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Misused: Opening A Can Of Clones

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To-do list:

  • Rename Opening a Can of Clones to No Permanence No Stakes, redefine as "The audience criticizes and/or loses interest in a story on the grounds that the purported stakes of the conflict are undercut by other story elements in ways that make the stakes appear less consequential (e.g. less severe and/or lasting) than intended", and index as YMMV.
    • Rewrite the description to match the revised definition, then move it to the new name and index as YMMV.
    • Clean up on-page examples.
    • Clean up wicks.

    Original post 
So, this trope has two different problems. First, Opening a Can of Clones is frequently misused for a character creating a bunch of clones of themselves or something similar, despite that not being close to the definition. Second, the actual trope is defined as objective despite describing an Audience Reaction — that being the audience no longer feeling there are actual stakes in a story due to the introduction of elements that can undo any consequences, such as clones, Time Travel, resurrection, or alternate universes.

Opening A Check Of Wicks results:

  • 18/50 (36%) described subjective judgements/audience reactions towards a work.
  • 23/50 (46%) took the "clones" part literally and described it as anything to do with a character having a lot of clones.
  • 9/50 (18%) were ZCEs.

Possible Solutions: This should be YMMV and renamed to something like "No Real Consequences Equals No Stakes" (clunky title, will try to come up with something better).

Wick check:

On this page, we will be doing a wick check for Opening a Can of Clones.

Why? Two reasons. First, Opening A Can Of Clones is frequently misused for a character creating a bunch of clones of themselves or something similar, despite that not being close to the definition. Second, the actual trope is defined as objective despite describing an Audience Reaction — that being the audience no longer feeling there are actual stakes in a story due to the introduction of elements that can undo any consequences, such as clones, Time Travel, resurrection, or alternate universes. As such, this should be YMMV and renamed to something like "No Real Consequences Equals No Stakes" (clunky title, will try to come up with something better).

Wicks checked: 50/50

    open/close all folders 

    Reads as Subjective Judgement (13/50) 
  1. Franchise.Metroid: Characters or creatures believed killed off in previous games commonly reappear as clones, robotic duplicates, X-Parasite doppelgangers, etc. (and in the case of Ridley, all of the above). This makes it almost impossible to truly believe that these characters are gone for good, and when some characters are revealed to survive (for example Kraid in Dread), there is a lot of speculation about whether it's the real character, a clone, or some other type of copy. There are even numerous theories that Samus herself is a clone, particularly following the events of Fusion.
  2. WebAnimation.Overly Sarcastic Productions: Though not mentioned by name, this is a major point of their Detail Diatribe on The Multiverse. It doesn't matter if a writer handles a time-travel or universe-altering plot well the first time; by introducing an in-canon Reset Button, the audience now knows that anything they're invested in can be undone whenever a later writer feels like it, which can be a major blow to their enjoyment of the franchise.
  3. Franchise Original Sin.Terminator: According to Word of God, the Terminator saga was always supposed to take place in a changeable timeline, and it was always supposed to climax with the heroes successfully stopping the birth of Skynet and rewriting history. Unfortunately, budget constraints forced James Cameron to save that spectacular climax for the sequel, with the original instead ending with a Stable Time Loop implying that John Connor's birth and the rise of Skynet were both inevitable. So when the heroes actually did seemingly stop Judgement Day, it made it look like the movies just had inconsistent rules regarding time travel. But it was easy to forgive that, partly because the heroes' victory at Cyberdyne made for a great Grand Finale, and partly because the idea of Kyle and Sarah being destined to conceive humanity's savior made for a great love story—even if those two plot points seemed to contradict each other. Many fans were unhappy when Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines claimed that Judgement Day really was inevitable all along, as not only was that idea not planned from the beginning, it also undid T2's ending. Terminator: Dark Fate also kept the idea of it being inevitable, but ignored all except the first two films. Skynet was never created, so the inevitable Robot War instead came in the form of a new artificial intelligence named Legion. Fans didn't like this twist, either, feeling that repeating the same Bad Future except with new characters didn't make the beloved ending to the second film seem any less pointless. Worse, the constant retconning as a result of the series' reliance on time-travel tropes has shattered almost any and all stakes the films used to have, as it becomes increasingly difficult to care about anything that happens in a story when there is no guarantee that any future plot points will be permanent.
  4. PlayingWith.Cessation Of Existence: Enforced: "If we can't let characters stay dead, we'll be Opening a Can of Clones. Or, worse, we could succumb to The Chris Carter Effect, what with the Big Bad's reincarnations. We need some way for characters to be Killed Off for Real."
  5. Quotes.Expendable Alternate Universe:
    The problem with these alternate universe/divergent timeline tropes that Nomura is obsessed with is that, unless you're a very clever writer [...], it's incredibly easy to make your characters feel like they're not special. It's incredibly easy to make them feel expendable. I think this fatal side effect of these tropes is the core reason why a lot of people hate this ending. For instance, Cloud Strife is no longer the Cloud Strife; he's just a Cloud Strife. I don't care about what happens to this dude because [the game] told me he's an alternate universe doppelganger. I don't care what happens to any of these people now.
  6. Unexpected Reactions to This Index: You've introduced Doppelgangers, and now dramatic scenes have no impact because there's a built-in Reset Button.
  7. YMMV.Original Sin: He's Just Hiding: Not everyone bought that Nick Fury is really dead, based on his use and abuse of Life Model Decoys in the past. These fans take "his" immunity to the secret bomb as evidence that it's not really him. Ultimately, this is proven correct.
  8. YMMV.Star Wars Rebels: The Season 4 episode "A World Between Worlds" is possibly the most divisive episode in the show if not the franchise. People either love the episode for resolving Ahsoka's ambiguous fate, bringing Palpatine in to the show, and expanding the franchise's lore. Detractors however feel that Ahsoka should've died in her fight against Vader, feeling that bringing her back through such a convoluted method turns her into a Creator's Pet. Detractors also feel that bringing time travel into the mythos will lead to the Can of Clones trope and will inevitably result in the franchise's lore rules being broken.
  9. ComicBook.Nick Fury: The LM Ds (Life Model Decoys) make his deaths less than believable.
  10. Quotes.One More Day:
    Stan's synopsis for the Green Goblin had a movie crew, on location, finding an Egyptian-like sarcophagus. Inside was an ancient, mythological demon, the Green Goblin. He naturally came to life. On my own, I changed Stan's mythological demon into a human villain...I rejected Stan's idea...A mythological demon made the whole Peter Parker/Spider-Man world a place where nothing is metaphysically impossible.
    Steve Ditko, co-creator of Spider-Man, (THE COMICS v12 #7 [2001] - "A Mini-History Part 1 -"The Green Goblin"), describing the origins of the Green Goblin and why magical concepts were antithetical to Spider-Man's story.
  11. Crying Wolf: On a similar note, see Opening a Can of Clones for when this situation extends to an author and their audience, where viewers become unable to take the work at face-value because of certain story decisions made by the writer.
  12. Quotes.Story Breaker Power:
    "[Force Healing] is a big plot hole because of the fact that it completely ruins death. There's no tension anymore. Death is a complete joke in this film. This person dies; comes back. This person dies; comes back. So, you do not give a shit when somebody dies! And not only that, but it completely ruins the series for the future. Like, you've got force ghosts that can do stuff [...], lightning strikes [...], and now we've got force healing [so] nobody can fucking die... I don't want to see episode X! I don't want to see XI; I don't want to see XII! ...They have to go away. They have to go back into the past."
    The Angry Joe Show on force healing in The Rise of Skywalker.

    Misuse — Takes the "Clones" Part Literally (23/50) 
  1. Fanfic.Coreline: Alternate Self: Explicitly called "Alternates" or variations of it (like "Walternate", for example), these are the many versions of a Fictional character that have appeared all over the CoreLine universe.
  2. VideoGame.Metal Gear Solid: Snake's brothers, Liquid and Solidus, are first introduced in this storyline. As a minor example, the Genome Soldiers share the same "soldier genes" that were harvested from Big Boss' remains. According to Liquid, this makes them all blood brothers.
  3. Fanfic.Atonement Worm: Several Noelle Clones are prominent characters, including Pandora And Defiant.
  4. Roleplay.Darwins Soldiers:
    • Averted. James Zanasiu has been seen in at least four different forms (regular, anti-matter, Furtopia regular, and AI) but they never interact, and so are easily distinguished.
    • On the other side of the coin, Rudyard Shelton has encountered all three of his doppelgängers (anti-matter, AI, and Keith Bailey but the problem of telling them apart never comes up since there are always superficial differences.
  5. Recap.Rick And Morty S 3 E 9 The AB Cs Of Beth: Ambiguous Clone Ending: Beth's choice at the end of the episode isn't disclosed: did she decide to stay, or did she accept Rick's offer to make a perfect clone of her while she went travelling? The Beth we see again at the end of the episode seems much more cheerful and involved with her children than usual, which could point to a "perfect mom" clone-Beth or a Beth finally at peace with herself and her choices. On top of that, even if she did accept Rick's offer, Beth would also be able to Kill and Replace the clone to return to her old life later on. Rick could very well make another clone in the future, so from this point onward, Beth could switch places with her clones an indeterminate number of times.
  6. Characters.PN 03: Schrödinger's Butterfly: Vanessa discovering a clone of herself in mission 9, discovering the Client is also a clone, and the Client saying memories can be faked calls into question just about everything in the game.
  7. Characters.Adventure Time Princess Bubblegum: What Measure Is a Non-Human?: Considers her subjects expendable, as she can make more. She has prevented Finn from sacrificing himself and allowed a candy subject to do so because of this specifically.
  8. Characters.Urbanus: (Nonkel Fillemon) He died in "De Buljanus-Dreiging" ("The Buljanus Threat"), but was cloned.
  9. Differently Dressed Duplicates: After all, when you're Opening a Can of Clones, clothes may not be duplicated with the extra bodies, or an error in the cloning process could be introduced to help the audience tell the two apart.
  10. Surprisingly Elite Cannon Fodder: * This is the entire premise of Star Wars: Battlefront II, where you play as the 501st Legion, which "has a history of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat."
  11. Webcomic.Darths And Droids: The comics and rants in Episode II note how the movies wasted the potential of having clones and shapeshifters. Later taken advantage of in Episode IV by making the original Han Solo a shapeshifter, allowing Jim's character to get away with impersonating him until Episode V, where, after capturing Jim's character, Boba Fett decides to cut him up and have a transplant of his flesh to restore his own shapeshifting ability.
  12. WesternAnimation.Detentionaire: Most of the teachers at A. Nigma High are clones, as hinted by some of them resembling famous historical figures.
  13. Characters.Monster Rancher Species: (Debuted in Monster Rancher 2) The Metalner that visits the ranch explains that a thousand years prior to the game, their race made clones of themselves and sealed them in Disc Stones, which they then left on our world.
  14. ComicBook.Elvis Shrugged: Along with the 1970s one of Elvis, we later see that the Mad Scientist has created several mini Elvis clones called "Elvii".
  15. PlayingWith.Disney Death: Double Subverted:
    • It turns out that it wasn't Walter who died, but a clone of him that was programmed to believe it was the original. Once he realizes what's going on, he creates a new, non-degenerated clone.
  16. Quotes.Only The Creator Does It Right:
    When 'Thanos Rising' was announced, I wrote: “I will buy it. Partly because I’m curious, partly because I like Jason Aaron’s writing, partly because it seems like the sort of thing that would break my internet silence after less than three months. But, let’s not kid ourselves: this is clearly the broken memories of one of the defective clones of Thanos. Sorry. That doesn’t mean it can’t be good. It just means that if you’re not Jim Starlin, you’re writing about a clone.” I stand by that today.
    Chad Nevett on Thanos Rising
  17. Recap.SCP Foundation SC Ps 2000 To 2499: (SCP-2000) It repopulates the world with clones.
  18. Characters.One Minute Melee Season One: (Dante vs. Ragna the Bloodeedge) The skill-set this Ragna has seems to indicate it's not the original Ragna. He's found by Dante surrounded by three defeated Hakumens, presumably clones as well. Judging from the green, red, and blue lights he absorbed from the defeated Hakumens, he got the copies by beating them.
  19. Characters.Brave New World Pokemon: (Antagonists) Due to how easily he dies, Professor Tarwntulas set up a cloning system whenever he is killed.
  20. Alike and Antithetical Adversaries: One extreme representation of this is to make the villains Not Even Human, rather being a horde of identical robots, insects or clones.
  21. Denser and Wackier: Lois & Clark begins as a sort of office comedy interspliced with Clark's super heroics. Though the main duo stay more or less grounded in domestic reality, their surroundings become more akin to the Silver Age comics, with goofball villains (including Shelley Long, Drew Carey, Sylvia from The Nanny, and culminating in the guy from Night Court sporting a giant latex head and calling himself Dr. Klaus Mensa), time travel, magic, and clones galore.
  22. Story Arc: The King of Fighters:
  23. ComicBook.Marvel A Fresh Start: Clones have always been a long-standing fixture in the Marvel universe but in these new storylines, cloning takes prominence as a plot point.
In Amazing Spider-Man it's been revealed that Kraven forced the High Evolutionary to clone him a large number of times in an attempt to raise a better heir. One of them took his Egomaniac Hunter ideals to the point of murdering all his "brothers" and ends up taking Kraven's place once he dies. Hickman's X-Men run has the mutants devise a way to resurrect their dead by cloning new bodies and uploading the latest backup of their minds into it. Tony Stark learns he really did die in Civil War II and that he's just a mental backup in a reconstructed body. This also applied to Rhodes, who he resurrected by the same means, and his parents, who Arno brought back in the same way when he found out. Natasha Romanoff is alive again after Secret Empire because the Red Room has similar clone backup protocols for all their agents. The telepath in charge of the process was bribed into using the heroic Black Widow's memories instead of one loyal to them.

    Other Misuse (2/50) 
  1. Memes.One Piece: Clone PieceExplanation (spoilers) Misuse for Epileptic Trees
  2. YMMV.A Song Of Ice And Fire: The Faceless Men; just look at the WMG page. This despite the fact that the only use of Actually a Doombot the series has so far pulled off was actually Melisandre's doing. This also seems to be based on an earlier understanding of Faceless Man powers that was jossed in A Dance With Dragons: The Faceless Men keep around faces taken off of corpses and use blood magic to put them on their own faces. While this doesn't necessarily rule out impersonation via glamour, chances are that if a Faceless Man impersonates someone, the person they are impersonating is dead. Despite being "objective", item is used on YMMV page as though it is YMMV. Also misuse for Epileptic Trees.

    Unclear (1/50) 
  1. AudienceAlienatingEnding.Video Games: Final Fantasy:

    ZCEs (12/50) 
  1. VisualNovel.Umineko When They Cry: Given all the Reality Warper and Your Mind Makes It Real-type tropes that are involved, this was kind of inevitable. The red text is supposed to defuse the problem a bit, although a lot of it simply hinges on your trust of Beatrice in general.
  2. Anime.The Big O: Commented out trope name and nothing else
  3. Manga.Battle Angel Alita: The AR series.
  4. YMMV.Bayonetta 3: Play the Game, Skip the Story: While it has some technical issues, on a gameplay front, Bayonetta 3 is regarded to be a great action game that improves upon many of the flaws in Bayonetta 1 and 2, while having a very satisfying and free flowing combat system, as well as some extra variety in the form of Viola. The story on the other hand, has seen a more contested response from fans and critics, with many finding aspects of it, such as the multiverse plot potentially Opening a Can of Clones, the Relationship Upgrade between Bayonetta and Luka, Bayonetta's death at the end, and Viola becoming the next Bayonetta, amongst other aspects, to be underdeveloped and/or unsatisfying.
  5. SanitySlippage.Comic Books: The Transformers (Marvel):
    • Happens to Shockwave in the UK comics, when he learns he dies in the future. Determined to prevent this, he finds Megatron and sets him on Galvatron (well... it's complicated). Then the two start working together. Shockwave, who didn't expect this, just snaps, and kills anyone who approaches him.
  6. ComicBook.The Clone Saga: The Spider-books in general are famous for this trope, but this is the story arc that kicked it into high gear. Peter later uncovers the original clone's scorched remains in the chimney; probably the intention was to throw doubt on Ben's identity and put forward the possibility of both Spider-Men being clones. By this point, though, there were already so many clones running around, the effect was lost and the whole subplot was discarded. Despite all the text, none of it makes clear which of the two uses of the trope it is referring to.
  7. Film.Two Thousand And One A Space Travesty: Trope name and nothing else
  8. Laconic.Infinity Abyss: Thanos gets his own Clone Saga.
  9. ComicBook.Astro City: Commented out trope name and nothing else
  10. Webcomic.Monster Of The Week: Who's the real Samantha?
  11. Red String of Fate: The protagonist (one of them anyway) accidentally discovers this during the events of Kiln People. At the end of the novel, he's dropped his job as a Private Detective and is advertising an agency to link people with their soulmates.
  12. Our Clones Are Identical: Why should anyone care about what happens to these clones?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 26th 2024 at 6:38:48 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#1: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:03:59 PM

To-do list:

  • Rename Opening a Can of Clones to No Permanence No Stakes, redefine as "The audience criticizes and/or loses interest in a story on the grounds that the purported stakes of the conflict are undercut by other story elements in ways that make the stakes appear less consequential (e.g. less severe and/or lasting) than intended", and index as YMMV.
    • Rewrite the description to match the revised definition, then move it to the new name and index as YMMV.
    • Clean up on-page examples.
    • Clean up wicks.

    Original post 
So, this trope has two different problems. First, Opening a Can of Clones is frequently misused for a character creating a bunch of clones of themselves or something similar, despite that not being close to the definition. Second, the actual trope is defined as objective despite describing an Audience Reaction — that being the audience no longer feeling there are actual stakes in a story due to the introduction of elements that can undo any consequences, such as clones, Time Travel, resurrection, or alternate universes.

Opening A Check Of Wicks results:

  • 18/50 (36%) described subjective judgements/audience reactions towards a work.
  • 23/50 (46%) took the "clones" part literally and described it as anything to do with a character having a lot of clones.
  • 9/50 (18%) were ZCEs.

Possible Solutions: This should be YMMV and renamed to something like "No Real Consequences Equals No Stakes" (clunky title, will try to come up with something better).

Wick check:

On this page, we will be doing a wick check for Opening a Can of Clones.

Why? Two reasons. First, Opening A Can Of Clones is frequently misused for a character creating a bunch of clones of themselves or something similar, despite that not being close to the definition. Second, the actual trope is defined as objective despite describing an Audience Reaction — that being the audience no longer feeling there are actual stakes in a story due to the introduction of elements that can undo any consequences, such as clones, Time Travel, resurrection, or alternate universes. As such, this should be YMMV and renamed to something like "No Real Consequences Equals No Stakes" (clunky title, will try to come up with something better).

Wicks checked: 50/50

    open/close all folders 

    Reads as Subjective Judgement (13/50) 
  1. Franchise.Metroid: Characters or creatures believed killed off in previous games commonly reappear as clones, robotic duplicates, X-Parasite doppelgangers, etc. (and in the case of Ridley, all of the above). This makes it almost impossible to truly believe that these characters are gone for good, and when some characters are revealed to survive (for example Kraid in Dread), there is a lot of speculation about whether it's the real character, a clone, or some other type of copy. There are even numerous theories that Samus herself is a clone, particularly following the events of Fusion.
  2. WebAnimation.Overly Sarcastic Productions: Though not mentioned by name, this is a major point of their Detail Diatribe on The Multiverse. It doesn't matter if a writer handles a time-travel or universe-altering plot well the first time; by introducing an in-canon Reset Button, the audience now knows that anything they're invested in can be undone whenever a later writer feels like it, which can be a major blow to their enjoyment of the franchise.
  3. Franchise Original Sin.Terminator: According to Word of God, the Terminator saga was always supposed to take place in a changeable timeline, and it was always supposed to climax with the heroes successfully stopping the birth of Skynet and rewriting history. Unfortunately, budget constraints forced James Cameron to save that spectacular climax for the sequel, with the original instead ending with a Stable Time Loop implying that John Connor's birth and the rise of Skynet were both inevitable. So when the heroes actually did seemingly stop Judgement Day, it made it look like the movies just had inconsistent rules regarding time travel. But it was easy to forgive that, partly because the heroes' victory at Cyberdyne made for a great Grand Finale, and partly because the idea of Kyle and Sarah being destined to conceive humanity's savior made for a great love story—even if those two plot points seemed to contradict each other. Many fans were unhappy when Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines claimed that Judgement Day really was inevitable all along, as not only was that idea not planned from the beginning, it also undid T2's ending. Terminator: Dark Fate also kept the idea of it being inevitable, but ignored all except the first two films. Skynet was never created, so the inevitable Robot War instead came in the form of a new artificial intelligence named Legion. Fans didn't like this twist, either, feeling that repeating the same Bad Future except with new characters didn't make the beloved ending to the second film seem any less pointless. Worse, the constant retconning as a result of the series' reliance on time-travel tropes has shattered almost any and all stakes the films used to have, as it becomes increasingly difficult to care about anything that happens in a story when there is no guarantee that any future plot points will be permanent.
  4. PlayingWith.Cessation Of Existence: Enforced: "If we can't let characters stay dead, we'll be Opening a Can of Clones. Or, worse, we could succumb to The Chris Carter Effect, what with the Big Bad's reincarnations. We need some way for characters to be Killed Off for Real."
  5. Quotes.Expendable Alternate Universe:
    The problem with these alternate universe/divergent timeline tropes that Nomura is obsessed with is that, unless you're a very clever writer [...], it's incredibly easy to make your characters feel like they're not special. It's incredibly easy to make them feel expendable. I think this fatal side effect of these tropes is the core reason why a lot of people hate this ending. For instance, Cloud Strife is no longer the Cloud Strife; he's just a Cloud Strife. I don't care about what happens to this dude because [the game] told me he's an alternate universe doppelganger. I don't care what happens to any of these people now.
  6. Unexpected Reactions to This Index: You've introduced Doppelgangers, and now dramatic scenes have no impact because there's a built-in Reset Button.
  7. YMMV.Original Sin: He's Just Hiding: Not everyone bought that Nick Fury is really dead, based on his use and abuse of Life Model Decoys in the past. These fans take "his" immunity to the secret bomb as evidence that it's not really him. Ultimately, this is proven correct.
  8. YMMV.Star Wars Rebels: The Season 4 episode "A World Between Worlds" is possibly the most divisive episode in the show if not the franchise. People either love the episode for resolving Ahsoka's ambiguous fate, bringing Palpatine in to the show, and expanding the franchise's lore. Detractors however feel that Ahsoka should've died in her fight against Vader, feeling that bringing her back through such a convoluted method turns her into a Creator's Pet. Detractors also feel that bringing time travel into the mythos will lead to the Can of Clones trope and will inevitably result in the franchise's lore rules being broken.
  9. ComicBook.Nick Fury: The LM Ds (Life Model Decoys) make his deaths less than believable.
  10. Quotes.One More Day:
    Stan's synopsis for the Green Goblin had a movie crew, on location, finding an Egyptian-like sarcophagus. Inside was an ancient, mythological demon, the Green Goblin. He naturally came to life. On my own, I changed Stan's mythological demon into a human villain...I rejected Stan's idea...A mythological demon made the whole Peter Parker/Spider-Man world a place where nothing is metaphysically impossible.
    Steve Ditko, co-creator of Spider-Man, (THE COMICS v12 #7 [2001] - "A Mini-History Part 1 -"The Green Goblin"), describing the origins of the Green Goblin and why magical concepts were antithetical to Spider-Man's story.
  11. Crying Wolf: On a similar note, see Opening a Can of Clones for when this situation extends to an author and their audience, where viewers become unable to take the work at face-value because of certain story decisions made by the writer.
  12. Quotes.Story Breaker Power:
    "[Force Healing] is a big plot hole because of the fact that it completely ruins death. There's no tension anymore. Death is a complete joke in this film. This person dies; comes back. This person dies; comes back. So, you do not give a shit when somebody dies! And not only that, but it completely ruins the series for the future. Like, you've got force ghosts that can do stuff [...], lightning strikes [...], and now we've got force healing [so] nobody can fucking die... I don't want to see episode X! I don't want to see XI; I don't want to see XII! ...They have to go away. They have to go back into the past."
    The Angry Joe Show on force healing in The Rise of Skywalker.

    Misuse — Takes the "Clones" Part Literally (23/50) 
  1. Fanfic.Coreline: Alternate Self: Explicitly called "Alternates" or variations of it (like "Walternate", for example), these are the many versions of a Fictional character that have appeared all over the CoreLine universe.
  2. VideoGame.Metal Gear Solid: Snake's brothers, Liquid and Solidus, are first introduced in this storyline. As a minor example, the Genome Soldiers share the same "soldier genes" that were harvested from Big Boss' remains. According to Liquid, this makes them all blood brothers.
  3. Fanfic.Atonement Worm: Several Noelle Clones are prominent characters, including Pandora And Defiant.
  4. Roleplay.Darwins Soldiers:
    • Averted. James Zanasiu has been seen in at least four different forms (regular, anti-matter, Furtopia regular, and AI) but they never interact, and so are easily distinguished.
    • On the other side of the coin, Rudyard Shelton has encountered all three of his doppelgängers (anti-matter, AI, and Keith Bailey but the problem of telling them apart never comes up since there are always superficial differences.
  5. Recap.Rick And Morty S 3 E 9 The AB Cs Of Beth: Ambiguous Clone Ending: Beth's choice at the end of the episode isn't disclosed: did she decide to stay, or did she accept Rick's offer to make a perfect clone of her while she went travelling? The Beth we see again at the end of the episode seems much more cheerful and involved with her children than usual, which could point to a "perfect mom" clone-Beth or a Beth finally at peace with herself and her choices. On top of that, even if she did accept Rick's offer, Beth would also be able to Kill and Replace the clone to return to her old life later on. Rick could very well make another clone in the future, so from this point onward, Beth could switch places with her clones an indeterminate number of times.
  6. Characters.PN 03: Schrödinger's Butterfly: Vanessa discovering a clone of herself in mission 9, discovering the Client is also a clone, and the Client saying memories can be faked calls into question just about everything in the game.
  7. Characters.Adventure Time Princess Bubblegum: What Measure Is a Non-Human?: Considers her subjects expendable, as she can make more. She has prevented Finn from sacrificing himself and allowed a candy subject to do so because of this specifically.
  8. Characters.Urbanus: (Nonkel Fillemon) He died in "De Buljanus-Dreiging" ("The Buljanus Threat"), but was cloned.
  9. Differently Dressed Duplicates: After all, when you're Opening a Can of Clones, clothes may not be duplicated with the extra bodies, or an error in the cloning process could be introduced to help the audience tell the two apart.
  10. Surprisingly Elite Cannon Fodder: * This is the entire premise of Star Wars: Battlefront II, where you play as the 501st Legion, which "has a history of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat."
  11. Webcomic.Darths And Droids: The comics and rants in Episode II note how the movies wasted the potential of having clones and shapeshifters. Later taken advantage of in Episode IV by making the original Han Solo a shapeshifter, allowing Jim's character to get away with impersonating him until Episode V, where, after capturing Jim's character, Boba Fett decides to cut him up and have a transplant of his flesh to restore his own shapeshifting ability.
  12. WesternAnimation.Detentionaire: Most of the teachers at A. Nigma High are clones, as hinted by some of them resembling famous historical figures.
  13. Characters.Monster Rancher Species: (Debuted in Monster Rancher 2) The Metalner that visits the ranch explains that a thousand years prior to the game, their race made clones of themselves and sealed them in Disc Stones, which they then left on our world.
  14. ComicBook.Elvis Shrugged: Along with the 1970s one of Elvis, we later see that the Mad Scientist has created several mini Elvis clones called "Elvii".
  15. PlayingWith.Disney Death: Double Subverted:
    • It turns out that it wasn't Walter who died, but a clone of him that was programmed to believe it was the original. Once he realizes what's going on, he creates a new, non-degenerated clone.
  16. Quotes.Only The Creator Does It Right:
    When 'Thanos Rising' was announced, I wrote: “I will buy it. Partly because I’m curious, partly because I like Jason Aaron’s writing, partly because it seems like the sort of thing that would break my internet silence after less than three months. But, let’s not kid ourselves: this is clearly the broken memories of one of the defective clones of Thanos. Sorry. That doesn’t mean it can’t be good. It just means that if you’re not Jim Starlin, you’re writing about a clone.” I stand by that today.
    Chad Nevett on Thanos Rising
  17. Recap.SCP Foundation SC Ps 2000 To 2499: (SCP-2000) It repopulates the world with clones.
  18. Characters.One Minute Melee Season One: (Dante vs. Ragna the Bloodeedge) The skill-set this Ragna has seems to indicate it's not the original Ragna. He's found by Dante surrounded by three defeated Hakumens, presumably clones as well. Judging from the green, red, and blue lights he absorbed from the defeated Hakumens, he got the copies by beating them.
  19. Characters.Brave New World Pokemon: (Antagonists) Due to how easily he dies, Professor Tarwntulas set up a cloning system whenever he is killed.
  20. Alike and Antithetical Adversaries: One extreme representation of this is to make the villains Not Even Human, rather being a horde of identical robots, insects or clones.
  21. Denser and Wackier: Lois & Clark begins as a sort of office comedy interspliced with Clark's super heroics. Though the main duo stay more or less grounded in domestic reality, their surroundings become more akin to the Silver Age comics, with goofball villains (including Shelley Long, Drew Carey, Sylvia from The Nanny, and culminating in the guy from Night Court sporting a giant latex head and calling himself Dr. Klaus Mensa), time travel, magic, and clones galore.
  22. Story Arc: The King of Fighters:
  23. ComicBook.Marvel A Fresh Start: Clones have always been a long-standing fixture in the Marvel universe but in these new storylines, cloning takes prominence as a plot point.
In Amazing Spider-Man it's been revealed that Kraven forced the High Evolutionary to clone him a large number of times in an attempt to raise a better heir. One of them took his Egomaniac Hunter ideals to the point of murdering all his "brothers" and ends up taking Kraven's place once he dies. Hickman's X-Men run has the mutants devise a way to resurrect their dead by cloning new bodies and uploading the latest backup of their minds into it. Tony Stark learns he really did die in Civil War II and that he's just a mental backup in a reconstructed body. This also applied to Rhodes, who he resurrected by the same means, and his parents, who Arno brought back in the same way when he found out. Natasha Romanoff is alive again after Secret Empire because the Red Room has similar clone backup protocols for all their agents. The telepath in charge of the process was bribed into using the heroic Black Widow's memories instead of one loyal to them.

    Other Misuse (2/50) 
  1. Memes.One Piece: Clone PieceExplanation (spoilers) Misuse for Epileptic Trees
  2. YMMV.A Song Of Ice And Fire: The Faceless Men; just look at the WMG page. This despite the fact that the only use of Actually a Doombot the series has so far pulled off was actually Melisandre's doing. This also seems to be based on an earlier understanding of Faceless Man powers that was jossed in A Dance With Dragons: The Faceless Men keep around faces taken off of corpses and use blood magic to put them on their own faces. While this doesn't necessarily rule out impersonation via glamour, chances are that if a Faceless Man impersonates someone, the person they are impersonating is dead. Despite being "objective", item is used on YMMV page as though it is YMMV. Also misuse for Epileptic Trees.

    Unclear (1/50) 
  1. AudienceAlienatingEnding.Video Games: Final Fantasy:

    ZCEs (12/50) 
  1. VisualNovel.Umineko When They Cry: Given all the Reality Warper and Your Mind Makes It Real-type tropes that are involved, this was kind of inevitable. The red text is supposed to defuse the problem a bit, although a lot of it simply hinges on your trust of Beatrice in general.
  2. Anime.The Big O: Commented out trope name and nothing else
  3. Manga.Battle Angel Alita: The AR series.
  4. YMMV.Bayonetta 3: Play the Game, Skip the Story: While it has some technical issues, on a gameplay front, Bayonetta 3 is regarded to be a great action game that improves upon many of the flaws in Bayonetta 1 and 2, while having a very satisfying and free flowing combat system, as well as some extra variety in the form of Viola. The story on the other hand, has seen a more contested response from fans and critics, with many finding aspects of it, such as the multiverse plot potentially Opening a Can of Clones, the Relationship Upgrade between Bayonetta and Luka, Bayonetta's death at the end, and Viola becoming the next Bayonetta, amongst other aspects, to be underdeveloped and/or unsatisfying.
  5. SanitySlippage.Comic Books: The Transformers (Marvel):
    • Happens to Shockwave in the UK comics, when he learns he dies in the future. Determined to prevent this, he finds Megatron and sets him on Galvatron (well... it's complicated). Then the two start working together. Shockwave, who didn't expect this, just snaps, and kills anyone who approaches him.
  6. ComicBook.The Clone Saga: The Spider-books in general are famous for this trope, but this is the story arc that kicked it into high gear. Peter later uncovers the original clone's scorched remains in the chimney; probably the intention was to throw doubt on Ben's identity and put forward the possibility of both Spider-Men being clones. By this point, though, there were already so many clones running around, the effect was lost and the whole subplot was discarded. Despite all the text, none of it makes clear which of the two uses of the trope it is referring to.
  7. Film.Two Thousand And One A Space Travesty: Trope name and nothing else
  8. Laconic.Infinity Abyss: Thanos gets his own Clone Saga.
  9. ComicBook.Astro City: Commented out trope name and nothing else
  10. Webcomic.Monster Of The Week: Who's the real Samantha?
  11. Red String of Fate: The protagonist (one of them anyway) accidentally discovers this during the events of Kiln People. At the end of the novel, he's dropped his job as a Private Detective and is advertising an agency to link people with their soulmates.
  12. Our Clones Are Identical: Why should anyone care about what happens to these clones?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 26th 2024 at 6:38:48 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#2: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:13:26 PM

Opening.

Agree this feels more like Audience Reaction, and should also be renamed since it's not about clones, which are just one of many examples of "audience can't trust drama in a work where Death Is Cheap".

This makes me ask, however, the difference from Like You Would Really Do It.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 17th 2024 at 7:15:10 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#4: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:17:15 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure this needs to be a thing. Like it's a reaction that exists, but do we need specific reactions for every possible issue with a work? Like You Would Really Do It seems fine.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#5: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:28:15 PM

[up] "do we need specific reactions for every possible issue with a work?"

Don't see why not. I'd rather argue if Like You Would Really Do It already sufficiently covers the issue this one is going for.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#6: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:30:46 PM

I feel like it could expand pretty easily if need be; I guess I just don't see much purpose in two audience reactions that boil down to "the audience doesn't believe in the stakes and consequences that the story tries to have".

That, or this one gets expanded to be more general. Not just about these specific circumstances, not just about character death. A general lack of belief in a story's stakes.

All that being said, how common of a reaction even is this?

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#7: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:39:44 PM

"two audience reactions"

Again, I'm saying if these boil to the same thing, it just means it's the same reaction and we can rid of Opening a Can of Clones. If it's all the different ways to the audience can't trust stakes, these can be described with Analysis/ page.

Or there's something I'm missing because I feel we're talking about different topics.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 17th 2024 at 7:40:07 PM

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WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#8: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:43:33 PM

Are we? We seem to be on the same page and simply having a miscommunication. I was responding to you asking "don't see why not", when I brought up whether or not we need both pages. Which implied that you were arguing in favor of keeping them separate. If not, something got lost.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 17th 2024 at 12:43:49 PM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#9: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:43:46 PM

I'm leaning toward merging with Like You Would Really Do It.

Edit: Tagged the page, and I figure if we merge with Like You Would Really Do It, we could disambiguate between that and the Our Clones Are Identical index due to misuse that takes the "clones" part literally (or we could do that if we rename instead).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 17th 2024 at 11:46:15 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#10: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:49:15 PM

I've raised "do we need specific reactions for every possible issue with a work" because I've considered that as you seeing them as separate reactions. If not then we're in agreement the pages don't describe specific recations (plural) and are the same.

[up] That disambig sounds fine to me.

Since I've thought about it, how does remaking the current page into Analysis.Like You Would Really Do It sound?

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 17th 2024 at 7:50:30 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#11: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:50:15 PM

The quotes page has a couple of good examples. It has also popped up in regards to the MCU and the blip or the resurrection of dead characters, and a common complaint for Dragon Ball (RIP Toriyama). And comics, particularly; Death Is Cheap especially seems to apply to big comics, and those have gotten that reaction as well.

Also, Like You Would Really Do It is about the audience not believing a character will die; this is about not believing a character’s death will be permanent, or - if it isn’t undone - asking why don’t they just use the time-travel/resurrection/other methods they clearly already established. It’s about how those things break narrative tension because even if the character dies, there now exist ways it can be undone. If you think that reaction is similar enough, then perhaps we can merge the two.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#12: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:50:59 PM

Ah, yeah I was more talking about how niche this one was, which is why I also raised the idea of an expansion if we wanted to keep it. Less suggesting that it was a different trope, more suggesting that it was too nitpicky as a standalone concept.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#13: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:54:42 PM

Name is terrible, I don't think we're going to encounter a lot of disagreement there.

I don't really agree with merging with Like You Would Really Do It, though. It seems to more closely parallel Too Bleak, Stopped Caring, but... sort of in the opposite direction? Instead of "everything sucks, why should we care," it's "they can just fix everything with time travel or an alternate universe, why should we care."

I will admit, though, that I've seen more instances of works reacting to this problem than I have seen actual instances of the problem in the fandom. Maybe that's more tropeworthy?

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Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#14: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:55:14 PM

If Like You Would Really Do It is specific to "audience don't trust a character can die because Plot Armor", then it does feel more narrow.

If it gets a wick check as well, we could entertain expanding that one while merging the other.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#15: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:55:21 PM

Like You Would Really Do It is when audiences know their death won't stick deflating the drama.

Opening a Can of Clones is supposedly different as it is about introducing ways for death not to stick or potential Reset Buttons that it deflates the drama by having so many methods to negate any changes/progress in the story.

If that's worth keeping [tup] making it YMMV with a more indicative name.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#16: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:59:06 PM

[up]Okay, the way you explain it does make the distinction look too thin to be worth keeping.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#17: Mar 17th 2024 at 9:59:21 PM

To be clear, I don't believe that it's currently covered. I just believe that they're sufficiently close enough that a merge is theoretically possible if something expands. At this exact moment, no, they aren't quite the same.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
CompletelyNormalGuy Am I a weirdo? from that rainy city where they throw fish (Oldest One in the Book)
Am I a weirdo?
#18: Mar 17th 2024 at 10:49:57 PM

I think there's value in keeping this. I think the specificity of "this particular plot element damaged the work's ability to have permanent consequences" makes it more useful to an aspiring writer to learn about than many other YMMV items.

I'd prefer renaming and moving to YMMV rather than merging into something else.

Bigotry will NEVER be welcome on TV Tropes.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#19: Mar 18th 2024 at 12:08:09 AM

Maybe it can be seen this way (related to Watsonian versus Doylist):

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 18th 2024 at 11:43:13 AM

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MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#20: Mar 18th 2024 at 12:36:09 AM

If we decide to keep this, I would suggest simplifying the OP's suggestion to No Consequences No Stakes, but I'm not sure it quite gets at the point. Reset Button Removes The Stakes? But that doesn't cover all the tropes mentioned [up]...

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#21: Mar 18th 2024 at 1:04:12 AM

I personally disagree with merging with Like You Would Really Do It, but I'd support a rename. Even ignoring the potential confusion with tropes about clones, the title implies that such a reaction would specifically stem from clones or other doubles as a story element. I'm also leaning towards making this YMMV, but that's not as firm a stance.

As for why I disagree... well, aside from the distinction brought up by Amon, Opening a Can of Clones can be applied to more than just character death. For example, the page cites how the use of disguise techniques in Naruto makes it hard to take apparent betrayals at face value.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Mar 18th 2024 at 1:13:26 AM

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#22: Mar 18th 2024 at 1:59:06 AM

Quickly finished up Sandbox.Like You Would Really Wick Check It as it is relevant. Not making conclusions based on it yet, and subjectivity was also difficult.

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jandn2014 Very Spooky from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
Very Spooky
#23: Mar 18th 2024 at 6:34:23 AM

I’d be fine with renaming this one (and moving it to YMMV, of course), and No Consequences No Stakes sounds good to me; both clear and concise.

Looking at [up], there seems to quite a few examples lacking sufficient context, but not many that are outright misuse, so I’m not convinced it needs TRS.

back lol
Coachpill Can shapeshift (probably) from Washington State, grew up on Long Island Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Can shapeshift (probably)
#24: Mar 18th 2024 at 7:17:22 AM

I'd likely be against merging anyway, but I'm wondering if this can be expanded to a supertrope about the involvement of several characters in a single person's grief or Everyman struggle, and how the audience is more focused on the outcome of that than the consequences, at least strictly speaking? Something like The Light Fatalisticnote , to communicate how characters only feel fatalistic to the audience when they're out of the spotlight?

Aside from Like You Would Really Do It, we have Angst? What Angst?, Vanilla Protagonist, and probably a couple of others. Can YMMV.Home Page tropes and Audience Reactions be part of the same supertrope?

Silver and gold, silver and gold
MathsAngelicVersion Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music from Gensokyo Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
#25: Mar 18th 2024 at 7:17:50 AM

I definitely think this needs to be YMMV (assuming we don't just merge it with Like You Would Really Do It, which I'm ambivalent about). Whether the writer fails to make you think anything in the story will stick is a judgement call. Not to mention that the page describes failing to establish "real stakes" as a bad thing.

[up] x5: That's not a bad distinction, but the emphasis on Character Death for Opening a Can of Clones should be removed because Opening a Can of Clones can be about any important plot point or consequence that audiences don't trust to last. (Also, in general I find it annoying when a definition of "stakes" amounts to "characters die and stay dead", and would like to see Like You Would Really Do It expanded to match Opening a Can of Clones.)

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Mar 18th 2024 at 3:20:19 PM

Trope Repair Shop: Opening a Can of Clones
23rd Apr '24 1:31:26 AM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to do the following:
  • Define as "The audience criticizes and/or loses interest in a story on the grounds that the purported stakes of the conflict are undercut by other story elements in ways that make the stakes appear less consequential (e.g. less severe and/or lasting) than intended."
  • Rename .
  • Make YMMV .

What should Opening A Can Of Clones' new name be?

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