Hmmmm, good question. I'll need to think about it. Certainly the Filipino translation seems to have served him poorly. Supreme Death Master, my fangirl ass!
I'm not talking about the translation blunders (And any discussions/arguments about it are moot and pointless, since this was a 70s show we're talking about; a time when people are still new to translating anime. I'll go out on a limb and say that the dub script, while far from perfect and admittedly has some narm-tastic moments, had served its purpose and not "desecrated the original" as some original Japanese audio purists assert,(I mean come on! What was done to Go Lion / Voltron was far worse) but that's for another topic). What I meant with RTDE is, as demonstrated by the Youtube link I have provided, there are sectors of the fandom that insist that he had it coming and is not deserving of sympathy...and whether they are from the Philippines or not is again, irrelevant, because not all of the RTDE-ers are Filipinos.
And on a parenthetical note: Supreme Death Master. That would make for a good meme.
Edited by ladycoffee WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.
Edited the Draco in Leather Pants to eliminate the Natter, and to make way for the Ron the Death Eater entry.
WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.
Shotamouse reporting.
I'll be starting a discussion about the Draco in Leather Pants entry here, to avoid Conversation In The Main Page. To pick up from the last comment; yes, part of his Freudian Excuse was the fact that he always had bad information, but I highly doubt that would stand in court if ever he survives and is tried. And the victims of the invasion and the jury won't give a damn about his Freudian Excuse, would they? And another thing: even Heinel himself knew what he did was wrong, that's why he committed suicide in the end by letting the flames consume him.
Edited by ladycoffee WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised. Hide / Show Replies
What I always got out of Voltes V was the Aesop that your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes, and it just might be possible to make him your friend. Kenichi Go finds out that his sworn enemy is quite literally his brother. And no, I'm not defending the Nazis, in case you were wondering. But I do think that the Iraqis view us Yanks in very much the same way we would view the Boazanians. I've never liked the Redemption Equals Death trope. If nothing else, especially in Heinel's case, it seems like a waste. Imagine his fire and passion and loyalty and courage and compitence on OUR side!
Edited by ladycoffee
No, I don't think you're defending the Nazis. And I will admit that I am a HUGE Heinel fangirl myself. On one hand I am a bit uneasy about the Ron the Death Eater treatment that he gets from some sectors of the fandom, IF their views are unfounded (this
being the most outstanding example of a zero-perspective RTDE-er). On the other hand, though, I still try to see things from a more realistic perspective, and there are those who are justifiably bugged that for all the sympathy that he gets, not a lot of people seem to think or admit that he STILL has to pay for what he did. Sure, he's by all means qualified to be a woobie by virtue of being born into the "wrong" environment; but he still IS a war criminal that should be punished, after all; tl;dr, they fear that it's almost as if the fans want him to be a Karma Houdini. Although speaking of karma; personally, I thought that death was a bit of a Disproportionate Retribution milked for all of its melodramatic worth, while the writers can make do with imprisonment or exile.
Thing is, the creators of the show INTENDED to create a fangirl response with Heinel. There's a reason they drew him that way in the first place. His death wasn't supposed to be karma or justice, it was supposed to be tragedy—-something that shouldn't have happened. The Japanese LOVE tragedy. The character that dosn't get the happy ending is the one they take to their hearts. Besides, how realistic does your perspective have to be about a giant robot anime? Seems to me that the people who get angry about villain fans need to recite the MST 3K mantra. I'd hate to think of Heinel in prison—that would be a fate worse than death. But I've recently come to the conclusion that the best possible fate for him would be life on a colony world out on the frontier, using his formidable talents to help a fledgeling civilzation thrive and grow. I think he'd be happy (much to his surprise) in a situation where it doesn't matter who he is, only what he can do. He could be the Peter Stuyvesant of a new world. BTW, where is this Voltes V fandom? I've only found a few fansites, none of which had much in the way of fanfic or fanart. Is there any VV fanfic out there that you know of , other than that elephant turd, "Voltes V Versus Voltron: the Godaikin Wars?" I've got to write an entry on that story for the So Bad It's Goodpage one of there days.
On a parenthetical note, I think Megumi should blow off Kenichi AND Ippei and date Daijirou instead. At the very least, she must be tired of wathing them whale on each other by now.
Oh, and here's a site you can't miss:Setsuna Yuuki's "Dark Prince" site. It's got lovely pictures of Heinel, Garuda, Richter and Sharkin, although some of them are a little perverse.
I'd suggest that you should air your thoughts about hating villain fans in the forums, in the It Just Bugs Me subforum. A lot of the other tropers needed to hear them badly. And while you're at it, start a Voltes V topic in the Anime/Manga section before we overrun this discussion page with parenthetical notes. Not to mention that we can ask other tropers if Heinel could still be considered a Draco in Leather Pants.
Yep, the Japanese do LOVE tragedy, and that's what I blame for the Darker and Edgier and True Art Is Angsty worship/trend that's the cause of me not wanting to watch any more of "mainstream" "mature" anime, but that's for another topic.
How realistic does your perspective have to be about a giant robot anime? Depends on how much the audience is willing to suspend their disbelief and not cause massive wall banging; which is, it takes very little to crash the audience of today's suspension. The concept of giant robots by itself is already outlandish, so there must be some form of reality in other grounds (eg, the story itself). Because let's face it, it's as if A Million Is a Statistic is used a LOT in these shows, and the millions of faceless lives lost in the war just don't count against the sympathetic backdrop of the perpetrator. Sure, he shouldn't have died, but like I said in the opening post, if he survives, what if he gets capital punishment? He would be damned anyway....and also, a life sentence is not that bad. There's always the "Get Out of Jail Free" Card nearby, if anyone wants to use his ahem, talents.
Not to sound confrontational or anything, but do you have anything (interviews, articles, etc) that could prove that the creators intended the fangirl response? From what I can make from a translated transcript of an interview with Nagahama, it seems that his and the team's only intention was to challenge the Beauty Equals Goodness and Black-and-White Morality trend in mecha shows at that time (the 70s), and that the fangirl response was purely accidental.
By the Voltes V fandom, I don't mean a particular fansite or anything, but by my frequent net-wide rounds in search of forums with topic threads on this show for the past 10 years, and that's where I found those rather challenging views on how the "mainstream" audience who watched the show view the ending. And yes, the Godaikin Wars. Frankly, that GIFT of an author almost makes me ashamed of being a Filipino Voltes V fan. And also, I have already gone to Setsuna Yuuki's site long before you told me. Damn, I will never see Heinel in the same way again. And I don't even like Yaoi.
Edited by ladycoffee WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.
How do I know that the fangirling was intentional? Well...
I once obtained a translation of Heinel's character bio in the Roman Album. It didn't say a word about cruelty, ruthlessness, brutality or racism. It said that he was a graceful bishonen with a beautiful voice, and went on to descibe his woobieful past, his motivation for following Zanbajir, and his refusal to shed tears. The fold-out poster in the album shows Heinel and Kenichi clasping hands and smiling—-not the sort of thing you'd draw for a character you're supposed to boo and hiss. I have in my hands a guidebook to the show whose back cover (drawn by the origional character designer) shows Kenichi and Heinel with identical expressions of heroic resolve. The anime magazines of the time played up his sympathetic characteristics. There is a illustration in one of them, which I unfortunately don't have, that shows him smiling down among the flames, extending his sword in a warrior's blessing—not damned at all, but transformed into a fiery angel.
I also know that the Japanese admire the noble samurai who faithfully serves an unjust master. They're willing to absolve him from blame for the things the master makes him do. You and I may not agree, but there it is. They also have a long tradition of liking their enemies.
Lastly, it's hard to believe that Nagahama was unaware of the phenominal popularity of the other bishonen baddies, especially his own Garuda. I mean, look at these poll results. How periferal could a demographic be that involves 60% of your fans? If a response this lopsided is accidental, somebody screwed up somewhere.
Could you direct me to the forum thread you mentioned, please? I couldn't find it among the mountain of topics under Just Bugs Me. Frankly, I'm surpised at the amount on intolerance your views on Voltes V seem to be gathering. Anime fans don't act that way in the circles I run in. We don't forget that no real person ever suffered because of an anime character.
Edited by ladycoffee
It occurs to me that that last paragraph wasn't as clear as it should have been. I meant that I was surprised at how intolerant others were of your views. I didn't mean to imply that you were the intolerant one.
Here you go. Take note though; they're not talking about Voltes V, but about villain-fanning in general. It seems that the people who posted are too occupied with bashing the fans and deliberately overlook whether or not the characters in question deserved to be fanned over or not.
Actually, from what you told me, the way Heinel's bio was written might be interpreted as the WRITERS themselves were leather-pantsing him (Yuu Watase did that with Nakago. I know, Nakago's a bastard and could NEVER be compared with Heinel, but still, it can be done). Also, the polls only reflect the impact of the periphery demographic, and not disprove it. It was stated from the start that the intended audience was young Japanese schoolboys; and they weren't really the only people in Japan who watch TV, right? So it's no surprise that the (possibly older) fangirls suddenly start overtaking the audience as a -consequence-, not as the original intention. And also, I didn't mean that Nagahama was UNAWARE. It is even likely that he played up to the fangirl's fetishes, I won't disagree with that. What I meant was, the fangirls were NOT the initial audience he had in mind, and only learned of their existence later on. And lastly, lucky you. I tend to run into a LOT of Fan Dumb both in the internets and real life. I thought that I was safe with Voltes, being an older anime, but you saw in the You Tube link that I posted earlier how dead wrong I was.
And lastly, I've just made a Voltes V thread in the Anime/Manga subforum to avoid turning this discussion page into a message board by itself. Let's continue there.
I'm already worrying that I sounded a bit too forward/aggressive in the above post, although I didn't mean to. Uh, Gante, if you're still reading, can you try to post in the thread above so I can send you a PM? I'd really like to talk to you.
Edited by ladycoffee WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.
I'm not angry. It's just that it seemed to me that I'd said my piece and anything else would just be arguing in circles. Besides, Real Life has been happening to me, and I haven't had the time to keep it up. You mentioned needing help. What kind?
I've just sent the details to your PM box.
Edited by ladycoffee WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.
Log-in and then go to the forums. You can access the PM from the "mailbox" button (beside the "edit your profile" button). Actually, since I've just sent you a message, there'll be a notification at the forum top page....I assumed that you knew already since you've answered my first PM.
WARNING: This troper is a severe monomaniac. Caution is advised.
Sorry, but the message doesn't seem to have gone through. I'm afraid you'll have to send it again.
This is related to the above topic, but with enough merits to be a separate topic: Should I change Heinel's case into that of Ron the Death Eater instead?
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