Discussion Literature / TheCatcherInTheRye

He certainly has other 'Byronic' traits:

• ''One mark against him personality wise, however, is a struggle with his own personal integrity.
• Is very intelligent, perceptive, sophisticated, educated, cunning and adaptable, but also self-centered.
• Is emotionally sensitive, which may translate into being emotionally conflicted, bipolar, or moody.
• He is extremely passionate, with strong personal beliefs which are usually in conflict with the values of the status quo. He sees his own values and passions as above or better than those of others, manifesting as arrogance or a martyr-like attitude.'' &c.

No need to pass all criteria - that condition could disqualify lot of other Byronic heroes. (In my opinion he's something of a Reconstruction - "a Byronic hero for the fifties". Perhaps even with a hint of Deconstruction, totally missed by fandom.)

One of the hallmarks, though, is being a Determinator and I don't see that in Holden. I don't see the conflict in Holden either.

Could not find this as a defining trait of a Byronic Hero. The closest I came to was: "His intense drive and determination to live out his philosophy without regard to others' philosophies produces conflict, and may result in a tragic end, should he fail, or revolution, should he succeed. Because of this, he is very rebellious, having a distaste for social institutions and norms and is disrespectful of rank and privilege, though he often has said rank and privilege himself. This rebellion often leads to social isolation, rejection, or exile, or to being treated as an outlaw, but he will not compromise, being unavoidably self-destructive." Not exactly the same thing as the Determinator, IMO. As regards to the conflict - are we talking about the same character? Holden's really both messed up internally and intensely resentful/condescending towards - well almost every adult (with very few exceptions - Mr. Spencer and Mr. Antolini) he meets during the book; and towards most of his fellow teenagers too - i.e. almost all the society. Yet he somewhat attempts to get at least some recognition of all the phonies he met, even though he "does not really care". Or so he says.

Yes we are talking about the same character, I meant the internal conflict. As far as the Determinator aspect, as someone who must take the long, hard road to do what must be done, I don't see that part of him.

Yep, a teenager who flunked the school and ran away, attempts to get attention of his teachers and parents (altough he quite dislikes the latter and most of the former) and is Desperately Looking for a Purpose in Life, wandering through New York, must be obviously a well-balanced person. °-)

"As far as the Determinator aspect, as someone who must take the long, hard road to do what must be done, I don't see that part of him."

• He is extremely passionate, with strong personal beliefs which are usually in conflict with the values of the status quo. He sees his own values and passions as above or better than those of others, manifesting as arrogance or a martyr-like attitude. Sometimes, however, he just sees himself as one who must take the long, hard road to do what must be done.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is what is the said road and I don't see the road or the destination he is set upon. I just took that as a Determinator. Holden, from what I read, is content to complain about the world than do something about it. I've always interpreted that aspect of a Byronic Hero (partially) as someone who does something about the situation he's in. It also implies that he or she hits parts of the major criteria listed and I don't see the part about the self-critical and introspective part. Holden is quick to blame things on others rather than take responsibility.

Also, as I mentioned before, that the intense drive and determination to live out his philosophy without regard to others philosophies produces conflict, and may result in a tragic end, should he fail, or revolution, should he succeed. I guess I don't see that drive with his dislike for phonies, yet lies about who he is.

(@ Nov 23) Perhaps, but these (Determinator etc.) are still conditions for a Byronic hero you just made up or quotemined. You are imagining byronic heroes perhaps too literally - a lot of them (though not most of the original heroes by Lord Byron) are just rather obnoxiously whining, instead of acting out their rebellion in the external world.

Holden is quick to blame things on others rather than take responsibility.

Any contradiction with a byronic hero here?

(@ Nov 24) Basically I always assumed that all his wandering was the expression of his inability to resolve conflict between his opinions on society and his inability to take some appropriate action. And his end is certainly not a full throttle tragedy, but hardly a happy ending. Not byronic enough for you?

The contradiction was that a Byronic Hero is self-critical and introspective. As I detailed above repeatedly, Holden is neither.

As I detailed above repreatedly, that's one personal trait of a byronic hero you chose to stress. Arguably Holden is not the typical 19th century byronic hero, but still fulfills most of the characrerizations, critical being "actions and beliefs in contrast to the society".

I've seen lately in the article history you got tired by this discussion and resorted to one-sided deletion? How easy.

The reason why I stressed it is because it's a pretty big personal trait, enough that it has its own bullet point. You got it backwards, I deleted it first (with a note to justify to me how Holden is a Byronic Hero), put it into Headscratchers, and then brought it into discussion as a challenge of sorts of how Holden qualifies as a Byronic Hero. That's how I started this entire discussion.

One of them. Which "might be helpful in identification".

My apology, I haven't noticed chronological order of your actions. 'Sentence first - verdict afterwards' then?

I'd suggest restoring Byronic Hero, as it fits Holden's personality quite well (unless someone insist on a perfect fit for every single point) - and Tropes Are Flexible. Unless you have an objection other than continuing insistence on complete set of parametres as you see them, I'd return it, OK?

He does not wish to keep them celibate indefinitely, just to protect them from dirty words when they're still children, AFAIK. (Most people tend to have sex only when they're grown-up, not as children, anyway. It wouldn't made sense from the reproductive point of view.)

Of course, that depends on when people are considered children, people are screwing in their teenage years more often than in Holden's time. As far as protecting them from dirty words, good luck with that.

You're welcome, but my point basically was to explain what Holden was actually attempting.

I was referring to Holden in his regards to keep children from dirty words with the "good luck with that."

Thank you for clarification.