- The Inkheart trilogy slowly became more and more of this as a whole for this reader. The tone of the books became so melodramatic that it was impossible to read. The characters quickly became dislikeable (Meggie and Dustfinger were surprisingly annoying to this troper) or just too vague (Mortimer). The villian's death at the end of the first book was treated like tragedy. There was also this awful moment where a daughter whose father had been gone for about a decade with good reason just gave him a horrific "reason you suck speech"—-and I just hated her for it, because she did nothing that made me actually like her or feel sorry for her. Meanwhile, his wife, after a brief moment of silent surprise, just started talking to him like he'd been gone since yesterday. The narration was always ridiculously biased, there was a book in the series ''named'' Inkheart that we never got to hear the plot of, even though it sounded more interesting; also, they brought ''Tinker Bell'' into the series. Seriously—-Tinker Bell. (Yes, it is a story about bringing things from books to life, but using an actual fictional character was sort of weird!) Oh, and we had to read dozens of quotes from various books at the beginning of each chapter (that would vaguely relate to said chapter), many of which were from pretty obscure books—-but wait, the last chapter of the last book didn't have one! God, I could list a bazillion more things that bothered me about these books, but I've gone through too much already. And no, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion of them, I'm just stating my own.
unsigned
This "example" looks like a contestation of "Woolie Wool: The rape scene in The Chronicles Of Thomas Covenant."
- Ptorq: Not contesting this, but I'd like to point out that if you literally gave up on the series at that point, you missed out on "why." The incident serves to set up a lot of repercussions and angst that don't become apparent until later (some of them don't manifest until the second and even third books; and Covenant is still paying for it in a way in the second series). The timing is admittedly awkward in that it would probably have been better to let the reader get a bit more invested first.
- Tropers/DARTHYAN: The Quintillions actually came from Abel pena's lord of war article, and given just how big a galaxy is the idea that there isn't quintillions of life forms is ludicrous.
I'm talking about quintillions of combat droids in the Separatist army. Also, the stated population of the Republic in the AOTC movie novelization, which is a higher canon source than these other people are, is "trillions of commonfolk". Even allowing for 3 orders of magnitude in wiggle room, that still means that the Separatist army outnumbers every man, woman and child in the Republic (as in, the group they're seceding from) by at least a thousand to one.
Edited by Peteman Hide / Show Replies
Double-checked: Abel Pena's Lord of War article came out in 2006. The quintillions of droids line hails at least as far back as the ROTS Incredible Cross-Sections book (specifically the Juggernaut article), which came out in 2005.
So I'm pretty sure I blamed the right person, and I'm pretty sure the discrepancy between the army and population as stated in the C and G canons still stands.
Edited by Peteman
abel pena still accepted it as canon, and trillions of common folk is still two damn small when talking about a galaxy bigger than the milky way. Producing cheap droids is far easier than producing humans, and the ones producing tons on genonisis are said to be outdated. IT's also in the war book.
So it's still a sense of Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. Saxton actually is a scientist, so his estimation is a lot more credible than yours.
Your first argument was that the quintillions first appeared with Abel Pena in the Lord Of War article. It didn't. The numbers predates him by at least 10 months. Also, what makes Abel Pena so special when there are other people who have given smaller numbers and The Clone Wars cartoon (which, however nonsensical it is, is still higher than these authors) treats a few million extra droids and clones like it's some big game changer?
Second, Saxton's credibility as a scientist is irrelevant when determining what is and isn't canon. His work is solely C-Canon, which is lower on the totem pole than the people who established the "trillions of commonfolk" in the Republic (I even accept upwards of three orders of magnitude when people make these statements, so quadrillions isn't out of the question, but trillions is a lower limit on the population of the Republic, which, when put next to the quintillions of droids, looks at the very least weird). So regardless as to what anybody's estimation is, the order of canonicity is more what determines what the numbers are, not opinion or analysis. His analyses may be extremely precise, but if he's ignoring the source material, then he's not analyzing Star Wars, he's analyzing fan fiction.
Thirdly, I am arguing more about the number of people in the Republic, not the galaxy as a whole (my comment on the population of the galaxy as a whole existed as a potential, but it was not the crux of my argument). The Republic has somewhere between 100'000 worlds (Phantom Menace novelization's comment about 10'000 Jedi on 100'000 worlds) or 1.5 million systems (some C-Canon other sources), and the ANH novelization treats the million systems of the Empire like it's a tiny fraction of the galaxy as a whole instead of filling in every nook and cranny of it. If every star system in the Republic had a population the size of Corsucant (the ROTS novelization, which is the highest canon source that says anything, puts it at 1 trillion), then the Republic would still not break 2 quintillion people. And that's ignoring the fact that very few planets are like Coruscant, and most aim toward populations the size of Corellia.
Why are the Separatists fielding an army 2-6 orders of magnitude bigger than the total population of the organization they are trying to leave, and all the requisite maintenance, production facilities, transportation, and other logistical considerations, when one of the big reasons they are pissed off against the Republic is money? Just because you can field these things, doesn't mean you have to nor is it a good idea economically.
It's not that I don't have a sense of scale, it's that the lack of a sense of scale is inherent to the system, and his attempts to change that result in huge inconsistencies in the original works at best, and create failures in the sense of scale in the opposite direction at worst.
Edited by Peteman
As you may be aware, all entries now need to be signed. Which means this page is going to go blank since I don't see any signed entries.
Edited by triassicranger Hide / Show Replies
Don't do that. You can't expect for everyone to rush back to this page to sign their works just because of a new ruling. Only cut new entries without signatures.
I'm sorry but the guidlines are clear, unsigned entries are no longer permitted.
I'll give it a few days...
Well I gave it a few days and I came up with a solution, but there were entries that were still deleted. Here are a few:
- Richard Rahl deciding that anyone protecting the enemy was evil, rather than just really, really misguided.
- As a "straw that broke the camel's back", I submit Marty Stu's real parentage as stated in Brisingr.
- MostlyHarmless: The absolute nadir was the death of Fenchurch. Seriously, that may well be single most useless character death in the history of fiction.
- Tales Of The Bounty Hunters: IG-88 takes over the second Death Star. The energy that goes into banging that wall could blow away Alderaan
- The Twilight series has a bunch of creepy and badly written moments, but the one that stands out in my mind was when Bella was "flattered," to find out her new boyfriend - with the very, very strong urge to drink her blood - had been secretly breaking into her house for the last few weeks to watch her sleep. He even offers up the excuse that he had nothing better to do at night. Yes, Edward, it's perfectly okay to stalk someone every night because you're bored.
- For this troper, the Dethroning Moment Of Suck for Twilight occurs at the end of the fourth book "Breaking Dawn", when the horde of enemies bows to the Contractual Immortality of the Mary Sue Empress and her Tastes Like Diabetes daughter and walks away without even starting the massive battle they came for. I was expecting a Fight Scene, goddamnit! Or at least a Bolivian Army Ending.
- I propose an honourable mention to the Vamp Tooth Caesarean. Oh, hell, an honourable mention to Renesmee in general starting with THE NAME.
- I checked out way earlier in the series — at the end of book one, after spending almost 1/3 of the book setting up the huge confrontation between the Cullens and The Big Bad, the whole fight happens off-camera while Bella is unconscious.
- I propose an honorable mention to the fact that the vampires SPARKLE. It makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever even in context and felt like a really, really really bad cop-out. Yes, it's creative, but it gave way for TONS of Fridge Logic.
- How about Edward taking apart Bella's engine and having his (vampiric, much more powerful) sister kidnap Bella so that she can't see Jacob? And with the flimsy excuse that it was for her safety. I was so frustrated after this point - why would she want to stay with someone who could and chose to control her like that?
- For me, the worst part of Twilight was Jacob's Character Development. I was fine with the wolf thing—that was hot. But later, in the fourth book, where he imprints on an infant was just SICK. AND. WRONG. to me. Sure, Meyer may have said that it's not like that yet, but the "yet" implies that it will be. So. Great. Beastiality and Pedophilia. Icky, icky, icky! I also have that issue with the whole Edward/Bella thing. They even said it in the second movie!! "Maybe I shouldn't be dating such an old man. It's gross." << Said by BELLA.
More things:
- For me, the DMOS is John Galt's speech at the end. Fiction is supposed to illustrate the ideas, through the actions of the characters, not by having a character recite a 90-page essay. It's a failure to understand the medium of fiction.
- The credibility of Galt's speech isn't necessarily improved by the following fact: While John Galt was capable of changing more or less the entire world with his words and actions, was Ayn Rand in real life incapable of convincing her own sister to NOT return to the Soviet Union after her visit to the United States. *
- For me, the DMOS is John Galt's speech at the end. Fiction is supposed to illustrate the ideas, through the actions of the characters, not by having a character recite a 90-page essay. It's a failure to understand the medium of fiction.
- Voldemort's "death scene". So we're at the end of the series, the prophecy that either Harry or Voldemort has to die is about to be fulfilled one way or another, Harry's learned a handy little Sectumsempra spell in the previous book that's not illegal to use and can at least slit Voldemort's throat if not decapitate him, and what does Harry do? He uses the completely nonlethal Expelliarmus. It works, but that's beside the point... by using the spell in the first place Harry has gone beyond Badass Decay into Chick territory. Keep in mind also that the guy Harry is fighting in this scene is not only a Complete Monster but a rather Anvilicious Captain Ersatz of Hitler.
- I was disappointed that the last battle was not a test of skill, strength of will, attitude or anything, but essentially down to a formality. But I killed him! I will win!" "Au contraire! His death was planned, and then I disarmed the guy who disarmed him before, so I win! Seriously, I expected more badassery, less bureaucracy.
- What pissed me off about it was that Harry and Voldemort finally come face-to-face, for the last time...And they just stare at each other, and start monologuing. WHAT. Jesus Christ, don't stand there talking, FINISH EACH OTHER OFF!
- Harry telling Voldemort to "try for some remorse". Stupid line. Yes, it was foreshadowed, but that doesn't detract from the stupid.
- To me, the terrible sue-laden epilogue is the ultimate dethroning moment of suck. Just, ugh, what was J.K. Rowling thinking!? It's like she got some random fangirl from fanfiction.net to write it!
- Voldemort's speech before he has his big final battle against Harry. I'm sorry, Rowling, I was under the impression that I'd bought a fantasy novel and not a stammering argument about how Harry Potter isn't a Gary Stu. Get to the fucking fight already.
- I was disappointed that the last battle was not a test of skill, strength of will, attitude or anything, but essentially down to a formality. But I killed him! I will win!" "Au contraire! His death was planned, and then I disarmed the guy who disarmed him before, so I win! Seriously, I expected more badassery, less bureaucracy.
Took out this badly indented Justifying Edit:
- Be: You've missed the point and impressively, because it's even spelled out in the book. It's known as the jerk equation because while the men aren't interested in her because they think she's out of their league, Tawneee thinks the men think she's unattractive and that the men are jerks accordingly. It's got nothing to do with Nobby being a jerk.
I'm cutting this entry, and will explain why below the quote.
- TenderLumpling: Remus Lupin trying to abandon his pregnant wife in Harry Potter And The Deathly Hallows. Up to that point, Lupin was the most well-adjusted, accessible, and above all reasonable adult in the series. Then he went to Grimmauld Place and tried to join Harry, Ron, and Hermione on the Horcrux-hunt after telling them that (1) Tonks was pregnant and (2) he wanted to join them because he thought he was stupid for even marrying her, let alone getting her pregnant Okay, he had a good reason for not being happy that she was pregnant -namely, he didn't want to pass on his lycanthropy to another generation- but that is not a good excuse for abandoning her. Basically, he was saying, "I can't face up to my duties as a husband and father, so I'm going to re-live my Marauder days!" Considering how much Rowling values courage, and how popular Lupin is, the decision to have him do something so cowardly is just mind-boggling.
- Thursday: Agreed, Lupin's behavouir was really low, but more or less all of Harry Potter And The Deathly Hallows was a disappointment; the three hereos go camping half of the book and suddenly they find everything they need when Rowling decides to throw together every loose thread she had created in the books before regardless of how pointless it seems to fit it in and don't get me started on the epilogue. Rowling really must believe Readers Are Morons they way she leaves no ends open to imagination.
I don't think this is a relevant criticism, because what it says is "the book lets me down by actually condemning the behavior that I think should be condemned". I think this shows a bit of confusion about what characterization is. Characters can and should be flawed and make bad decisions—otherwise there will be very little conflict and no development. In this case, it was a good call to have Lupin do something really awful—it 1) revealed a believable (and ultimately forgivable) fault in his character, which was just a bit too stainless up to this point, and 2) removed an otherwise obvious ally, thus making the task harder for the protagonists, and 3) gave Harry an opportunity to show that he had grown up a bit himself.
If anything, Rowling gets Anvilicious with the message that Lupin is going the wrong way. Not only is he immediately chewed out by Harry, in later appearances his statements and actions show that he has completely changed his mind about the whole thing.
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hoodiecrow: I'm going to put Tender Lumpling's entry back in with my own thoughts on the matter (because in my mind Lupin's abandonment was an IN-UNIVERSE dethroning moment) but I agree with you about Thursday just bitching.
In that case, you should post it as your own DmoS and leave TL's stuff out.
What you call "in-universe DmoS" is actually more properly termed What the Hell, Hero? (and listed as such on that page). I don't think Broken Pedestal really applies either.
ETA: I'm making the first change myself.
Edited by hoodiecrow
I have deleted the Inkheart trilogy entry made by Whizzer Mckwoff due to it being in violation of the "specific moments only, no 'everything he said' or 'the whole thing'" rule. I'm leaving the original post here. If peteman is reading this, try to pick a specific moment from that trilogy and use that for the DMOS.
The Inkheart trilogy slowly became more and more of this as a whole for this reader. The tone of the books became so melodramatic that it was impossible to read. The characters quickly became dislikeable (Meggie and Dustfinger were surprisingly annoying to this troper) or just too vague (Mortimer). The villian's death at the end of the first book was treated like tragedy. There was also this awful moment where a daughter whose father had been gone for about a decade with good reason just gave him a horrific "reason you suck speech"—-and I just hated her for it, because she did nothing that made me actually like her or feel sorry for her. Meanwhile, his wife, after a brief moment of silent surprise, just started talking to him like he'd been gone since yesterday. The narration was always ridiculously biased, there was a book in the series named Inkheart that we never got to hear the plot of, even though it sounded more interesting; also, they brought Tinker Bell into the series. Seriously—-Tinker Bell. (Yes, it is a story about bringing things from books to life, but using an actual fictional character was sort of weird!) Oh, and we had to read dozens of quotes from various books at the beginning of each chapter (that would vaguely relate to said chapter), many of which were from pretty obscure books—-but wait, the last chapter of the last book didn't have one! God, I could list a bazillion more things that bothered me about these books, but I've gone through too much already. And no, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion of them, I'm just stating my own.
Edited by 72.160.240.237