Discussion Characters / DarkSoulsIIILordsOfCinder

For the purposes of TvTropes, given that the game itself gives the "Lord of Cinder Fallen" message upon defeating them, I would say that they are.

I will acknowledge that it's ambiguous in canon, but given the nature of Dark Souls's plot it's nearly impossible to prove one way or another. My fear is that if we do put the Twin Princes off the Lord of Cinder page, we'll get more people later on adding them back and perpetuating the edit war.

The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and my personal opinion is that they stay on the Lords of Cinder page.

Personally I'm fine with them staying on the page, that was never really the issue honestly. The issue is their entrees and tropes. Yes there is some odd, conflicting things about them being/not being a Lord of Cinder but I firmly believe they aren't and there is a good amount of evidence. My suggestion is this; leave them here, acknowledge the ambiguous nature of their situation, but since the majority of evidence is stating they did not link the fire, make the rest of their tropes appropriate. Again I can pull up all the evidence if needed.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with explicitly stating that they did not ever Link the Fire. Your evidence had better be pretty conclusive if you expect people to leave this alone, especially given the more common view of the Twin Princes is that they have Linked the Fire once before.

Let me be clear: I am not attacking you or your ideas. I am simply concerned about people arguing over lore details in the example entries.

I already said it in my message to you but as long as you don't answer those question I will consider them Lord of Cinder. Explain how they are embered (which is explicitly stated you enter Lord of Cinder mode when you consume an ember) if they are not Lord of Cinder, Why do the message say Lord of Cinder fallen? Why Lothric has a throne? Why their clothes show clair sign of having burn? Why did he release the same fire thing as the other Lord of Cinder during the cutscene with the Firekeeper?

So, let me discuss the Ember form issue. Lorian uses a sword scorched by demon fire, here's the item description;

"Before Lorian embraced his brother's curse, he was a knight who single handedly slayed the demon prince, but the victory eternally scorched his sword with flame. Skill: Flame of Lorian Lunge forward to transform smolder into flame, and follow with strong attack to launch flame across ground."

During the fight with him in phase one, the sword is already emitting flames and he uses fire attacks, making him the only person associated with the Lords of Cinder to have flames before phase two. When phase two starts, the flames on his sword cover all of it, and are oozing off the blade. The flames of his sword give off an embered effect, and when he uses it this way in phase two he has flames cover small parts of his body. When you fight the Gru in Smoldering Lake, they too have flames across their bodies, even the crabs there have ember effects to them. The common thread of these three is Demons, and the chaos flame. Those who wield, or are near it, gain embers when using their power. The Gru, Crabs, the Bird like Pyromancer Demons, all of them have the ember effect, and Lorian's sword specifically states his sword was scorched eternally. Therefore, if Lorian was a Lord of Cinder, why would he have his sword be engulfed with flames at the start, he gets back up and uses the power of the flame of his sword, causing an embered like effect since it's a demonic flame. Also there is no Lord of Cinder mode, that is incorrect. When you use an ember, you are using it to channel the flame into yourself.

The item description says; "No Unkindled can ever truly claim the embers that burn within a champion’s bosom, which is precisely what makes their yearning for warmth so keen. Gain the strength of flame and increase max HP until death. With the strength of fire, the summoning signs of Unkindled become visible, and seekers of embers can be summoned to join in co-operation. But beware the embers may also attract invaders." Unkindled are not Lords of Cinder, they are those who failed in becoming Lords of Cinder but linked the fire. Thus you call on the flames to boost you. Also, Lothric himself never uses fire in the boss fight. Not once, he never has any fire attacks, no fire pyromancies, no fire anything. All the fire comes from Lorian, who uses a demonically fire scorched sword. The Lords of cinder use the power as a Lord of Cinder, since they were one, to channel the flame when you fight them. Lorian and Lothric can't be since they never linked the flame.

The reason? Their soul outright states; "Soul of the Twin Princes. One of the twisted souls, steeped in strength. Use to acquire numerous souls, or transpose to extract its true strength. The two princes rejected their duty to become Lords of Cinder, and settled down far, far away to watch the fire fade from a distance. A curse makes their souls nearly inseparable."

Their soul outright states they rejected their duty to become Lords of Cinder, not rejected their duties as Lords of cinder. It outright says they didn't become it. Lorian himself states he doesn't care for the mantle of lord or the fire linking curse.

Emma says there isn't any lords at Lothric, then, before she dies, says; "Prince Lothric is in your hands. Please save his soul. Tell him what he must be... a Lord.", and if you attack her when you first meet her; "What on earth?" "Whatever is this about?" "A Lord, he must be... My dear Prince...Lothric..."

Now for your reasons. None of your reasons are really good questions but easy to answer. Their listed as "Lords of Cinder fallen" because Lothric was supposed to become a Lord of Cinder but refused. He is meant to be one, and is refusing. You force him into the role upon his defeat, he isn't a Lord of Cinder, but he was always meant to. Lothric has a throne because it was made before decided not to become a Lord of Cinder. His throne calls him; "Holy King Lothric, Last of his Line.", Lothric never became a king. His sword, Lothric's Holy Blade, says; "Young Lothric was meant to be a champion, and was expected to wield this platinum sword, but some things will remain distant dreams forever.". He never got the sword, and it was meant for him to have when he became a Lord of Cinder. Since he never became one, he never recieved the sword, and this ties into his throne. He was supposed to become a Lord of Cinder and be crowned Holy King Lothric, yet refused. Firelink Shrine is physically located in Lothric, and the Untended Graves are very much implied to be a Firelink shrine where the fire died. The Queen of Lothric visited a grave there, so logically they made the throne for Lothric, and he refused.

Their armor is not burned. However, if Lorian's armor looks burned, then thats because the demons but you are reaching with that, their clothes aren't burned. As for Lothric's, he wore the same clothes since birth so yeah.

The final point is because, again, they were meant to be lords of cinder but didn't. They needed to link it, refused, and thus you need them to become a Lord of Cinder to do so. I should add that Lothric's remains are different from the others. The others are skulls and remains of their bodies, all burned away or with embers. Lothric's head is dark and scorched, no flames on it. He never linked the fire, so his remains show he was just now burned, not burned a second time.

I understand it's a difficult subject, but what proof is there besides the "embers" and the "lords of cinder fallen" thing is there? These are all things I found while playing, I didn't use reddit only to see what people thought. I don't know why me mentioning I looked across the internet for things I missed has been used to discredit me, but all this stuff I found in game.

Let me try to offer a compromise here: leave the Twin Princes on this page, since they are, as keyblade said, meant to be a Lord of Cinder and the game itself considers them as such.

But alter the descriptions to accurately reflect that they did not Link the Fire, and they turned away from becoming the Lords that they should have been until the Ashen One forces them into the role.

Is this acceptable?

Also, keyblade, sorry if I came across as harsh in my PM regarding Reddit. I only wanted to impress that Reddit is not a source that can be cited as an authority, that's all.

That's a compromise I'm totally fine with. I don't mind them being listed on the page as Lords of Cinder, I just originally moved them because I figured it was the right way to keep things accurate. I just happened to notice all the information that suggested they didn't link the fire and was trying to correct it.

It's fine, I shouldn't of taken it harshly, I just know that places like reddit are difficult to rely on but I didn't think to account for that.

... you know stating the same thing didn't make me see thing differently. This thing about the flame from the sword making them embered is nonsense. Sorry if I come across as harsh but it is what it is, nonsense. Where is it only implied that the sword can do that? Also the "champion" from the description obviously refers to the Lord of Cinder, like all 3 dark souls wiki refer to the consumption of an ember as entering Lo C mode. The fire thing from the firekeeper cutscene is because he was meant to link the fire ... sorry I am not accepting that. Also when you kill Lothric the eclipse become worse just like when you kill the other ... let me geass, it's because he was meant to link the fire. Finally Gundyr too was meant to link the fire but he get no throne, why is that? and the Lord of Cinder Fallen is pretty big, it's like the difference between Prey Slaughtered and Nightmare Slain in Bloodborne.

I've literally used everything in game to answer your question but you keep reaching desperately. Gundyr had literally nothing to do with the issue of the twin princes for starters but ive already explained this to you. You are not making sense and yet you call all that evidence nonsense? Where is any evidence, ignoring "Lord of Cinder Fallen" and the ember effect, both i have already discredited as sources of evidence. Prove they aren't lords of cinder, as I have proven they aren't.

The swors outright states; "Ultra greatsword of Lorian, Prince Lothric's older brother. Cast in smoldering molten steel, and stained black.

Before Lorian embraced his brother's curse, he was a knight who single handedly slayed the demon prince, but the victory eternally scorched his sword with flame.

Skill: Flame of Lorian

Lunge forward to transform smolder into flame, and follow with strong attack to launch flame across ground."

It literally says it was scorched externally. Why else would he use fire while Lothric doesn't? I'm getting frustrated with you over this, I've used everything in game to show you and you keep refusing everything and not giving any shred of proof to your claims. Now unless you can prove me wrong, then I think its clear they aren't lords of cinder. I really don't want to dwell on this anymore than I have been. I'm on mobile at the moment so if this keeps escalating I'll respond with evidence to correct your assumptions.

What are you talking about? I don't refute the fact that the sword is in flame because of the Demon Prince; I refute your "he gets back up and uses the power of the flame of his sword, causing an embered like effect since it's a demonic flame" nonsense to discredit the fact that the embers effect is a symptom of Lo C mode as stated by the game , by dark souls wiki and by other people too. Saying we will disregard those two things so my theory fits, isn't making me see you way, yes.

Also you didn't adress the fact that the eclipse became worse after their death, that's another argument beside those two.

You explained nothing about Gundyr; all you do is "Gundyr has nothing to do about it because I said so" whereas I, said that as a candidate to linking the First Flame, he should have a throne as Lothric did no? If people build in advance the throne of the Lo C, he should have but you offer no explanation as to why not.

I also noticed you didn't address the cutscene with the Firekeeper, so please correct my "assumption" with your "evidence" (of course, your "that's because he was meant to link the fire", don't count)

If you didn't refute the flames because of the Demon Prince, why are you still bringing it up? Lorian has a sword capable of using demonic/chaos flame, uses it in phase one, and only he uses flames in the battle. If they were both Lords of Cinder, why would Lothric not use it? Also Lord of Cinder mode is not an actual game term, so stop saying that. It's a fan term that was used when the game first came out and quickly was not used when people realized how little sense it makes, but I guess your'e that desperate for some illogical justification. I'm not seeing any shred of evidence still.

The eclipse gets worse because the world is literally dying, and it signals that you are on the edge of the fire fading. Like in Bloodborne, it's used to signify that time has passed in the world, I don't know what wierd sorta story you are trying to weave with it, but again, you have no evidence.

Gundyr LITERALLY has nothing to do with this. He was someone supposed to link the fire in his time and arrived to a shrine with no fire. He isn't unkindled, he never linked the flame. Not every person who links the flame is a Lord of Cinder, we the player are not a Lord of Cinder, Gundyr isn't either. If he was, where is his throne than? He was merely meant to link the flame, Lothric was meant to be a Lord of Cinder, it was what he family did to him. Whatever his curse was, it was done to make him capable of becoming one. The Lothric family was obsessed with the linking of the fire, so of course they'd make a throne for their future lord. Gundyr isn't anything related to a Lord of Cinder, if you looked into the games items like Souls, or how he, you know, doesn't have a Lord of Cinder fallen title, which you desperately have clung to for the Princes.

I've already discussed it, but he was meant to be a Lord of Cinder, so you force him to accept his duty and the Fire Keeper uses their souls to allow you to travel to the Kilm of the First Flame. You're being extremely patronizing for someone with no actual evidence. I'll say it again; provide evidence of your arguments please, I've answered and attempted to refute your points now try to prove me wrong. This is literally turning into a "He said, she said" situation and at this rate, I don't see any basis for your argument.

Nice dodge but you didn't address the embered effect and you say basically everyone is wrong to think embered = Lord of Cinder effect (it's easier to said that so I would just stick with it)

Of course, you are saying that killing the Lord of Cinder and the eclipse has nothing to do with each other and their perfect timing are merely coincidence, I understand but I don't agree with you at all

"Gundyr was once an Unkindled (Champion of Ash) like the player", please get your fact straight before answering. Can you please explain the difference between someone who link the fire and a Lord of Cinder? (with game evidence of course, not your headcanon)

Also, I don't know where you get your idea that it is lothric family who decide those thing, add the fact that Lothric refers to liking the fire as "the fire-linking curse".

You take their souls when you beat them, the cinder are completely different thing as well as the "fire they surrender" (straight from the mouth of the fire keeper)

And I found you particularly condescending with treating everything you said as fact while everything I said as assumption.

Ive not dodged a single thing! I've answered every single point you've made and provided. Also you literally copied the description of Gundyr from the wikia and Gundyr never linked the flame, it says so in his soul description if you would actually read it, so get your facts straight before you call me out. You've basically ignored everything I've said, refused to provide evidence, and then act extremely rude for no reason. I've been trying to debate you as was asked by the community and everytime you respond is you being. Go research stuff before you try to argue.

The embered effect is on their clothes, why do you bring the flame (from the demon Prince) on the sword of Lorian, they literally have nothing to do with each other, your ridiculous theory with the demonic flame of the sword grant them embered effect is nonsense. Before you bring a better explanation for the ember effect other than this nonsense, I will not agree with you.

Just because you respond doesn't mean I have to agree with you (far from it). Your explanation for the eclipse is ... and you didn't address the fact that each time a lord of cinder died, the eclipse became worse and for you that's merely coincidence, of course, just merely the world dying, that make so much sense (sarcasm is sarcastic).

.... Also you agree with me, no? Gundyr never linked the flame (like Lothric) but was destined to do so (like Lothric), and as the throne for the Lord of Cinder are constructed in advance (by your own theory), he should have his right (like Lothric). I can't make what my argument is more evident.

As for the firething from the firekeeper, I already said why everyone of your theory doesn't explain it and are unfounded.

Also, that's becoming annoying, do you even read what I wrote? I have enough, this conversation go nowhere. Let's just agree to disagree and await another person opinion.

...so, anyway, my suggestion is to keep the Princes on the Lords of Cinder page with their tropes edited to reflect the ambiguity of whether they Linked the Fire or not. keyblade seems fine with this, what say you, Sarakael?

Well, his editing was flat out saying they have not linked it, I am not against making it ambiguous, even if I still can't warp my head on the embered effect and other things.

As a final coment I firmly believe they aren't Lords of Cinder and have given factual evidence from the game itself to support it. I can't say the same for the argument for them Lords of Cinder but I believe Dark Hunter's idea is for the best since this hasn't gone anywhere. Let's just move on.

Very well, I will try to reword the entry to be appropriately ambiguous. If either of you take issue with the way I've worded things, please let me know. Other than that, we'll call this discussion closed.