Discussion GameBreaker / GenshinImpact

Arlecchino is generally agreed by T Cers to be at least as strong as if not stronger than HT.

That said, I think Arle isn't especially strong. She's stronger than many entries on this list but that speaks more to the fact that most here need to be trimmed. Ayaka, Ganyu, Hu Tao, Raiden Shogun, Navia, Zhongli and Alhaitham all strike me as characters that are a tier below in terms of competitiveness for Abyss compared to the rest.

Based on some current usage stats (see gamefaqs discussion here [1] ) I think the only characters I'd consider cutting are Ganyu and maybe Ayaka. Otherwise our list is matching pretty well with the most commonly used characters.

As for Arlecchino, I guess let's just let her be for now. We can always cut her later.

Actually I want to hold off on cutting anybody right now since the leaks suggest there is a new permanent endgame mode coming that limits the elements you can use. That would mean that while Ganyu and Ayaka are lagging behind the top tier overall, they're still the best of their own element.

While I would have liked a discussion, I'm willing to keep her for now. I wouldn't say her abyss usage in 4.4 part 1 was that terrible [1]. 18.7% is better than some other characters on this list, and noteworthy given that the last abyss was not a favorable match-up for her. My opinion on her is that she's if Eula was braindead easy to play, and while her damage ceiling is capped by geo's limitations it is super easy to hit that ceiling. I'd say watch for now, if her abyss usage continues to tumble then we'll take her off. But any other thoughts? Sometimes I feel like I'm acting as king of this list which is NOT what I want.

I'm pretty sure the game breaker page only covers combat-relevant things (especially concerning the Spiral Abyss), not things that help you in the overworld.

The overworld is too easy so these aren't gamebreakers because there is no difficulty to break. These exploits don't remove challenge, they're just convenient.

You're talking about MH Tao, right? I would still wait for more concrete calcs to come out but I have heard that most DP Ss get around a 10~15% boost with MH and furina so I'm excited to seem them.

Having pulled and tried her out in gameplay, and I gotta say, she's like really really good, and agree that the fact that she can easily manipulate the whole party's HP allows MH become a viable artifact set for normal and charged attack DPSes who do not have reliable HP drain.

However, I don't know if this is the right place to bring it up, but Furina's entry in the Memetic Loser page is seemingly used to point out the flaws in Furina's kit, like having inconsistent Hydro application with her summons, her healing having no damage or Hydro application, needing to drain HP from the party to strengthen her summons, or having weak normal attack scalings despite her crit focused ascension stat and signature weapon.

I don't know about you guys, but I feel that what is written there seemingly failed to consider some things, like a pre-C6 Furina is meant as an off-field DPS, making her low NA scalings obsolete^note Ironically, this is just like Yelan, another off-field Hydro DPS with a crit rate ascension/crit rate sig weapon and low scalings on her NAs, and how her HP draining and healing synergizes with other MH holders, as mentioned earlier.

I'd like to see what other people think, because I myself think Furina is really good and has potential to be added to the Game Breakers.

Altair 97 is clearly doing an edit war and should be reported. Furthermore their Memetic Loser analysis appears to be based on their own opinion and runs contrary to public consensus by multiple Genshin sites. Furina's loser meme is purely based on her appearance in the storyline, not her gameplay.

The only concession I will make is that playing Furina casually versus in the abyss are incredibly different. The summons are too aggressive for the overworld, to the point that you're losing HP because they picked a fight with a campfire. Overworld foes generally don't have enough HP to need her damage buff either, so she's better played as a Kokomi side-grade by keeping her in healing mode for a 100% uptime no fuss healer.

In the abyss (or bosses or local legends) she's a goddess, as 75% flat full party damage buff is oh so broken.

Was gonna say. Dude is very busted, almost like a Catalyst Yelan, with him being a Hydro DPS who puts heavy emphasis on HP scaling for his attacks, with his charged attack in particular being really busted and hard hitting, and relatively easy to spam with his skill/burst and no stamina consumption. And the aforementioned self sustain means he doesn't need healers to watch over him as much.

That said, we probably should wait on consensus from the others on what they think before adding him.

He's a pretty strong candidate, and if the leaks about Furina are true he's only going to get better next update. His only flaw as it stands right now is that he demands interruption resistance, necessitating either a team slot for a shield, a freeze team, or his first constellation. But pure HP scaling with crit damage ascension and the hunter set for the crit rate really make him busted. He's not even a field hog like most hypercarries, only staying on field for as long as he's got droplets for a charge attack.

Some nitpicks are he also wants a hydro teammate for resonance buff, but none really help him much beyond the resonance (at least until Furina appears). He's also a bit harder to run in reaction teams instead of mono-hydro, as he wants to keep his distance but most set-up partners either put him in melee range, don't trigger on charge attacks, or he's struggling for teamslots given his shield necessity at C0. Electro-charge is his best reaction for now and that's kinda sad. His signature weapon also holds a significant amount of his power (roughly a 30% boost over F 2 P options). None of that changes my opinion of his brokeness however.

On a side note we should revisit adding Alhaitham as it's been brought up a few times but never gotten off the ground. Despite that, the guy is still as strong as ever. And maybe Childe? For an old character the guy's staying power is impressive.

(+) neuvillette

(=) alhaitham

(-) chide

neuvillette clearly the best onfield Hydro right now

alhaitham is good, but it's still hard for me to get over the fact that he's a downgrade to double hydro in hyperbloom.

childe was considered very strong in the context of early Genshin. He was the only substitution for your Xingqiu in Xiangling vape, and the more alternatives to Xingqiu that there are the less special he is. Arguably Ayato is as strong and more flexible.

I'd remove Kokomi too. She's already on Rescued from the Scrappy Heap and she's strong in two very specific niches (Nilou teams and Freeze). That's about it. She's nowhere near Xingqiu or Yelan tiers of versatile and broken.

Yeah, the biggest things holding me back from adding him were that he's coasting on the fact that Nahida and Spread/Hyperbloom are utterly broken teams rather than propping those up himself.

But you have a point that Tighnari is also good in Spread and Al outdamages Tigh by a wide margin. And if we are weighing spread and aggrevate evenly, I could see an argument that Al is better than all electro characters too at being the DPS driver (Keqing, Cyno, Raiden, Yae, etc) to the point that if given the choice between an Aggrevate team or a Spread team with Alhaitham you should choose Al.

So for that reason I say we can add him now.

I wouldn't really consider her to be that G Bing. She is strong in her niche but there are lots of characters like that and the page would get too bloated if every single character with a decent team is put on here. We all know she is good for providing persistent AOE electro application which lets her trigger seeds easily in Hyperbloom, but outside of that you really don't want to be running Kuki if you don't have to. For example, for an Aggravate team, Fischl is the uncontested best slot for your second Electro so Kuki really doesn't have a place after that as then you need a Electro Driver, Dendro Applicator and Resistance Shred.

If your point is that some of the other entries on this list don't really fit; are just as niche as Kuki or not even as strong as her... well I'd agree, but deleting entries from here would be a huge can of worms to hold off on.

I'd say Yaoyao's success is mostly due to piggybacking on how powerful Dendro teams are, and the fact that Yaoyao can be swapped out for several other similar healers is telling (especially now that Baizhu gives another Dendro option).

So she's good but not a gamebreaker in my eyes.

This article is basically half-usage rate and half-raw DPS calculations from theorycrafters, so if Al-Haitham rises in popularity I think most people here would be ok with adding him. As I understand it, the power of his team comps roughly matches that of the stronger existing teams out there.

I did re-writes for all the 5-stars (see link above). I'll keep them there for a week to see if I get any comments before moving them here. After that I'll move on to 4-stars.

I agree we need a clean up but disagree with your direction. I think we need to make it clear that this is based on Spiral Abyss performance only because it's the only metric worth measuring. The overworld and general content are too easy to need a gamebreaker list, we should just axe the section completely if we justify that.

As such the characters section seems fine to me at this time, as based on usage stats they are top tier for one reason or another. We need to halt new entries until they prove themselves with data and cut characters that fall below a certain usage limit going forward though.

The reaction section could be cut, as it's the core gameplay mechanic and at this point almost every reaction has a viable team set-up. It's more noteworthy to talk about the failed reactions (superconduct, burning) than the "gamebreakers."

Weapons could also be condensed to only those that are giving way more than their price tag (so free ones like The Catch or easily obtainable ones like Favonius and Thrilling Tales). Homa is borderline as it's great on about every polearm character but I don't think it's price justifies it.

Artifacts could also go, as set bonuses are great but substats matter so much more and most characters have several viable sets to use instead of just one. The only one maybe worth keeping is Emblem of Severed Fate as it is elevated characters that were otherwise hard to use, while other sets just improve on what a character already has.

And absolutely no honorable mentions, that will just encourage abuse. You'll soon find the entire roster crammed in their, mark my words!

If you don't agree with cutting essentially everyone but Bennett and Xingqiu, I'd suggest then dropping Ganyu, Hu Tao, and Ayaka just to cut down on the size of the 5-star list. None of these three are particularly game-breaking, they are simply good, solid picks. Additionally, I feel that their 5-star status holds them to a higher standard that I think they simply don't meet. Especially Hu Tao, since she's arguably not even better than Xiangling, who is a 4-star character. And we don't want to suggest to people that pulling for five stars is necessary or even neccessarily good for your account strength-wise.

I think Yelan and Raiden are... right on the edge. Yelan is absolutely good, but she is by most metrics, worse than a C6 Xingqiu. I don't know if being equal to or worse than a 4-star qualifies her as being game-breaking. On the other hand, Xingqiu is probably the second-best character in the game barring high constellation 5-stars, so she can get grandfathered in for being essentially a second C6 Xingqiu you can slot in.

Raiden is like the new Ganyu in that she is an incredible enabler of a whole metric ton of teams like the entire family of Hyper Raiden squads or Raiden National or dual carry Eula teams and much of her strength is in her flexibility and her high base values, but her strength might not have the longevity of someone like Bennett or Kazuha. it's hard to describe why exactly she's so much better than the likes of Itto or Eula and it's even harder to tell if she'll stay that way as Genshin evolves.

In the meantime, I think I can maybe workshop the Yelan paragraph, consulting with KQM if that's alright. I think we can definitely flesh her Game Breaking explanation out more without reciting her kit.

Ayaka and Hu Tao currently have usage stats above 66%, so I disagree with cutting them. Ganyu however I could see a case that the meta has surpassed her damage ceiling (31.5% usage in 3.0).

I could also see a case for cutting Venti, as he's not as useful against bosses and large enemies and his burst is hard to position (unlike Kazuha). He's also slipped to a 33.4% usage rate. While usage rates aren't everything (Yoimiya sprung to 44.3% but I wouldn't suggest adding her yet) they aren't worth ignoring either.

But I don't think we should be cutting just to make it smaller but for legitimate reasons these characters aren't quite so gamebreaking. I also don't think we should cut to save troper's wallets or something. I'd rather just change the page header to make it clear this is for the spiral abyss only and that general content is fine with whatever team of favorites you wish to use.

Data came from here BTW: [1]

Since this going to be a big project I made an Ask The Tropers request to get more eyes on it. Don't think it's fair if just you or I start pruning without getting some more opinions.

I kind of disagree on the point of usage rates. I think they can be almost entirely ignored when discussing how strong a character is in Abyss, because Usage rates are somewhat closer to a popularity poll than anything else. I can't speak to the methodology of that exact image, but *most* usage rate charts I see are usually based on a simple formula that's deceptively tricky:

[number of people who used the character in Abyss] / [number of people who own the character]

An illustrative example of why usage rates is a very flawed way to measure meta strength is Fischl there— Fischl is undoubtedly one of the strongest characters in the game right now, especially with the release of Aggravate which is almost designed for her and her quick Electro application. Yet, her usage rate remains well below Yae in that picture, despite her being equal if not better than Yae in most metrics. Why is this? Well, the most obvious reason is that nearly everyone owns Fischl from either random pulls or the free Fischls from either the Summertime Odyssey or the Unreconciled Stars events, whereas one had to pull for yae miko in her limited banner, so not everyone owns her and the people who do own her probably want to use her in Abyss for reasons other than meta strength.

There are like a billion other reasons why measuring usage rates is flawed (for example, that above image is from Chinese data and in CN theorycrafting assume CXRX on constellations and signature weapon because people spend more money on weapon and character banners there while the US tends to assumes C0 + best 4* option because over here the spending pattern is mostly to get C0 and maybe C1 or R1 at most) but the gist of it is that I feel that Game Breakers should be reasoned out from the character's kits, their numbers and how they perform in established meta teams, and not from usage rates charts which come with all the above noise

Also, sure thing on the Ask Tropers request. Always a good idea to get more opinions.

It would be if I could get any replies lol. So far nothing.

I agree that usage rates can't be the only criteria, but if a character is getting consistently high usage rates then they deserve examination.

Ok, so from what I can gather, there are a few basic guidelines:

Delete pretty much everything but the character and weapons sections. Limit the weapon section to 4* weapons only. Do not delete any character entries, but look into trimming them down substantially.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FkAm5QbUSw4lhTMxEDJTrizlTmunDT0vHRPsOspPCTU/edit# We have a shared google doc here with a lot of good discussion so far

I've added my own insight in the ATT page. As for cutting everything, I agree with that except for Eo SF and VV Artifacts.

As for the no 5-star weapons rule because it's a lot harder to get than a 5-star character, would Serpent Spine be cut because it's locked behind a paywall and not (easier) pullable like other 4-star weapons like Sacrificial and Favonius?

Go ahead and leave your thoughts on the shared google doc so that everything can be versioned. But I think Serpent Spine *is* a lot better than most of its competition and currently deserves a spot. However, if there ever comes out a F 2 P option that is competitive with Serpent Spine it might lose its value, so that kind of entry might not have all that much longevity.

1) Raiden doesn't really benefit as much from Catalyze reactions as you would think, so if Dendro reactions being added to the game is your redline, I would reconsider. Quicken functions as an additive to every Aggravate or Spread reaction applied to a unit inflicted with Quicken while the aura lasts with absolutely no gauge consumption applied to the aura, which means Quicken benefits fast Electro applicators above all like Keqing or Fischl. Raiden doesn't apply electro all that quickly, she just has nuts base values. What's worse is that Raiden's attenuation tag for her charged attack, while she is in her burst, doesn't share the 0 ICD tag with the rest of the polearm characters but has its own attenuation tag that gives it the default ICD:

https://genshin-impact.fandom.com/wiki/Internal_Cooldown/Data

This is without even going into the question of who you would replace in Raiden Hypercarry teams to slot in DMC. The first idea would be to remove Bennett as Bennett would make it difficult to maintain or apply Quicken in the first place due to the Pyro removing the Dendro aura from the Quicken effect, but losing Bennett is 10000% worse for Raiden's DPS than she would gain from the Quicken damage boost, and not only that but removing Bennett also removes your only healer for a sara-kazuha variation of Raiden Hypercarry, and you can't easily put in Xingqiu for the same quicken reasons that you can't put in Bennett. And it is supremely pointless to swap out Kazuha in a Raiden Hypercarry comp to put in Jean if you're not going to play sunfire. All in all you're likely halving your DPS if you want to play Raiden with Quicken and with no Burdgeon or Bloom to troll your Quicken aura, and a healer (in comparison to a more traditional Raiden Hypercarry team like +sara +kazuha +bennett or Sunfire).

HOWEVER— Raiden, at least in my personal view, has more of a meta relevance than Zhongli, so for the sake of a coherent view as to what constitute a Game Breaker in Genshin I think she should be on here. Honestly, Venti might have slid down to around her value level, so if Zhongli and Venti are on this list, I think Raiden deserves a spot.

2) Fav weapons might be some of the strongest weapons in the game, but they're highly dependent on optimization. I would consult with KQM to give a digestible paragraph as to why they're so good, but most of it amounts to being able to drop energy requirements when you otherwise wouldn't.

3) On another note, I think Fischl needs to be updated on list with the release of Catalyze. She got considerably stronger (and she was already strong) as she is one of the fastest Electro applicators in the game and she scales very well with Aggravate procs.

I think you're right since they're support weapons, should remove any suggestion they can be used on damage dealers because while usable in presented situations of high energy cost, still not the best. So the entry is dedicated to their strengths on supports specifically.

Originally, Sacrificial I truly agree it's an amazing weapon because resetting the Skill's cooldown to use it twice in a row makes big differences in energy gen, buff, debuff, etc. I think that ability was recognized as op by the devs which is why spear doesn't exist due to a lot of the best characters use polearms and need their skills as part of their kit.

Although Favonius I am a bit mixed on it. As a support weapon, I think it's really good and I really only added it in since it can share a similar energy gen role with Sacrificial, but Sac weapons I know it can also be used to keep spamming other powerful skills like Diona's or Sucrose's so it's more than just a battery.

I'm all for Sacrificial staying on the list, Favonius might be too "okay" since it's really only lumped in there for the energy benefits.

I don't know why there isn't a sac-lance. Some theorize it's a lore reason as they're ceremonial objects of the Lawrence Clan (Eula's family) and in Mondstadt spears are seen as pheasant weapons. Others theorize it's because Xiangling was the only spear character at launch and they didn't want double Guoba.

Later today I'll edit the entry to be Sacrificial only unless there's any objections.

Fav weapons are considered by the KQM theorycrafters to be one of the best weapon lines in the game. However, their usefulness is only really well-understood to 1% of the playerbase so it's not a great example of game-breaking for the general audience of TV Tropes. You need to heavily minmax your characters while lugging around an artifact library in the hundreds to get to the point where fav weapons really shine.

I say no.

In practice the healing is really minor and not enough to go without a dedicated healer unless it's highly refined. It's good for healing passive damage like corrosion or environment damage.

But the bigger issue is that most Genshin endgame content centers DPS and clearing things as fast as you can so healing isn't that great an effect. The Black Sword's bonus to normal and charged attacks is really nice on a few specific characters (like Ayato) but for most other sword users it's just a crit rate stat-stick.

I don't think this is a Serpent Spine situation where a 4-star is easy to obtain AND better than most 5-star weapons. The Black Sword is good but not better than other 5-star swords like Jade Cutter, Mistsplitter, or even the Skyward Blade debatably. If more characters could use it's NA/CA boosting passive we'd be having a different conversation though.

Diona was a more recent addition to the page. While I feel she's the best shield generator after Zhongli and fills a lot of support roles, I don't think she's gamebreaking. There's just way too much competition for cyro support these days with Shenhe, Rosaria, Kaeya, and even Chongyun and Qiqi. So I'm okay if she's cut.

Fischl I say keep for now. She's still a great battery unit and at C6 is still our best electro enabler. I can think of several characters that only work with Fischl support (Eula, Beidou, Yae Miko, among others).

Noblesse Oblige is another keep. 4 piece Tenacity isn't that good, the buff is really inconsistent. NO at least gives a burst damage buff so the support's damage isn't totally crippled. Pretty much every top level Abyss team has NO on someone, it's too generically useful.

Beidou is really good and I'm on the fence about adding her. She's definitely got the best burst in the game but it's only the best burst in the game against mobs, and lately we've had a lot of solo bosses on abyss floors. She's also got energy issues that only Fischl can solve.

Also want to comment of Blizzard Strayer, as while the passives are amazing I feel like it's users are too few.

I agree that Diona is the best shielder after Zhongli, but the utility of any shielder is kind of suspect because of how resetting floors works. If you die, you can always restart.

I have to disagree with the evaluation of the number of characters that is reliant on Fischl. Eula can use Raiden or Beidou to proc superconduct; she might even prefer Raiden but I'd have to check in with T Cers on that point. Yae Miko can also work with Raiden to the point where both are interchangeable. And Yae Miko doesn't seem to be particularly meta-relevant judging by how theorycrafting is shaking out so in a discussion about Game Breaking, I feel like the discussion should be more centered around established meta comps. Beidou in a taser comp might be the only one that's especially reliant on Fischl just because of her anti-synergy with Raiden, but that's a single mid-tier meta team. There's Sucrose Pokemon but that team is reliant on swirling Gooba so that honestly puts that comp as a meme team that happens to do good damage. I know Fischl is a good unit; I feel she's just not a great one on the level of the 5-stars in the game unlike the likes of Xingqiu, Bennett, and Xiangling.

But if you disagree, I'll put her back for now.

Personally, I see why you might put Beidou under the good ol' 4* national core of Bennett, Xingqiu and Xiangling, but she's an absolute spreadsheet monster and she does really, really well against the most problematic floors of recent Abyss cycles. If Beidou doesn't belong on the Game Breakers list then Fischl definitely doesn't in my opinion.

But blizzard strayer absolutely has to be on the list. The set singlehandedly elevates Ganyu and Ayaka above the rest of the 5* DPS carries and led to Morgana meta dominating Abyss for half a year.

For Blizzard Strayer it's really just Ayaka and some Kaeya/Rosaria variants that fully utilize it. Melt-Ganyu is just about as good with Wanderer or Shimenawa, and Freeze Ganyu isn't relevant anymore. It's not nearly as universal as other artifact sets on this list, and I don't think we want an entry for every single elemental damage boosting set.

While the set is nice in that it takes the pain of grinding for Crit Rate sub-stats away to focus on Crit Damage, that's all it's really doing. If you got really lucky with some godly RNG substat rolls, the crit rate bonus gets less and less useful since it's not improving your damage anymore. And the full bonus is tied to freeze teams, which again only Ayaka is meta relevant.

Trust me, I've got a 104% crit rate Xiao lol. At some point over 50% it's just gratuitous.

If you want to add Beidou I'm okay with it, as I agree her burst is VERY good and we keep getting new characters that let her shine (Kokomi, Yoimiya, etc). I still think her burst cost and single-target weakness hold her back a bit though.

Fischl I still think deserves an entry but if anyone else disagrees then I won't fuss anymore about her being cut. Maybe add a caveat about how her C6 really unlocks her power? Or we can pencil this in for re-evaluation once Dendro is added (3 updates? Maybe?). She's still good for now, but if she takes another viability hit then I'd say it's time to trim.

It's certainly news to me that Freeze Ganyu isn't relevant anymore. Morgana was more than serviceable in the initial Inazuma Abyss and in the cycles since has been adapted by nga for the rifthounds with +Rosaria -Diona and putting Mona on Amber to increase the freeze uptime. She had issues with single entity bosses but that's why resetting the Abyss exists. Ayaka might be more suited to these cycles but that doesn't make Freeze Ganyu irrelevant, just not as optimal.

And I don't think the takeaway from the free crit is that it's only good when you don't have the godrolls yet. That makes no sense since Blizzard Strayer can also godroll in crit damage and atk% and still have the free 55% crit. Mathematically, you don't hit diminishing returns on crit value until 380% total CV and even then from there, it's a one-to-one relationship between ATK% and CM Dmg: https://imgur.com/a/319FB7z

It's not a matter of adding every single artifact set for every single element, it's just a straight fact that Blizzard Strayer just gives the most out of any of the carry sets. Compare that to 4CW which gives +15% elemental damage and the equivalent of less than 100EM to 80 freaking CV, there's just no comparison.

Anyhow, I don't mind Fischl, but her section definitely needs updating to reflect her current team compositions.

On the subject of Beidou, perhaps we could add a brief summary of her potential under Magikarp Power?

Why? Her 2nd Constellation is a big power boost but she's still pretty good without it, and it's not like she's gotten any major buffs. What makes you think Magikarp Power would apply?

Dunno, everyone left and right is like "oh she's weak/awkward/etc. until X Y and/or Z happens" especially when after you yourself said "needs investment before she stands out". If you don't think so then no big deal

I said she has energy issues, as her burst is expensive and she has trouble getting it back off cooldown without a battery (Fischl, usually). That and her damage centers around bouncing her burst back and forth between two or more targets, making her single target damage underwhelming. But all that has nothing to do with Magikarp Power.

Opinions surrounding her are more like the initial opinions around Bennett and Xingqiu, stemming not understanding how to play with her rather than Beidou has suddenly improved. The Emblem Of Severed Fate set helped, and the release of more electro-charge enablers like Kokomi, but Beidou overall is still the same as she ever was.

I'm not entirely sure if Favonius is broken, but it's undeniably amazing for keeping Burst uptime on characters who really need them.

Sacrificial, I feel that one is definitely busted. Using Skills one extra time can mean everything from extra damage, heal, energy generation. A lot of Polearm users like Xiangling, Hu Tao, Zhongli and Xiao will be a lot stronger since their skill is essential to their kits, which is likely why no Sacrificial Polearm exists.

Edit: I changed my mind on this. I find Favonius to be a better because you're not always hoping on the double skill, but I do think Sacrificial has great worth as well. I think I'll merge the two in an entry I made

I think freeze is a valid playstyle but not busted in the same way that swirl, vaporize, or melt are.

Besides Bosses being immune, the biggest fault for me is that freeze doesn't deal damage on it's own. It just makes fights more controlled and less chaotic, and that can make your life easier but it doesn't help clear Abyss floors faster (for example) unless there are extra benefits too. One of the reasons Ayaka freeze is busted is that it allows all the hits of Ayaka's burst to connect, so it's less that freeze is good but more it's taking away one of Ayaka's flaws.

And you raised a good point that there aren't many viable freeze teams besides Ganyu and Ayaka (and Ganyu's arguably better as reverse melt).

For those reasons I'd say freeze is good but not game breaking.

Honestly, I would just remove the entry. From the few guide videos I've seen on Beidou, it's pretty clear that her cons outweigh her pros, and while she does have her niche, she fits more under Difficult, but Awesome rather than being a straight-up Game-Breaker.

That's my thinking. All the Gamebreakers are powerful right out of the gate, while Beidou takes skill, a couple constellations, and a specific team set-up to really shine.

Edit: Posted in the wrong place, sorry about that

Oh well look I have better things to do than discuss with toxic players, convinced not only that they have the truth in their pocket but they also do not mind denigrating the points of view of others, on the basis of a false or highly questionable objectivity and then hiding from it with fake impartiality (I'm also referring to the episode of Jean). Keep Ningguang hide or feel free to cut her off but see not to get in the middle of mine and others' work in the other pages related to Genshin because I have no tolerance with those who behave like a dictator when he/she has no authority and possession.

For my part, Stage has presented their case calmly and rationally, and their points are valid. A sufficiently well constructed team will destroy almost anything in the overworld. Meanwhile, because of Abyss's difficulty, it is the only portion of the game that actually needs a tier list, as it's easy to get stuck while relying on particular characters. Notice how most of the game-breakers here are support characters with off-the-field utility rather than DPS characters. Any DPS can hit huge numbers with the right supports supplementing their damage potential, so it's difficult for them to specifically stand out except by either hitting mind-shatteringly huge numbers before factoring in supports (as with Hu Tao), or to be both versatile and powerful as with Ganyu, who not only deals the huge numbers to justify having her as your on-the-field DPS, but also has a sustained support-style burst for off-the-field utility. Usage statistics may not necessarily be everything, and perhaps Genshin players are a bit obsessed with proving how "useless" characters are, but I think it's also true that these metas evolve in the first place for a reason. I should point out however that many other pages have "current" and "former" categories for their Game Breakers. I think it's worth chronicling formerly favored characters and strategies so that people can chart the course of the game's development and see why beloved playstyles fell by the wayside. I'd hate to see them simply forgotten.

I think we could add a "former" tab eventually. Right now I think only Diluc, Keqing, Klee, and Ningguang would end up there, and possibly Superconduct.

I think I like the idea of a separate tab, but maybe "honorable mentions" could be an alternative title. It can be reserved for formerly busted character and game mechanics or those that have the damage output of a real Game-Breaker but have some drawbacks preventing it from reaching said levels.

The likes of Klee and Ningguang are currently too weak to be considered broken, but they're too strong to not be acknowledged.

As for who else could be a candidate, I'd say Tartaglia. His damage can qualify as such, but his cooldown makes it so that he can't stay on the field for a long time.

The problem I see with that is a snowball effect as there are a lot of characters that are very good but held back by a weakness or two, so I can see the honorable mentions tab bloating to include almost everyone not mentioned as a proper gamebreaker.

I see your point, that would be bloated. Although I like the idea of a former tab, I can't think of who else would be there aside from Diluc, Klee, and Ningguang. But I feel like there would be more eventually with new characters coming out who would take the position of the former top ladders

It completely eclipses Maiden's Beloved as most dedicated healers have no problem getting you back to 100% health. So the extra healing bonus on Maiden's is not worth missing out on Ocean's free damage. Unless they have godly substats you might as well chuck all your Maiden's in the exp pyre.

I don't think Ocean is a gamebreaker though, at least just yet. It's only viable on Kokomi, Qiqi, and Barabara and often competes with Tenacity of the Milelith for if you want free damage or an attack buff to your DPS. It's very good, but not great.

However I am curious if it will get better once some other healers drop.

Ei is a very complicated case, because unlike Beidou (who's held back by A LOT of cons and is Difficult, but Awesome at best), Ei does have several benefits that are simply easy to use and understand.

In both casual and competitive play, most people (myself included) use Ei primarily as a battery because she's just THAT good at providing Energy Recharge, even at C0. I seldom see her being used as main DPS or sub-DPS often because the requirements like C2 and her 5-star weapon are not readily available to everyone.

That said, given that Spiral Abyss tends to change its lineup to suit the new characters coming out, I don't think we have enough conclusive evidence yet to definitively say that Ei is either high-tier or low-tier. We need to see if she still fairs well in future Abyss lineups.

I would say remove her for now until if it becomes really apparent that she's a Game-Breaker or not. On that note, keep an eye out for Cauchy Rerun When, because they have a Single-Issue Wonk in favor of Ei.

By all means, do it. Kazuha has already proven himself to be one of the best Anemo crowd control specialists, ironically beating out Sucrose (one of my mains) in that field.

I agree, cut it. Jean is good and has niche use as a "cleanser" in the Abyss but that's just it: a niche. All usage of her I've seen is either as an anemo battery for other characters, or a cleanser/healer. Her DPS capabilities are so-so and she has little support outside of cleansing/healing. She can't even take advantage of the swirl buffs without sacrificing her healing capabilities, as they scale off of different stats. She is nowhere near the level of the 5-star characters nor the omni-supports like Bennett, Xingqiu, and Sucrose.