Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Paging ~SamCurt and ~wingedcatgirl as requested.
I do think the name makes this sound broader than it actually is, but I think the original name makes it sound narrower than it actually is, in addition to being too dialogue-like.
As for whether mundane examples of freakiness should be allowed, if that isn't covered elsewhere, I don't think it would be a problem to broaden this to include them.
Edit: Maybe Freaky Is Shameful And Attractive or Freaky Is Shameful And Beautiful (or we could go with "Freakiness" instead of "Freaky") would work as names (at least if we expand to include mundane examples of freakiness). Kind of snowclones of Freaky Is Cool and possibly kind of clunky due to their length, but I can't think of anything else at the moment (and someone else can probably think of something better).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 23rd 2024 at 8:06:12 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I'm helping!
So the core of the trope is the exact sequence of events "character feels shame over fantasy trait, other character assures them it's great actually". As dialogue-y as the old title was, it didn't do what Freakiness Shame does and cut off the second half entirely.
We wouldn't be against removing the fantasy requirement, though I think we would want to make it clear that even a mundane trait has to be somehow unusual.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Very Spooky
I feel like this needs to be split into two tropes:
- The current definition (character B finds character A's disliked fantastical trait attractive)
- A character feels shame over a trait of theirs, without another the addendum of another character finding it attractive
There's some other expanding that could be done to account for the misuse, such as including mundane features such as scars (though only those unusual enough) and non-physical features. Not a fan of any name suggestion so far, however—perhaps One's Freaky, Another's Beauty? Might roll off the tongue a bit weirdly, though...
Edited by jandn2014 on Mar 23rd 2024 at 10:20:09 AM
back lol
I don't mind Tropers/jandn2014's suggestion re splitting, but is the (2) idea tropeworthy?
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Well, we have Appearance Angst, which may cover it.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Moving the "without B" examples back to the supertrope might be a good idea. This should cover most of the misuse I listed.
On the other hand, I have no preference on how this trope should be renamed.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
To answer that query, just going through the wick check myself and doing a cursory look about the correct use cases of fantastic features causing insecurity, I don't think there's much of a connective tissue to warrant a more specific trope than general Appearance Angst, ranging the gamut from "beast-man traits", having scales, horns, just generally "looking like a monster", etc. I wouldn't say there's a need for a more specific trope encompassing "angst over fantastic appearances", at least right now (there may be potential for more specific tropes that could be drafted later down the line, but not yet IMO).
Definitely up for just renaming this trope. But Your Wings Are Beautiful is better than Freakiness Shame, but I still think there's room for improvement, yeah. "One's Freaky, Another's Beauty" sounds like it might be construed as referring to a duo of characters ("Wunza freaky guy, the other's a beauty!")
(ninja'd)
Edited by number9robotic on Mar 23rd 2024 at 8:53:04 AM
Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
Shameful To One Beautiful To Another? A bit wordy but something to work with.
the Retromancer
How important for the appearance trait to be based on scifi/fantasy? If much, then examples with scars and reasonable mutations would have to go elsewhere.
Futurama S 3 E 9 The Cyber House Rules is probably a good reference.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Regarding Appearance Angst, would that cover mundane examples?
Anyway, I think Morgan's suggestion is better than mine (we'd custom title it to put a comma in the middle if we used it).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 24th 2024 at 12:46:19 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I'd rather make the requirements clearer with "Shameful to Self, Beautiful to Another".
Edited by SamCurt on Mar 24th 2024 at 10:48:27 AM
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
That's even better. Alternatively, we could go with "Oneself" instead of "Self".
So, now the only unresolved issue is whether there should be a standard for mundane deformities to be included in this trope.
The main question I would ask is: do you think major scars should count into this, or it needs to be rarer than that? (People feeling shameful about their scars already fall into Scars Are Ugly)
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
He/Him
I'd say that because Scars Are Ugly exists, we should exclude major scars.
But that's just my opinion
My troper wall
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
I agree.
Scars Are Ugly would be a subtrope, right? Wait, no, because we're keeping the definition as "Shameful to Oneself, Beautiful to Another".
So... does that mean we need a trope for "someone is ashamed of their deformity and everyone actually agrees with it?" I mean, it's a terrible aesop, but I've seen it every once in a while, and the closest trope I can think of is Red Right Hand.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Again, that would be lumped under Appearance Angst. People agreeing can contribute to said angst.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Ah, I missed that one. Okay, that's better than my suggestion.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
Well, two names can be crownered, which are similar: "Shameful to Self, Beautiful to Another" or "Shameful to Oneself, Beautiful to Another".
There's still the issue of whether mundane features should be covered by this; I wonder if we should limit cases that haven't already been covered by another Appearance Angst subtrope.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
If those are the only name possibilities left, then a crowner might not be needed.
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
the Retromancer
Why? Renaming a trope period would require a crowner.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Let's see if we're renaming.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Consensus was to rename Freakiness Shame, due the requirement that someone else has to find the shameful trait attractive not being made clear by the trope's name. What should the trope's new name be?
Note: This thread was proposed by SamCurt. Wick check here.
Introduction
According to the trope's description, Freakiness Shame is defined to be "A character (Known as "Character A" in this Wick Check) has some fantastical characteristic, such as wings, horns, or a tail, of which they are deeply ashamed. [...] Later, some other character (commonly, her love interest) (Known as "Character B" in this Wick Check) catches a glimpse of these and assures the character that their wings, or horns, or tail, or whatever, are not in fact ugly but very attractive."Concerns
were initially raised that a significant number of examples on the trope page were about mundane features that might not be very good looking (mostly Covered with Scars or similar), but in the ensuing discussion further concerns were raised
about the title strictly about Character A's shame about their features, without indicating it requires Character B to find the same features attractive.
This trope was originally launched as But Your Wings Are Beautiful but was changed by Fast Eddie's fiat, potentially due to the original title sounding like a line of dialogue; the original title has more emphasis on Character B but not Character A feeling ashamed. A wick check is thus initiated to determine the use patterns of this trope.
Wick Check
Wicks were sampled between 9:20pm to 9:30pm PDT of July 27, 2023. There's a total of 565 wicks, including those in redirects but excluding those listed in the folder below, as well as duplicated entries. There's a total of 551 wicks that might be checked. Since sqrt(551) ~ 23.47, checking 50 wicks. All wicks are put into a text file in Notepad++, and the randomization is based on the location of the tropes after they are sorted (with the namespaces). Because some wicks have multiple examples, there's a total of 53 examples checked. Because a significant number of examples have multiple types of misuse, in here, the numerator of the percentage calculation would be the number of examples containing that one misuse; as a result, the percentages won't add to 100%.For convenience, the characters' "freakiness" is marked in green, while indications that another character sees it attractive are marked in gold.
Tedd: [visibly spaced out] so... hot...
Both Mundane features and Lack of Character B's attractiveness statement (7)
Both Non-physical feature and Lack of Character B's Attractiveness Statement (2)
- Attraction to Outliers Index.
- Fanfic.Live A Hero MHA: Inko took Izuku in when no one else would, despite the risks of raising such an unstable child. She loves him dearly with all her heart, doing her best to accommodate his shaky emotional and mental state and giving him nothing but affection no matter how dangerous he gets. She is also supportive of his dream to become a Hero, despite his issues and Freakiness Shame. Izuku himself is astonished at her infinite patience for him. Reading the work description, the "Freakiness Shame" is probably not an external feature, so even if it has a stand-alone entry for this trope it'd still be considered misuse.
- Pantheon.Nicknames And Renames: (Hero & Zero Two) Portfolio: Zero Two: Black Widow, Masculine I, Oni Like, Doom Magnet, Part Human and Klexosaur, Sensitive About Her Non-Human Status, Lack of Empathy, Seeing Herself as a Monster, Desire to be Human, Regretting Hurting Her True Darling, Being More Cheerful
Pantheon Portfolio entry, so it's a sinkhole. The character-sheet entry is also wick-checked here and is considered correct use.Summary and Recommendations
The results of this wick check were far worse than what I had expected, with correct use constituting only 20.75% of the sampled examples. More alarmingly, one specific type of misuse—that of only listing Character A feeling ashamed but not anything about Character B saying A's "shameful" features attractive—comes up more frequently than the correct use, with 43.40% of sample examples containing this kind of misuse. I blame that on the trope name, which was changed from "But Your Wings Are Beautiful" by Fast Eddie's fiat in 2013, probably owing to the name being too dialogue-sounding. The trope name only discussed a "shame" without the other element of another person finding such "shameful" features attractive, which caused a large number of tropers to take it as an indication of the latter element is optional, even when it's not.As to the issue I raised in Trope Talk in the first place, a visible number of examples involve a character feeling ashamed about a mundane feature, only comes up at about 15% of the sampled examples. ZCE is less than 10%.
I suggest the following, none of them are mutually exclusive:
- The trope should be renamed. I have no suggestion in relation to what should it be, though— reverting to But Your Wings Are Beautiful is an option, but I don't think it's the best option.
- The boundaries of the trope need to be discussed, especially as to whether mundane features should be included in the trope definition. While the mundane-fantasy dichotomy is useful in many cases, I doubt it's important for this trope, since the main idea is acceptance.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.