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Misused: Esoteric Happy Ending

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To-do list:

  • Consensus was to rename Esoteric Happy Ending to Allegedly Optimistic Ending and expand its definition to cover all situations where the ending came off to audiences as less optimistic than intended, regardless of how optimistic it was meant to be. In addition to happy endings, bittersweet ones that came off as Downer Endings and other potential variations count now.
    • Rewrite the description to account for the definition being expanded. Sandbox.Allegedly Optimistic Ending can be used for this.
    • Clean up on-page examples, including subpages.
    • Clean up wicks.

    Original post 

Note: This thread was proposed by DoomTay.

Here is a wick check being performed for Esoteric Happy Ending

Why? This trope is for when an ending is meant to come across as happy, but doesn't usually due to problems that end up unaddressed. There is also some moderate conflation with Bittersweet Ending

Wick check:

    open/close all folders 

    Correct use per trope page's description (18/52) 
  • Awesome.Measure For Measure: This one is for Shakespeare himself. So, we have this well-known story that's been adapted several times already about a woman who agrees to a Scarpia Ultimatum to save her brother, but the villain kills him anyway, and the king's idea of justice is to force the villain to marry the heroine before executing him, but the heroine automatically falls in love with her rapist and her brother's killer for no other reason than that he's now her husband and successfully pleads for his life (even the adapters who reveal that the brother is actually alive never do so until after this), and this is treated as a happy ending. When Shakespeare adapts the story, he changes all of this; his Isabella may successfully suggest clemency for Angelo, but she refuses to sleep with him, and she certainly doesn't fall in love with him or marry him. Truly awesome adaptation, Will!
  • Funny.Retsufrash Slowbeef And Diabetus: Mike: Now they have found the happiness forever.
  • YMMV.Ben 10 Omniverse: The Incursean Story Arc is concluded in "The Frogs of War, Part 2" where it turns out all that happened was a Batman Gambit by Princess Attea all along to overthrow her father Emperor Milleus. By the end of the episode, she agrees to leave Earth with the Incursean Empire in exchange for the Plumbers keeping her daddy in custody, which is presented as an acceptable, if not entirely happy, ending. The thing is, in previous episodes, it had been clearly established that Attea was much worse than her father, being an Ax-Crazy Psychopathic Manchild motivated by Rape, Pillage, and Burn whereas her father was a more pragmatic Galactic Conqueror. In fact, she almost blew up Earth For the Evulz in her introduction episode (in contrast to her father, who only threatened to do so if she wasn't returned to him). Now, granted, she is sort of in a Dating Catwoman situation with Ben, so she will most likely avoid attacking Earth again, but that's little consolation to the rest of the galaxy.
  • YMMV.Childhoods End: The Overlords think it's a happy ending, the idea that the children of the final generation of humans Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence, but it still involves the extinction of humanity, and the "ascended" children are a bunch of feral psychic monsters that get assimilated into a Hive Mind. Not to mention the Overmind has done this to possibly hundreds of sentient races, and only the Overlords say this is a good thing. If a different science fiction work kept the same basic plot and cast the aliens as villains, most people wouldn't question their action as villainous.
  • YMMV.City Hall: Part of the reason why the movie received mixed reviews from the critics (see So Okay, It's Average below) - after Calhoun finds his boss, the mayor, whom he looked up to, was the one who made the call to Judge Stern to get the drug dealing son of mafia boss Paul Zapatti probation instead of jail, which ended up getting a detective and a six-year-old African-American boy killed, not to mention the ones killed to cover up that fact, he tells the mayor he has to resign in an appropriately somber scene - but at the end, Calhoun is running for city council, he's optimistic, and he flirts again with Cogan. It could have been a case of Life Goes On, but it seems jarring instead.
  • YMMV.Five Centimeters Per Second: The director claims that the ending is supposed to be uplifting, because Takaki smiles as he walks away in the last scene, indicating that he has moved on. But most viewers see it as a Downer Ending because he Did Not Get the Girl.
  • YMMV.Granblue Fantasy: A number of events have this.
    • Most notably is "Together In Song", where it's clear the village didn't learn anything as seen by Arte's paintings still being monsters by the time he was defeated.
    • The end of "What Makes The Sky Blue: 000". Lucillius’ plan is foiled, he and Belial get sucked into another dimension by Lucio where they can’t torment the crew anymore, Sandalphon and Lucifer concile and share their feelings with one another, Sariel, Israfel and Azreal are saved and all the Primarchs can live a normal life after ceding their roles to nature. Everyone except Lucifer, who is still dead and trapped, alone in the afterlife away from any contact with another person, if his conversation with Sandalphon is any indication. He reconciles with Sandalphon who initially wanted to stay with him but willed himself to stay with the crew, where he is needed, leaving Lucifer alone until Sandalphon dies, if he ever dies. His monologue after Sandalphon leaves him details how lonely he feels, finally being able to understand how Sandalphon felt. The entire scene is a huge Tear Jerker and Player Punch post realization where everyone gets a happy ending except him, a genuinely good person who has to spend presumably eternity alone with only a notion that Sandalphon might return to him one day. And unlike Sandalphon, his chances of ever coming back are slim since he no longer has a body to return to, it having been sucked into another dimension with Lucillius.
  • YMMV.Library War: The MBA was amended to disarm the MBA in the end, but the LDF also disarmed itself. The watered down MBA is still around, meaning censorship in Japan will continue unless another prime minister decides to take it down.
  • YMMV.Plague Inc: There's no denying the fact that beating "Santa's Little Helper" is done by brainwashing everyone into cheering up. Whether or not the happiness-free dystopia that existed prior made this welcome depends on who you ask.
  • YMMV.The Great Phantom Peril: At the end, Mr. Porter, who remains fooled by Faora's lies, requests to be sent into the Zone with his "wife". And instead of discouraging him and getting him help, Superman, Batman and Supergirl agree. The latter even says maybe it is the best for him.
  • YMMV.The Guided Fate Paradox: While it's great that Cinderella and the Prince realize how important they are to each other and their readers, it still doesn't change the fact that she'll still constantly suffer at the hands of her step family every time the story begins.
  • YMMV.The Maw: The game plays the ending off as Bittersweet: the parting of two unusual friends. In reality the Maw is now devouring entire planets and still growing. This implication is later confirmed in the Twisted Pixel universe as scientists in Comic Jumper have noticed solar systems disappearing with only a strange purple substance left behind. Of course, given Twisted Pixel's morbid sense of humour, this was all very much intentional.
  • YMMV.The Twilight Zone 2002: "The Executions Of Grady Finch" ends with the killer dying after being crushed underneath a statue. Great, except everybody is convinced he's innocent except the lawyer he confessed to, so now they'll go on a wild goose chase for the killer. And the victim's son who tried to shoot him for getting away with it never got any closure in hearing Grady finally confess and got arrested for attempted murder.
  • YMMV.Wonderful Everyday Down The Rabbit Hole: In the Wonderful Everyday end of Jabberwocky II Tomosane and Hasaki are living together in peace, yay! But that doesn't change the fact that Kimika and a massive number of people died jumping off the building under Takuji's orders.
    • In the Hill of Sunflowers ending Yuki is...somehow with Tomosane and Hasaki, though neither know for how long. This can be seen as either heartwarming or unsettling, as even Hasaki can see her now. aside from that the ending suffers from a lot of the same issue the Wonderful Everyday ending has.
    • And then there's End Sky II Implying none of this may have happened at all...
    • The Knockin' on Heaven's Door epilogue ends with Tomosane and Yuki becoming a couple. Only that it's unknown if this Yuki is Tomosane's split personality or the real Yuki, now a ghost. Either way, Tomosane clearly hasn't moved on from her death.
  • YMMV.Ys The Oath In Felghana: In the original Ys III: Wanderers from Ys, Count McGuire was a Karma Houdini even though he's partially responsible for Galbalan's resurrection (and a few other terrible actions of his own), and still gets to reign Felghana in the ending. All players have is a vague promise from him that he'll be a better person - are we supposed to rest assured upon hearing that? The Oath in Felghana Video Game Remake rectifies this by having him show a more sympathetic side and giving him a back-story that many of the atrocities done under his name weren't really intentional.
  • YMMV.Bloodstorm: Yeah, Razor destroys Cyberia and unites the other provinces...but the world is left without any technology, and there's no signs that he's actually going to repair and unite the world like Tremor would. Was his victory really a good thing in hindsight?
  • YMMV.Deracine: While all of the children at the boarding school are saved from the Evil Faerie (and you) and the game treats this as a happy and heartwarming ending, a lot of things are left unresolved as a result. Margareta was never released from her strange undeath, Rozsa was never saved from receiving a wound that won't heal, and the surrounding area is still plagued by evil faeries. The children never had the positive influence of the kind faerie in their life and now they will have no one to bail them out if they ever run into an evil faerie again, which is even likely since they also never learned of the evil faeries in the ending's timeline.
  • YMMV.Supernatural: The series ends with Dean dying on a hunt, while Sam goes on to get married, have a son named Dean, and eventually die at an old age, at which point the two reunite in heaven. This is treated as a happy ending, yet it plays out like Sam and Dean doing nothing for decades but wait around for Sam to die: all the audience is shown is Dean driving around heaven by himself and Sam raising his son, with no suggestion that the two have any other relationships or even interests during this time. This also comes off as implying that the show's theme of "family don't end in blood" was a lie and none of Sam and Dean's non-blood relationships meant anything to them.
    • The decision to kill off Dean at all also falls under this trope. After fighting for years to finally achieve the free will he wanted, and after Castiel sacrificed his life and sentenced himself to an eternity of damnation to keep him alive, giving him an entire speech about his intent to let him discover that new purpose, Dean dies before he gets a chance to do anything with it. He then ends up in Heaven, a place that he was previously shown to have decidedly mixed feelings about, right next door to his parents, with whom he has a difficult relationship. Some fans also felt that treating Dean's death and ascent to heaven as a happy ending sent the Accidental Aesop that "some people are too broken to ever find peace in life."
    • Despite the ending having Bobby explain how Jack fixed Heaven, people have taken issue with the fact he didn't do the same to the Earth. Not only did he do nothing to save Dean, but with all his power he could have easily cured all the monsters so that Sam and Dean wouldn't have needed to hunt anymore. Since he didn't, that means he has done nothing to make humanity safe and instead allows monsters to carry on like they did when Chuck was in charge. Plus characters like Garth won't go to Heaven to be reunited with the Winchesters and instead will end up in Purgatory where they will be hunted for eternity.

    In-universe (3/52) 
  • Literature.The Bazaar Of Bad Dreams: In-universe in “Premium Harmony” – sure, Ray’s wife and dog are dead, but now he can smoke as much as he wants. And that’s all he really wants.
  • Literature.The Last Unicorn: In-universe, the story of Nikos and the unicorn he saved by turning him human. The unicorn considers it a horrifying Fate Worse than Death.
  • WesternAnimation.Monsters Inc: Discussed In-Universe. Mike mentions that even though he and Sulley saved Boo, they destroyed the company, put their fellow employees out of a job, and doomed Monstropolis to a powerless fate. Or at least, they would have, if he didn't give Sulley the idea to switch to laugh power. Sort of a mix between this and possible misuse

    Potholes (5/52) 

    ZCE and Unclear use (8/52) 
  • Fanfic.Infinity Train Branching Paths: Screw This, I'm Outta Here:
    • In a positive twist of this, Ash does this gradually during Ash V: At first by staying out of the lab itself to avoid the toxicity and the blame game (which also has Parker and Goh blaming him for what happened). After Parker accuses him of being a black hole, gets on his case for helping another girl, and then attempts to assault said girl (Maple), he flat out quits working at the lab and goes back to traveling the world. Then again, things quickly go to hell in Vermillion when Lady Destiny shows up... Questionable use
  • NightmareFuel.Tiny Toon Adventures: "Duck Dodgers Jr." features the eponymous duck and Duck Dodgers attempting to stop Marvin the Martian using a giant-vacuum-cleaner-like machine to suck up planets and turn them into toy blocks for his daughter Marcia. The senior Dodgers' attempts to foil Marvin cause both of them to be sucked up by the machine, which then runs out of control, sucking up the entire universe, including the guy animating the episode. All that's left is Marcia and Jr. in a white void, but they have lots of new blocks to play with.
  • TearJerker.Wolf Guy Wolfen Crest: That damn Esoteric Happy Ending. It's sad... but it's oddly happy too.
  • VideoGame.The Way RPG Maker: Gainax Ending: All three of them. Some might qualify for Esoteric Happy Ending, but don't expect sunshine and rainbows in any event.
  • YMMV.How To Date A Magical Girl: The happy ending of this game is apparently staying with your girlfriend, but doing so means staying in the simulation and letting your physical body waste away. By contrast, choosing to stay with 54T0M1 aka Satomi (the mystery ending) actually brings out the best possible ending: she's touched by your love for her and decides to keep you sleeping in order to devote herself to you as well. While your time with her gets cut short when the medical team removes her AI chip from your brain, you make a full recovery and Satomi doesn't hijack your body. Not sure about this one
  • YMMV.The Day The Earth Stood Still 2008: Klaatu agrees to spare the Earth and humanity, but only after he generates an EMP so powerful that it stops all technology on Earth (e.g. electricity, gas, coal, etc.). Given how technologically-dependent our whole society has become, it's guaranteed mankind will plunge into a very dark age. While the entire world population won't be eliminated, around half of it is doomed to die to starvation and conflict, as modern agriculture and trade is heavily dependent on technology. Borders on "after the movie"
  • YMMV.Wolf Guy Wolfen Crest: Aoshika is in Alaska, hanging with the wolves and other wolf men. Inugami wakes up in a research lab, his body still maimed from his encounter with Haguro. Somehow, their spirits end together.
    • It's also (seemingly) implied that Inugami's sheer force of will is going to help him escape the research lab, and that it is his "destiny" to reunite with Aoshika.
    • All of this is not even getting to the fact that literally everyone who had ever been involved with Inugami, from Aoshika, to Ryuuko, to all of Inugami's student friends, to Aoshika's fellow teachers, end the manga worse off than they were before, with physical, mental, emotional and psychological scars that will follow them forever, with Ryuuko in particular having apparently gone murderously insane. Only Aoshika has any chance at happiness, and that's assuming Inugami reaches her. First two seem questionable, third very much fits
  • Mooks.Literature: "Mercenary Song", a poem by Hungarian author Gyorgy Faludi, tells the everyday lives of mooks from their perspective. It involves the titular mercenaries proudly bragging about every single atrocity they committed, including breaking into people's houses, eating all their food, raping their wives, selling their daughter, and clubbing them to death if they don't say 'thank you', killing their own parents, cutting down all the trees, poisoning all the wells, just because they enjoy it, and specifically stating that they serve whoever pays them the most, quite possibly making them even more evil than their employer. The poem ends with them growing old and senile, living as beggars for the rest of their lives, barely surviving and only thanks to the mercy and goodwill of the very same people they loved to abuse so much. Sounds more like a karmic end. Are we sure this is meant to be happy?
  • YMMV.Trucks: Inverted. The short story ends with the narrator thinking to himself about the Fridge Horror of his situation—now that the trucks have forced humans to refuel them, they can also force humans to make more trucks and help them take over the world. But the story ends before we find out if that actually happens.

    After the work (2/52) 
  • YMMV.Ferris Buellers Day Off: Cameron is last seen resolving to have it out with his domineering and emotionally distant father for the first time in his life after accidentally destroying the latter's priceless Ferrari. This moment marks the final step in his Character Development, but it doesn't change the fact that the Ferrari is beyond saving, and the elder Frye, who prioritizes his material wealth (especially the Ferrari) over everyone and everything else, will be home shortly. And if Cameron was as deathly afraid of his father as he said he was before, one can safely say that his father has given him damn good reason to be. So, despite his newfound strength and confidence, the ensuing confrontation probably didn't go over very well. Seems to be more about what happens after the movie
  • YMMV.The Grinning Snake: While Konoka does have some inkling of what she's sacrificed in the name of revenge, it's quite likely that she'll end up regretting it and having to live with what she's done. Post-work speculation

    Wrong trope (3/52) 
  • YMMV.OKKO Lets Be Heroes S 1 E 33 The Power Is Yours: Not that the ending is meant to be super happy, but the Planeteer Alert worked far better in the nineties when there seemed the possibility of stopping climate change, as opposed to now where consensus is that climate change is irreversible and the best we can do is adapt and mitigate the effects. Doesn't the first sentence sort of admit this doesn't fit?
  • YMMV.The Pirate Queen: Yeah, Ireland's under English control now, the Gaelic way of life is about to be destroyed, and the power of the chieftains has been broken, but hey! Grace and Tiernan are married, and they hope that Ireland will "one day" be free. Sounds more like Only the Leads Get a Happy Ending
  • YMMV.The Red Shoes: OK, so Karen has found peace and joy at the end. But she has to endure ridiculous trials and die first, all over a moment of envy for a pretty pair of shoes? It's hard to overlook the Values Dissonance to see what would have made Andersen (and his audience) consider this a happy story. Does it count if Values Dissonance is at play?

    Conflated with Bittersweet Ending (9/52) 
  • BittersweetEnding.Live Action Films: 50 First Dates. Henry does get the girl, and the two sail off to Alaska, married and soon to be parents, but Lucy never does regain her short-term memory, and has to make do with receiving a video recap of everything that has happened since the accident when she wakes up each morning. It's an Esoteric Happy Ending. So is it bittersweet or esoteric?
  • YMMV.Star Vs The Forces Of Evil S 4 E 37 Cleaved: Of a sort. Star manages to destroy magic, stop Mina, save Tom, get together with Marco, and unite Earth and Mewni into one amalgam dimension. Happy ending, right? Not quite. What Star did ultimately killed all the inhabitants of the Magic Dimension as well as any being dependent on magic to survive (Omnitraxus and Rhombulus's lifeless bodies being shown, the deaths of the millhorses being shown in detail, and Hekapoo, Reynaldo, and Glossaryck are all implied to have died in the process). The two dimensions may be united, but it's caused a large amount of Culture Shock for both Earth and Mewni, the humans shown reacting in fear to the other dimensional beings, and the people of Mewni like Rich Pigeon adapting poorly to Earth elements. Mina, meanwhile, is both alive and still out there. As she herself declares, so long as there are people with similar ideas to hers, she will never really lose. Echo Creek is still in a panic from the resulting backlash of the Magic Dimension's destruction, the people of Mewni are in disarray from Mina's assault, and magic is ultimately gone for good. Also, there are those like Toffee who will never accept peace with the Mewmans and now have the perfect opportunity to get their revenge (this includes Toffee's ruler Seth, an ageless immortal who is heavily implied to have been the Greater-Scope Villain and unless Moon killed him with the Darkest spell, is still around, and his species are only vulnerable to magic and otherwise nigh-impossible to kill). While the series tries to end on a happy note, it gets marred by all the problems it created in the process, made even worse thanks to Fridge Horror. Similar things are brought up as a Bittersweet Ending under Recap.Star Vs The Forces Of Evil S 4 E 37 Cleaved
  • TearJerker.Fire Emblem Three Houses: Even if Claude survives this route his story still ends on on a somber note: He does say he has ordered his remaining forces to stand down and work with Edelgard, But that's not entirely seen. His classmates may have died on Gronder Field. His closest friend, Hilda, can die (there was a programmed ending for her on Crimson Flower, but it was removed). One of the few Alliance lords he trusted, Judith, died trying to protect him. So while he may be escaping to Almyra with his life, he is doing so after unintentionally leaving his friends and comerades behind. And while he parts with Edelgard and Byleth on amicable terms, you may then remember that Claude has been described as hiding his true emotions behind a smile. Hopefully he was actually genuine here. Sounds more bittersweet, albeit more bitter than sweet
  • YMMV.Black Christmas 2019: In the end, it's unlikely that anyone would believe what really happened to the sorority sisters. Not only do the police and school faculty have an established pattern of not believing women, explaining all the nonsensical black magic that led to the deaths of a bunch of male students would likely be a problem, not to mention the fact that there were probably some innocents burned to death. The sudden change in Riley's expression from triumphant to dismayed in the last second of the film seems to convey that she's just realized how much shit she's still in. The police and possible innocents bits were also brought up under Bittersweet Ending
  • YMMV.Robo Cop 3: Along with Inferred Holocaust mentioned below. Child Prodigy Nikko had helped RoboCop and the resistance defeat McDaggett and the Rehabs, but her parents were killed trying to flee from OCP camps at the beginning of the film, thus she's now an orphan. Sounds more bittersweet
  • YMMV.The Haunting Of Hill House: Hill House in a sense wins and continues to exist after it has collected so many souls to keep in its grounds and now has taken Hugh Crain alongside Nell and Olivia. And yet we're suppose to be okay that Steve cannot breathe a word of this? While the Crains have reunited and are a family again by the end of it, the House still lingers within the forests, waiting for more victims to take. Poor Nell also presumably has to spend eternity without her husband or her beloved siblings. Partially mentioned under Bittersweet Ending
  • YMMV.The Proud Family: "The Legend of Johnny Lovely". An actual boy named Johnny Lovely is suspended from school after dancing with Penny. She then leads a wild goose chase in search of him that ends at the intersection of Johnny Avenue and Lovely Lane. Penny then concludes that Johnny is just a legend and that he may be out there somewhere.
  • YMMV.Turovero The Celestial Tower: The four heroes have been Dead All Along, but, after finally accepting their deaths and overcoming most of their issues, they're able to ascend to Heaven. Except the Dark One, who will only be able to join them once they, too, have overcome their inner demons. This has also been put under Bittersweet Ending on the main page
  • YMMV.Genma Wars: The series ends on a supposedly uplifting note with the Genma being wiped out and mankind left to eventually rebuild itself according to the narrator. With that said however, the twins have utterly failed to prevent modern society's downfall and prevent their timeline from coming to place, not to mention most named characters in the show have been killed. Even the Big Bad's survival is ambiguous at really best.

    Non-tropes, like a wick in an index page (3/52) 

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 10th 2024 at 11:51:28 AM

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#26: Jan 22nd 2024 at 2:53:28 PM

That doesn't sound like it would actually fit? If there is supposed to be a lot of —- by your own context — intentional sadness added next to happiness, that sounds like a very purposeful sign that it's not supposed to be purely "optimistic" to begin with.

Thanks for playing King's Quest V!
jandn2014 Very Spooky from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
Very Spooky
#27: Jan 22nd 2024 at 3:03:04 PM

I'd argue that Bittersweet Endings can still count in some cases. If an ending is intended to be "somewhat sad, but ultimately optimistic" but Fridge Horror renders it an outright Downer Ending in the audience's eyes, then I can see how Esoteric Happy Ending could apply. That's not to say all of the examples in the wick check's Bittersweet Ending folder are valid, but I don't think it's fully exclusive.

back lol
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#28: Jan 22nd 2024 at 3:19:20 PM

Tbh I think trying to determine what counts as too bitter for a bitter sweet ending is kinda pointless. Since that's a level of subjective that I don't think you can actually measure

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#29: Jan 22nd 2024 at 3:44:44 PM

Yeah, the case example of [up][up] makes me have to say "Are you meaning to tell me that a bittersweet ending is bitter? Yeah, that's the point." I do remember in the past clearing examples of Esoteric Happy Ending based on being purposefully oblique about the "bitter" side of a bittersweet ending just to reel it back in as if it's highlighting something insidious about the author's intent and how "it's not actually happy at all! Checkmate." Again, that has nothing to do with the trope itself as far as I can tell, but rather their misinterpretation of it and the work.

Edited by number9robotic on Jan 22nd 2024 at 3:47:29 AM

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MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#30: Jan 22nd 2024 at 6:29:33 PM

No, the point is that some bittersweet endings are meant to be happy, but with a price to be paid, but that price can end up unintentionally killing the intended happiness. For example, in the anime DARLING in the FRANXX, it is supposed to be a bittersweet ending because the villains are defeated and humanity thrives, but at the cost of the heroes sacrificing themselves… except the Big Bad and The Dragon survived, and while they lost their army, there is nothing that suggests they can’t just start their scheme all over again, this time without Hiro and Zero Two to stop them. Or in the Domestic Girlfriend example, the ending was said by the author to be a compromise in which both girls got a happy ending in exchange for sacrificing something, but in practice Rui loses the love of her life and has to raise the child he left her all on her own while Hina loses her job, cannot have kids, and ends up with a flaky jackass of a husband. So what was intended as bittersweet but happy instead screws over both girls in different ways.

There is a BIG difference between a bittersweet end and a downer end, and acting like a bittersweet ending can’t be considered a happy one is unnecessarily black-and-white; there are varying degrees of bitterness and sweetness.

Edited by MasterN on Jan 22nd 2024 at 6:30:52 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
number9robotic (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#31: Jan 22nd 2024 at 6:37:05 PM

[up] Those still sound like straightforward Bittersweet Endings, or potentially incorrectly-labelled Downer Endings to me? It doesn't sound like there's anyone hiding the dark implications of them — I think if they are merely done in a way that audiences aren't receptive to how they were done, that would be something like Audience-Alienating Ending depending on how harsh the reaction tanked the overall consensus to the work.

Edited by number9robotic on Jan 22nd 2024 at 6:43:47 AM

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MathsAngelicVersion Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music from Gensokyo Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
#32: Jan 22nd 2024 at 10:37:35 PM

I think Domestic Girlfriend still counts because not only were the sacrifices too great, but the "happy" parts of the ending are themselves bad: Rui being stuck raising a child on her own is not a happy ending, and Hina getting the guy is not a happy ending because we now know he's unreliable.

ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#33: Jan 23rd 2024 at 12:22:47 AM

I think there are a couple of types here:

Type A. Endings that are happy, except for fridge logic. The danger for misuse here is that inspired by sites like cracked, a lot of speculation can occur about what happens after.

Type B. Endings that is meant to be happy, but land wrong. Where as type A is about logic, this is more about feeling. The character may be happy, but it comes across as an informed attribute. This might result from an attempt to avoid a perfect ending, as well as the author subverted expectations poorly.

Since Esoteric Happy Ending has happy ending in the title, when the author aims for bitter sweet and hits downer, that doesn't count.

I think the difficulty with Domestic Girlfriend is determining if it is supposed to be a less than perfect happy ending or a bitter sweet ending. The author says that she wanted two characters to have a happy ending with sacrifice. Isn't that bittersweet?

Most love triangles aren't resolved with a happy end for everyone, so the author usually tries to make the loser unsympathetic or go with a bittersweet ending.

Edited by ry4n on Jan 23rd 2024 at 1:27:00 AM

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#34: Jan 23rd 2024 at 1:08:23 AM

A. That sounds like the correct use to me. The ending is unambigiously positive, but something is missing or there is a potential issue for the future of the setting. YMMV allows interpretations.

B. It's just complaining. If audience disagree that main characters are happy, then it's a stretched Alternative Character Interpretation.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#35: Jan 23rd 2024 at 1:54:04 AM

A can be correct use, but there is a genre of listicle of "movies that have sadder endings than you thought." These often involve warping the ending, assuming psychological trauma that wasn't hinted at in the film, and assuming the worst possible scenario is the most plausible one. The fact that everyone thought some of these movies had happy endings till the listicle came along suggests that it is the sad ending that is esoteric.

As far as B, I think that sometimes it could be due to bad writing and other times due to complaining. This is more theoretical, but if the audience is led to expect a romantic happy ending, but instead get a self actualization happy ending, then that is a failure of the writing.

Is Only the Leads get Happy Endings exclusive with this trope, because that makes a difference.

Edited by ry4n on Jan 23rd 2024 at 2:07:01 AM

MathsAngelicVersion Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music from Gensokyo Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ambassador of Eurogames and Touhou Music
#36: Jan 23rd 2024 at 5:08:11 AM

Isn't type A covered by Inferred Holocaust?

I think type B could be expanded to cover Bittersweet Endings where the "sweet" part fails to actually be sweet, which seems to be the case for Domestic Girlfriend.

Type B examples can lead to complaining and discussion about bad writing, but I still think it's interesting enough that we shouldn't just get rid of the audience reaction. Sometimes, an ending coming off as sadder than intended does little to nothing to sour people on the story (e.g. the remaining threats make good fanfic fodder, a "Did Not Get the Girl story where the protagonist moves on" can still work as a "tragic" story about a doomed relationship if you still want them to get together, and so on)

Only the Leads Get a Happy Ending is listed as a cause of Esoteric Happy Ending (on Inferred Holocaust), so they don't seem exclusive to each other.

Edited by MathsAngelicVersion on Jan 23rd 2024 at 3:53:01 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#37: Jan 23rd 2024 at 7:37:25 AM

[up]I think what you say makes sense; when the “sweet” part specifically is invalidated by the implications, that is a “bittersweet” ending that counts because it fails to be sweet.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#38: Jan 23rd 2024 at 7:48:24 AM

Disambiguating between Inferred Holocaust and Bittersweet Ending is also an option. Maybe not the best one, but possible.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#39: Jan 23rd 2024 at 8:21:41 AM

[up][up][up]I think Inferred Holocaust is more of a subtrope of Type A.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#40: Jan 23rd 2024 at 8:27:21 AM

[tdown]Disambiguating. There's an audience reaction here. Still voting for doing nothing but a cleanup.

I still don't see what's wrong with listing Bittersweet Endings if they come off as Downer Endings. The spirit of the reaction still applies.

Oissu!
ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#41: Jan 23rd 2024 at 9:09:52 AM

Inferred Holocaust covers examples that result in a really bad post ending. I think there should be a difference between audiences that find an ending sad while they are reading/watching it, and an interpretation that relies on fridge logic or analysis beyond fridge logic. Like saying that Beauty and the Beast has a downer ending because the French Revolution is coming is not the same as saying it has a downer ending because Belle deserves better.

I think that the best example of an unintended downer ending is the Last Battle by CS Lewis. The main thing that bothers people is Susan's ending, which is actually a lack of an ending. CS Lewis didn't see Susan's situation as hopeless, but as an oversight he didn't communicate that to his readers.

A lot of the examples of literature involve the woman ending up a less than ideal husband. I am not sure if all these should count, because they still may be the best outcome considering the premise of the story (see 1,001 Nights).

I think that the advantages of cutting out bittersweet endings that aren't sweet enough is that the distinction is clearer.

Edited by ry4n on Jan 23rd 2024 at 9:16:28 AM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#42: Jan 23rd 2024 at 11:00:44 AM

You also have to consider cases of Values Dissonance on the part of the author: to use [up]these examples, Lewis was writing a very explicitly Christian body of fiction in which Susan's situation is meant to be becoming distant from the Christian faith as an adult. (Remember that Aslan In-Universe is supposed to be literally Jesus, not merely an allegory.) And the Framing Device of Arabian Nights is in a very monarchical and patriarchal culture where Scheherazade telling the Shah what to go do with himself just isn't done.

ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#43: Jan 23rd 2024 at 1:34:15 PM

Both points correct, but I think that the Last Battle is an esoteric happy ending and the framing device of Arabian Nights is a happy ending, although not a perfect one. If Scheherazade had a choice she wouldn't have married the Shah in the first place. She did however solve the only problem she had(as far as I know, I haven't actually read the story).

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Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#44: Jan 23rd 2024 at 1:41:21 PM

It's an audience reaction for a reason, though. I don't think it makes sense to discuss specific examples right now; if people think a certain way, we can't logic the example away.

On the Bittersweet Ending thing, I'm kinda torn. I can see it working in specific situations, I guess.

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#45: Jan 24th 2024 at 3:32:03 AM

I think a lot of the "this movie is sadder than you think" examples are fridge horror, but some are just presuming that people didn't notice that the movie was sad. The hero died in this movie, but it is darker because he has kids. Or, the hero defeated the villain, but not before a lot of extras died.

Also, some ignore the importance of the decision of the storyteller to end a story at a certain point. Take Braveheart. If it ended with Wallace's death, then it would be a downer ending. However it ends with the Battle of Bannockburn. If it with Wallace's capture, it would have also been more of a downer ending than ending with his death, because his execution is a moral victory for him, a heroic sacrifice and allows him to be reunited with his love.

Contrast the ending of Captain America, which although it shows the defeat of the villain and the end of the war, it ends with Rogers being mourned. Even when it is revealed that he survived, it is still sad because he never got his dance and his friends are dead.

number9robotic (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#46: Jan 25th 2024 at 10:11:20 AM

I'm still holding my opinion that most cases of going "this bittersweet ending with cynical undertones, but an allegedly happy overtone, is actually very cynical and bad when you think about it" is misused Fridge Horror that misses the point of the work at best, blatant Moving the Goalposts to complain at worst. If a work is expected to have a degree of optimism that the audience still finds too upsetting to accept, but the work itself makes no compunctions to the idea of it being upsetting to begin with... yeah, that being a "problem" to me sounds far too narrow to really include and enable as a "proper" use case for this trope. Any in-between fringe cases can be resolved through cleanup, no big rename required.

Edited by number9robotic on Jan 25th 2024 at 11:01:34 AM

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#47: Jan 25th 2024 at 1:53:20 PM

The article on Bittersweet Endings says that it is about how the ending feels. If we apply that to Happy Endings and Downer Endings then that would exclude Fridge Horror Endings and Implied Apocalypses. Which is good, because those are already covered by their respective tropes.

So, yeah I agree with number9robotic.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#48: Jan 25th 2024 at 2:05:10 PM

There are different degrees of bittersweetnees; it’s not all one thing. A bittersweet ending can be “The Hero defeats the Big Bad and saves the world and lives happily, but lost the mentor in the process, and the final scene is the mentor’s funeral showing that, while the mentor being dead is sad, the hero will forever remember them and carry on their legacy”- sweet with a hint of bitterness. It can also be “The Hero defeats the Big Bad and saves the world but loses all his friends, family, and love interest in the process, and dies in a Heroic Sacrifice”- more in the middle. And it can also be a "Ray of Hope" Ending- “The Bad Guy Wins and kills all the heroes, except a few have survived and will continue the fight against them, and one of them reveals the hero has left behind a potential means for them to win”- bitter, but with a hint of sweetness.

And because there are different degrees of this, it is entirely possible for an intended “sweet with a hint of bitter” ending to accidentally become a straight-up Downer Ending. Or for an ending intended to be more in the middle to have the bitter part contain unintended implications that render the sweet part actually bitter as well. Or even for the Ray of Hope end, which is intended to leave the audience feeling optimistic at the very conclusion, to fail to do so because of implications- say, the means by which the survivors can one day beat the villain are impossible within the context and in-universe rules of the story.

In short, bittersweet ending =/= the audience was intended to feel crushed. Rather than go with blanket statements like that, I feel that instead we should examine how the ending is portrayed through the use of music, lighting, dialogue, and such, to determine if the ending was supposed to be overall happy.

For a specific example of the half-and-half thing:

  • Koizora ends with Hiro succumbing to his cancer and dies, causing Mika to suffer and once again try to kill herself. She's stopped by her friends who show her Hiro's diary notes, which gives Mika the courage to live on and she learns that she is pregnant with Hiro's child. But the questionable happiness comes from the fact that Mika is not properly established as having a stable home life, job and her emotional instability, which has caused her to attempt suicide twice over the course of the series, is also a big issue. It makes one wonder whether she would be able to take care of the child, especially on her own.

So it ends with the heroine’s boyfriend dying of cancer (the bitter part), but her learning she is pregnant with his child and having the strength to keep living on (the sweet part). It’s an Esoteric Happy Ending NOT because the love interest died, but because Mika was extensively established as being mentally troubled and doesn’t have a stable home life or job, making it seem like she is simply unfit to care for a child. The sweet part, specifically, is thus undermined by the implications, rendering it a Downer Ending. I think this can still work with bittersweet endings if we specify that examples must explain how the sweet part of the bittersweet ending is undermined.

Edited by MasterN on Jan 25th 2024 at 2:40:49 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#49: Jan 25th 2024 at 4:38:56 PM

I agree that the trope should be able to be applied to bittersweet endings if it's explained how the intended sweetness is undermined.

Oissu!
ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#50: Jan 25th 2024 at 11:10:13 PM

One option would be two tropes. Another is a rename to informed happiness, similar to informed attribute. Because I think this is usually when the author doesn't show the happiness convincingly, or at least doesn't convince part of the audience. Or maybe this counts as having a major problem unsolved. Koizora seems like a Ray of Hope ending, but if Mika's problems aren't just not having a reason to live after losing Hiro, then a baby won't solve those problems.

Edited by ry4n on Jan 26th 2024 at 12:14:32 PM

Trope Repair Shop: Esoteric Happy Ending
5th Apr '24 9:16:48 PM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to expand Esoteric Happy Ending's definition to cover all situations where the ending came off to audiences as less optimistic than intended, regardless of how optimistic it was meant to be. So, not just "happy" endings, but also bittersweet ones that came off as Downer Endings and other potential variations, as well as rename it to Allegedly Happy Ending. However, there have been concerns that the name that was decided on does not fit the expanded definition, and that the runner up, Allegedly Optimistic Ending, would be more fitting. Should the name be changed from Allegedly Happy Ending to Allegedly Optimistic Ending?

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