Character Perception Evolution cleanup and maintenance

I agree, JD was always seen as deeply flawed especially in relationships, it's the foundation of his character. I myself disliked how he was meant to subvert masculinity, yet the show took plenty of pot-shots at how unmasculine he was.

I don't know. There might be a case to be made for him qualifying, and there's precedent for fictionalized versions of real people falling under this trope. Besides, I'm pretty sure a single performance can't qualify for Condemned by History even if Benedict Cumberbatch's take on Turing was universally disliked now (which I don't think it is).

Any comments on this?

Alan Turing in The Imitation Game is probably more of a case of Broken Base (there is already an entry for it) or at most Values Dissonance, considering that in the 10 years since the movie has been made, attitudes towards how gay protagonists should/could been portrayed has already changed widely (and even at the time the movie was already divisive on that regard). The But Not Too Gay and "perfect victim" tropes are already noted in the YMMV of the movie. To me, that seems enough. I don't think it's quite a case of Character Perception Evolution.

Found this on the Hazbin Hotel YMMV.

Character Perception Evolution: "Adam was initially seen as good and the Sinners seen as evil during the pilot, so everyone initially assumed that Adam, head of the Exorcists, was an Anti-Villain alongside the rest of Heaven. Then the full series was released and everyone realized that Adam is a Tautological Templar, who justifies trying to keep Hell from rising up against Heaven with the ideal that Sinners can't be redeemed. Eventually, the audience realized what a despicable person he really is and would desire Hell to battle him over it, which they do, and win."

This sounds more like "the audience assumed a character would be a good guy when he wasn't" rather than "people changed their opinion on a character".

Who actually saw the Angels as being the good guys in the pilot? Heck, Adam wasn't even introduced in said pilot, and the angels were just these terrifying figures who slaughtered sinners.

Heck I though it was the opposite where people assumed heaven as awohle was like a horrible false utopia. Rather than what the shows goes with where other than the exorcists and higher ups. Their depicted as not knowing what's happening and good people.

The angels were just background dressing in the pilot. No one knew what kind of role they were going to play and most people assumed they'd be greater-scope threats. I don't remember people thinking Adam was going to be good or evil.

I’m not the most familar wi th legends but I suppose it could work, espically with how fatigued people have become with imperial defectors

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16954760790A29312100&page=8#comment-185

I agree with the Adam one not fitting, especially since I don't think it's been long enough for that to apply anyways.

• The Caped Crusader is often held high as a badass' badass, able to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the rest of the Justice League and prepare contingency plans if any of their powers were to fall into the wrong hands. Numerous stories and adaptations later and audiences began to notice that Batman's ability to beat any foe no matter their power level started to come across as no less ridiculous than the Bat-Shark repellent spray. His contingency plans combined with his perpetually sour mood also called into question why anyone on the Justice League would consider him an ally, since the Flash and Martian Manhunter are also detectives and the Green Lanterns can create gadgets that Batman could only dream of carrying.

• Following the success of A Death in the Family and The Killing Joke, the characterization of the Joker slowly but surely shifted from a dangerous but random criminal genius with a twisted sense of humor to a cruel sadist who inflicted pain and misery because he thought it was funny. This was generally seen as a positive development at first, since it made him dramatically more threatening, cemented his position as Batman's archenemy, and created some genuinely compelling emotional torque. However, a combination of repetitive storylines, the Joker's increasing importance to and prominence in the DC Universe as a whole, fan backlash against attempts to "darken" the mainstream comics, and it seeming increasingly implausible that Batman won't make an exception for the Joker when it comes to his Thou Shalt Not Kill rule to protect innocent lives (with attempts to explain his refusal to do so only raising more questions) have led to far more polarized opinions on the current characterization of the Clown Prince of Crime. While virtually everyone agrees that such characterization for the Joker can and does work in the right context, the current take on him has been increasingly criticized as overly predictable (especially for a character meant to be defined by his unpredictability), with some of his more impressive and outrageous feats being seen as straining credulity even by the standards of DC Comics. Many fans have been clamoring for him to return to something closer to his Bronze Age personality, with some even going so far as to say that him straddling the line between villain and antihero would make more sense for a self-proclaimed "agent of chaos" than him being a brutal murderhobo who kills for fun. While this take on the Joker still has his share of fans, it's nonetheless far more criticized than it was initially.

So I gottta ask is this true. Batman and Joker are still the most popular hero and villain in DC.

Yes and no. I have seen those sentiments even though they are still popular. I just don't know if it is widespread enough.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 27th 2024 at 12:25:43 PM

As a superhero fan, I'd say both sentiments are relatively common. Many fans dislike Batman being a complete paranoid d***, treating his allies badly, and being portrayed as "Bat God", i.e., being so boringly competent that in any fight between him and Superman, it's Superman that is the underdog now.

Also, this goes hand-in-hand with the dislike over the Joker being ever more of an invincible villain in a slasher franchise, murdering and maiming supporting characters with no punishment, instead of a supervillain in a superhero universe, and with Batman refusing to kill the Joker being seen as more and more of a silly and outdated remnant of an earlier era, considering how much of an unrepentant, unstoppable mass murderer the Joker is now.

Ironically, Batman's ultra-grim paranoia and invincibility against other superheroes is seen as a sort of overcompensation for how utterly helpless he is against the Joker.

Well, having said that yes, those reactions are not uncommon, and have been with us for more than a decade, I am not sure whether they're much more than the complaints of a noisy minority. Not tiny, but still a minority. There are many Batman fans that are indifferent, like, or even love the modern takes on Batman and the Joker, and even more fans that think these portrayals work marvelously with talented writers, but can fail in the hands of writers and editors too eager to shock. In other words, it's not the concept that is the problem, but the execution.

I think it's safe to say there is a bit of a Broken Base going on. Perhaps the entries could be re-written to reflect this. That these opinions are not uncommon, but they didn't really account for the majority.

Edited by renenarciso2 on Apr 27th 2024 at 10:53:53 AM

I know for a fact that there's a significant number of people who have grown tired of the Joker because of how much the Misaimed Fandom surrounding him has grown, and how he's inspired so many copycats. Just my two cents.

it sounds like those reactions have come exclusively from 21st century stories, so unless it taints prior works I don’t think they count

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Some of the stuff these fans complain about started in the 1980s and 1990s, actually. But back then those stories were almost universally beloved.

The displeasure from part of the fandom really set in in the 21st century with far less universally loved stories flanderizing those traits.

I don't know the extent of how the old stories were tainted. Really, nothing is sacred or unanimous in the Internet today. Certain stories like The Killing Joke, have become very divisive.

But it's undeniable that Batman and the Joker are still massively popular.