow, what a weird and strange name you have. Who would ever ever think to use that name?" when they don't seem that over-the-top to me. :P
Edited by Jumpingzombie
On the Dragon Age example:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't Loghain, Anora, Alistair, Morrigan, Isolde, Fergus, Levi, and Bryce all Celtic or Gaelic names? And Leliana, Zevran and Oghren are foreigners and a dwarf, respectively. Seems fairly consistent to me... any objections to it being removed?
Edited by Atz
I'll probably use the crap out of this trope!