Discussion Film / TheLastJedi

... yeah, tropes are flexible but they still break if you bend them too far. Unreliable Narrator isn't "a guy was wrong."

Please note that the removal was preceded by asking confirmation on the "Is This an Example" thread.

^^The example isn't "guy was wrong", the example is "scene initially seems set up to lead you to agree with Character A's subjective viewpoint, but if you consider the scene from the also-available clues to Character B's viewpoint, Character A was wrong".

^Yes, as cited in my OP. I believe that either the thread was wrong, or we're missing a super trope.

The example is factually incorrect, anyway. Poe doesn't antagonize Holdo "due to disagreeing with her plan to sacrifice the Resistance's capital ships to conceal transports carrying their personnel and whatever equipment they can fit aboard to a hiding place [...]". He antagonizes her and plans a mutiny because he thinks she doesn't have a plan and is full of bluster. Case in point: when Leia tells Poe what Holdo's plan is, he agrees with it. And let's not even get into how the explanatory sub-bulletpoints veer into WMG.

If you feel that Poe's actions need to be addressed somehow, try Sympathetic P.O.V.: the audience is lead to support a mutiny because the POV character believes this is the only way he can save everyone.

^1st para: "initially refused to tell him there even was a plan".

2nd para: That works.

That's a logical guess to make; the movie doesn't need to frame it as such. That's a rather obvious conclusion for the plan to have even a chance of working in the first place. Calling it a Plot Hole is rather nitpicky.

It is nitpicky, but its still a major moment in the movie. Saying he guessed is a meta justification and not an in story one. Thats Fanon. How he learned they had no shields is a major part of the plan failing, so him knowing it needs to be explained, and it isn't.

DJ is connected to arms dealers who explicitly sold gear to both the First Order and the Resistance. It's just a case of the filmmaker putting in all the clues and then relying on the viewer to connect the dots.

I don't think this is an example. Shouldn't the Aesop come first, then have the character preaching it going against it later?

^ additionally, there's a difference in what's going on. Holdo performs her Heroic Sacrifice to save the Resistance, ie "saving what she loves". Finn attempts his Heroic Sacrifice because he "won't let [the First Order] win". He's acting out of hate, not love, at that point.

^ Furthermore, the movie goes out of its way to point out that "saving what we love" is how the Resistance will win. Poe gains the respect of the survivors when he chooses to call off the suicide attack and look for an escape route. Luke shows up to buy enough time for the survivors to escape, not to stop Kylo Ren or the First Order. Those who act out of anger (Finn's attempted suicide attack), or pride (Poe's dreadnought attack and Holdo's stubborn refusal to reveal the escape plan) end up hurting the resistance instead of helping it.

So Rose read Holdo's mind and determined that her reasons for performing a Heroic Sacrifice were just, and then read Finn's mind and determined that his reasons were unjust, and acted accordingly? Huh.

I'm sorry, I don't see it. I see one character being admired for her Heroic Sacrifice, and then another character admonished for his attempt at one, and some very silly rhetoric going on to try to justify it after the fact.

How about these:

• Broken Aesop
  • Poe's subplot has his plan to save the Resistance failing due to its recklessness and compromising the much better plan Admiral Holdo was secretly enacting leading to massive casualties, teaching Poe against being a Military Maverick and against using Indy Ploy instead of by-the-book overt actions. But the only reason Poe enacted such a risky plan was because Holdo kept her plan, which Poe realizes he would have gone along with had he known, secret despite how dire their situation was causing Poe to think he had no other choice. Even if the secrecy was justifiable due to Poe's recklessness and the possibility of a enemy spy, Holdo failed to prevent Poe from enacting his bad plan and her own plan would ultimately have been compromised by the hypothetical spy which she seemingly did nothing about. Thus Holdo's overt methods which were supposed to be correct compared to Poe's improvised ones were just as guilty of making mistakes and contributing to the ensuing tragedy with Holdo's own ensuing improvisation of ramming the enemy fleet at lightspeed being portrayed positively.
  • Another Aesop is against needless Heroic Sacrifice, with Poe's pressing the attack on the dreadnought after it became unnecessary causing more causalities than it was worth and Rose preventing Finn's suicide attack against the battering ram cannon which was called off as it was more important to stay alive and fight another day. But the cannons successful firing would have doomed the heroes if not for the unforeseeable appearance of the Millennium Falcon and Luke Skywalker afterward, meaning the suicide attack was necessary as there were no other options at the time. The movie also presents Admiral Holdo and Luke Skywalker's sacrificing themselves positively despite similarly to Poe they were only necessary due to their mistakes (Holdo for not informing others of their plan casing it to fail and Luke for being unwilling to act until the last minute).

^^ There's also the fact that it was pretty much dumb luck that the cave had a passage through which the good guys could feasibly evacuate. If not for that, Finn's suicide run against the giant cannon would have been 100% necessary.

Yeah, the example works. Space just does whatever in fiction and Star Wars has never been any different.

While I believe that this entry makes a valid point, it's not exactly the correct one.

"Match their velocity" means "keep up with them". Therefore, matching velocity could mean keep a steady speed or match their acceleration rate. Either way, the term applies.

The problem is that the First Order's ships are said to be slower than Resistance's. Therefore, if both ships are constantly firing up their engines (as they're doing in the movie) to accelerate, burning all their fuel in the process, then the Resistance ships will eventually get out of the First Order's range. See Newton's second law.

I think that this is the point that should be stressed rather than the fact that they match velocities.

Edit: Also, the fact that the Resistance ships just stop dead in space when their fuel runs out. That is not how space works; they should have kept moving until they hit something or got hit by something. See Newton's first law.

The example is back in place thanks to a moderator, and the edit-warring editor was suspended.

I think we agree the example can stay, but would need a bit of expansion/clarification.

I believe it's officially referred to as Crait.

I agree. Most of the entries are either Word of God or lack of screentime together.

Maybe. Consider that even if Finn succeeds in destroying the cannon, the Resistance is still screwed.

It looks like a very big stretch and shoehorned example, indeed.

It sure as hell wasn't and isn't...

You're absolutely correct on both counts. Unless the guy warring with you wants to come in and defend himself, I say we revert and add [yet another fucking] commented-out note at the top of the page.

There are more than one betrayer.

Quick wiki search: There were twelve disciples (later apostles, except for Judas Iscariot who was replaced by Matthias after his betrayal and subsequent suicide). The total number of disciples, as in "people who followed Jesus' teachings but didn't follow him around", is estimated to be seventy or seventy-two.

So, besides the fact that it wasn't just one betrayer, as R Alexa21th already said, the initial number isn't right either.

Edit: You're reading too much into this, Troper. :P

Meh, I'm probably rusty, it's been ages since I looked into it. I remembered it as "twelve apostles+Judas", anyway, not "twelve apostles period".

... and I'm completely aware I read too much into things, that habit has never left me, even if I don't always take it seriously.

I also think it's a good idea.

Is anyone going to lock it?

It might be too late for that now.

Already done.