Discussion Characters / BeautyAndTheBeast

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Also the "60 eggs" has again been added to this example even though the story makes it very clear that he eats the eggs to grow large, not because he's a glutton.

True, but eggs are still protein and too much of that at a time could be dangerous. People that eat very high protein diets have a higher risk of kidney stones. And how do we know that he got those big muscles of his from eating so much rather than actually working out?

And what about his overall Lack of Empathy for the other villagers? That sounds more like selfishness than pride to me.

Sloth is defined as refusing to "change his ways out of his own arrogance". That's the same as saying his own pride prevents him from seeing a reason for him to change. Otherwise, it's hard to see the strapping, physically-fit, ultimate hunter as demonstrating Sloth.

In-universe, Belle calls him "positively primeval", which basically means he has a backwards way of thinking. In other words, he's a Psychopathic Manchild in the sense that he never cared to grow up. If he doesn't care about growing up, that may be prideful but it's also fairly mentally lazy.

Also, Frollo's example for sloth in his 7DS section is never taking responsibilty and blaming others (which is exactly what Gaston does by the end of the movie too).

For that matter, why stop just at Gaston? Most of the other character could have entries as well. Cogsworth with his stuffy, overbearing attitude also embodies Pride, Lumiere has a healthy showing of Lust with the feather duster, Mrs. Potts and the kitchen Chef both display a willingness to promote Gluttony given the huge amounts of food and drink on dumped on Belle during "Be Our Guest", Le Fou's rotund appearance also signals Gluttony, Monsieur D'Argue's Greed is more important than his sense of justice and Belle herself even gives into Wrath when she yells at Beast for making her a prisoner.

Good fair point, but those other characters only seem to display one sin at a time. I assume if a character has less than three sins applied to them, then it's not really relevant and it's basically just a repeat of the other tropes' entries.

Plus Gaston is the main villain, and villains are more likely to sin than heroes are.

I agree with OP. And this fixation is not just about Gaston but villains in general. Frollo and Scar also have Seven Deadly Sins entries that try to make them fit into all seven, but some sins are clearly just shoehorning.

I still think Gaston displays gluttony, in both ways. Even if you discard the pride, he has a very clear Lack of Empathy for others. He tricks the villagers into following him into a deathtrap just to satisfy his own needs, is uncaring about Belle's feelings and treats his best friend LeFou like absolute shit for no reason. And again, high protein diets can be very much fatal.

Sloth is more trivial but still present. During his 'proposal' scene, he doesn't wipe his dirty boots before stepping into Belle's home and expects her to message his feet every day after a hunt when they're married. Is he a slouch apart from that (especially when it comes to hunting)? Well no, but this example is still better than nothing.

Here, read this article in case you still think gluttony involving eating eggs is still an invalid example.

I went and reviewed the entries for Scar and Frollo and found that troper Njein is determined to have both villains exemplify all seven sins even when it's a stretch to make them fit. They also have a penchant for playing the Satanic Archetype trope so it makes sense they'd want the villains to be as sinful as possible.

However, that's just their specific head-cannon at work. Nothing in the Seven Sins definition requires or expects a villain to be loaded with sins. This trope is simply a tool to help illustrate character design and/or character development. It's a device that shows how people are human.

There's nothing wrong with outlining multiple sins for a villain provided that they demonstrate the sin as a consistent part of their character. Otherwise you are cherry-picking examples (or as annette12 calls it "shoehorning") and it's just like the case of saying Belle demonstrates Wrath when she yells at the Beast, which is technically true, but not especially helpful as it doesn't fully define her overall character. It's just a moment where she's frustrated and angry at the Beast and snaps at him. Did she demonstrate Wrath... yes. Is she a wrathful person... not really.

Regarding Gaston. I think it's accepted here that Pride is his primary sin and defining character flaw. I think you can build a justifiable case that there is Envy at play and possibly Wrath.

However, Lust, Greed, Sloth and Gluttony just aren't. The current examples take a behavior of Gaston and say that it's an example of Sin X. Except that in these cases, there are other sins that could motivate the same behavior.

As I stated before, Gaston's fixation on Belle that's used to justify Lust and Greed, is not based on a desire for pleasure or a desire for things. It's a desire for a very specific thing... Belle. Gaston is a hunter, Belle is his prey. Gaston never fails to bring down his prey and make them a trophy. For Belle to resist hurts his ego and pride and he will triumph over her... whatever it takes.

Gluttony is the desire for excess which is being cast here as selfishness even though nothing on the tvtropes page encourages such a redefinition. But let's go with it... Is Gaston's selfishness driven by a desire to have, to consume, to not share (which leans toward gluttony), or is it driven by Gaston's statement "She's the most beautiful girl in town so that makes her the best... and don't I deserve the best?" (which leans toward ego and pride). Given how Gaston acts throughout the story, it really is ego and pride.

Sloth is the desire for rest (or to not put forth any more effort than needed). When Belle calls him "positively primeval" is it indicating that he's unwilling to put forth the effort to advance himself (ie sloth) or that he sees himself as such a paragon of manhood that there's no reason to change (ie pride). Regarding the muddy boots is it that he's too lazy to wipe them clean (ie sloth) or that he's Gaston who's visiting Belle, the lucky girl, to bestow upon her the gift of marriage and therefore it never even crosses his mind to wipe his boots (ego/pride).

As I said before, Gaston doesn't get any bonus villain points for demonstrating all seven sins. So what's the push to show all seven especially when stretching the point in order to do so?

I can support Pride, Envy, Wrath. I don't agree with Lust, Greed, Sloth and Gluttony .

I'm gonna wait until more people join this discussion to decide whether or not the 7DS entry should be edited out or not. I'm really tired of saying this over and over, but just because an example is somewhat downplayed doesn't mean it's not present at all.

Also no offense rva, but I think you're taking this way too seriously.

ATT thread link. Pride fits, the others are incidental at best and outright shoehorning/misrepresentation of the scene at worst (The whole point of the eggs is that he needs that many due to his rate of growth.)

I think the primary difference here is that you see the examples as "somewhat downplayed" and I see Lust, Greed, Gluttony and Sloth as being significantly downplayed and stretched to make them fit.

We can wait for more feedback on this discussion or consider raising this to either "Ask the Tropers" or the "Is this an example" thread.

EDIT: I see that you've already opened an ATT thread. "declaring war"??? Really?