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Duplicate Trope: Bishonen

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    Original post 
Pretty Boy and Bishōnen are very similar tropes. Both deal with male androgynous characters (skinny, cleanshaven, ect.) being treated as attractive. The main difference being, of course, that one is only found in Eastern media... right?

The wick check I did shows an estimate as follows:

  • 4% of Bishōnen examples and 7% of Pretty Boy examples are good examples with decent amounts of context showing that the character is androgynous, is considered attractive in-universe, and is an Eastern (in the case of Bishōnen) or Western (in the case of Pretty Boy) work.

  • 8% of Bishōnen examples (zces included) are on Western pages, while the same applies the other way.

  • 86% of Bishōnen examples and 64% of Pretty Boy examples are zero-context or vague potholes.

  • The remaining 2% of Bishōnen wicks and 21% of Pretty Boy wicks are various other forms of misuse (Fandom gushing and "A character gets called "Pretty Boy", respectively).

So, not only are Bishonen and Pretty Boy pretty much interchangable according to wiki editors, but it also seems that both tropes suffer from a lot of Zero-Context Example issues. If an obvious and functioning trope can be salvaged out of one of them, I can't see it. My only proposed option is to have them, and their redirects, redirect to A Pretty Boy Index, which houses all the relevant subtropes.

Wick Checks

    Bishonen checks (50/50) 

Correct usage: A boyish and slender attractive man, treated as such in the Eastern or Eastern-styled work he is from (3)

  • Fate/Grand Order - Sabers N to Z: He was famed for his beautiful face, to the point that entire armies on both sides would stop to gaze at it. To earn their respect as a warrior, he hides it behind a demonic mask, and it's even weaponized as his Noble Phantasm. (On a different example): He has a very lithe physique suiting his Bishōnen appearance [...]
  • Sekirei Participants Of Sekirei Plan: He's extremely pretty with an androgynous face, MUCH to Yukari's delight.
  • Jewelpet Happiness: Intentionally drawn as femininely attractive and with a lean figure.

Misuse: The character is from a Western work (6)

  • TwoKinds: Mystical White Hair: In both forms, though she's got a lot more hair in her wolf form. She inherits this from her father, who is a white wolf Keidran in his natural form and a white haired Bishōnen in his human form. (Under Raine's folder)
  • Nancy Drew: Sonny Joon, of all people, turns out to be this when you meet him for the first time in The Shattered Medallion.
  • HonorHarrington.Tropes A To F: Victor Cachat, repeatedly described as cute, and Jeremy X, who was literally genetically engineered to be one, to fit his intended role as a jester.
  • Fate: The Winx Saga: Pretty Boy: He quite resembles a real-life Bishōnen.
  • Northwest Smith: Yarol. This is apparently typical of people from Venus. (Slashed with Pretty Boy)
  • TakeThatScrappy.The DCU: One of the (many) controversial decisions made during the New 52 was Lobo being reintroduced as a slender, clean-shaven Bishōnen instead of the grungy, musclebound slob fans had come to know and love.

Misuse: The audience/Troper finds the character pretty (1)

Unclear (Zero-context, vague potholes) (63)

Other

    Pretty Boy checks (50/50) 

Correct usage: A boyish and slender attractive man, treated as such in the Western work he is from (4)

  • Gone: In the first book, he is described as being "pretty, like a girl". (Under Peter's heading in the Perdido Beach folder)
  • The Outsiders: Soda is often described by Ponyboy as looking like a movie star or a Greek God.
  • WorldOfWarcraft.Tropes M To R:
    • Blood Elves, such as Kael'thas Sunstrider (who wasn't quite so pretty the second time). And how! One of the silly lines for playable Blood Elves is "Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
    • Also applies to the High Elves, who are a separate political faction of the same race; what minor differences exist between the two are based on their different approaches to satisfying their magic addiction.
    • Lampshaded aboard one of the ships traversing the Great Sea. One of the female sailors complains that the male high elf first mate is prettier than her. (This and above bullet should be merged)

Misuse: The character is from an Eastern work (5)

Misuse: The audience/Troper finds the character pretty (4)

Misuse: Trope name used as a stock phrase (5)

  • Marvel Comics: Quicksilver: Depending on the art, Quicksilver is usually not a pretty boy except for X-Men Evolution cartoon. However, in one X-Factor issue, he was called 'Pretty Boy' by his inmates when he was put in prison for vagrancy. (Under Quicksilver's folder - seems kinda stock phrasey)
  • Characters/Quasar: Depending on the artist, the most prominent example is when Greg Capullo draws him in several issues of the solo series. In one issue, he was even called 'Pretty Boy' by a villain. (Also stock phrasey)
  • Trans Ponies: Tex isn't feminine but he's softer looking than Rainbow Dash and Big Macintosh. Rainbow outright calls him a "pretty boy" (Also stock phrasey)
  • Destiny Child: Ho Yay: The young master himself has mentioned that Frej is hot, as well as Rufus. He also refers to Tristan as a Pretty Boy.
  • Airlocked Round Two: He takes great offence when Kip calls him one, but it's true.

Unclear (Zero-context, vague potholes) (36)

Other (2)

Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 31st 2022 at 1:09:53 PM

GoldenCityBird from the UK Since: Oct, 2018
#1: Mar 10th 2022 at 6:25:13 AM

To-do list:

    Original post 
Pretty Boy and Bishōnen are very similar tropes. Both deal with male androgynous characters (skinny, cleanshaven, ect.) being treated as attractive. The main difference being, of course, that one is only found in Eastern media... right?

The wick check I did shows an estimate as follows:

  • 4% of Bishōnen examples and 7% of Pretty Boy examples are good examples with decent amounts of context showing that the character is androgynous, is considered attractive in-universe, and is an Eastern (in the case of Bishōnen) or Western (in the case of Pretty Boy) work.

  • 8% of Bishōnen examples (zces included) are on Western pages, while the same applies the other way.

  • 86% of Bishōnen examples and 64% of Pretty Boy examples are zero-context or vague potholes.

  • The remaining 2% of Bishōnen wicks and 21% of Pretty Boy wicks are various other forms of misuse (Fandom gushing and "A character gets called "Pretty Boy", respectively).

So, not only are Bishonen and Pretty Boy pretty much interchangable according to wiki editors, but it also seems that both tropes suffer from a lot of Zero-Context Example issues. If an obvious and functioning trope can be salvaged out of one of them, I can't see it. My only proposed option is to have them, and their redirects, redirect to A Pretty Boy Index, which houses all the relevant subtropes.

Wick Checks

    Bishonen checks (50/50) 

Correct usage: A boyish and slender attractive man, treated as such in the Eastern or Eastern-styled work he is from (3)

  • Fate/Grand Order - Sabers N to Z: He was famed for his beautiful face, to the point that entire armies on both sides would stop to gaze at it. To earn their respect as a warrior, he hides it behind a demonic mask, and it's even weaponized as his Noble Phantasm. (On a different example): He has a very lithe physique suiting his Bishōnen appearance [...]
  • Sekirei Participants Of Sekirei Plan: He's extremely pretty with an androgynous face, MUCH to Yukari's delight.
  • Jewelpet Happiness: Intentionally drawn as femininely attractive and with a lean figure.

Misuse: The character is from a Western work (6)

  • TwoKinds: Mystical White Hair: In both forms, though she's got a lot more hair in her wolf form. She inherits this from her father, who is a white wolf Keidran in his natural form and a white haired Bishōnen in his human form. (Under Raine's folder)
  • Nancy Drew: Sonny Joon, of all people, turns out to be this when you meet him for the first time in The Shattered Medallion.
  • HonorHarrington.Tropes A To F: Victor Cachat, repeatedly described as cute, and Jeremy X, who was literally genetically engineered to be one, to fit his intended role as a jester.
  • Fate: The Winx Saga: Pretty Boy: He quite resembles a real-life Bishōnen.
  • Northwest Smith: Yarol. This is apparently typical of people from Venus. (Slashed with Pretty Boy)
  • TakeThatScrappy.The DCU: One of the (many) controversial decisions made during the New 52 was Lobo being reintroduced as a slender, clean-shaven Bishōnen instead of the grungy, musclebound slob fans had come to know and love.

Misuse: The audience/Troper finds the character pretty (1)

Unclear (Zero-context, vague potholes) (63)

Other

    Pretty Boy checks (50/50) 

Correct usage: A boyish and slender attractive man, treated as such in the Western work he is from (4)

  • Gone: In the first book, he is described as being "pretty, like a girl". (Under Peter's heading in the Perdido Beach folder)
  • The Outsiders: Soda is often described by Ponyboy as looking like a movie star or a Greek God.
  • WorldOfWarcraft.Tropes M To R:
    • Blood Elves, such as Kael'thas Sunstrider (who wasn't quite so pretty the second time). And how! One of the silly lines for playable Blood Elves is "Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
    • Also applies to the High Elves, who are a separate political faction of the same race; what minor differences exist between the two are based on their different approaches to satisfying their magic addiction.
    • Lampshaded aboard one of the ships traversing the Great Sea. One of the female sailors complains that the male high elf first mate is prettier than her. (This and above bullet should be merged)

Misuse: The character is from an Eastern work (5)

Misuse: The audience/Troper finds the character pretty (4)

Misuse: Trope name used as a stock phrase (5)

  • Marvel Comics: Quicksilver: Depending on the art, Quicksilver is usually not a pretty boy except for X-Men Evolution cartoon. However, in one X-Factor issue, he was called 'Pretty Boy' by his inmates when he was put in prison for vagrancy. (Under Quicksilver's folder - seems kinda stock phrasey)
  • Characters/Quasar: Depending on the artist, the most prominent example is when Greg Capullo draws him in several issues of the solo series. In one issue, he was even called 'Pretty Boy' by a villain. (Also stock phrasey)
  • Trans Ponies: Tex isn't feminine but he's softer looking than Rainbow Dash and Big Macintosh. Rainbow outright calls him a "pretty boy" (Also stock phrasey)
  • Destiny Child: Ho Yay: The young master himself has mentioned that Frej is hot, as well as Rufus. He also refers to Tristan as a Pretty Boy.
  • Airlocked Round Two: He takes great offence when Kip calls him one, but it's true.

Unclear (Zero-context, vague potholes) (36)

Other (2)

Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 31st 2022 at 1:09:53 PM

TRS Wick Cleaning
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#3: Mar 10th 2022 at 6:47:04 AM

Bishōnen is literally an Anime Fan Speak version of Pretty Boy as far as I'm aware.

I could argue Pretty Boy has a saving grace as a Token Pretty Boy archetype (if we don't have that one, School Idol?), which is common in school settings similar to Jerk Jock, since they are often surrounded by fangirls and their thoughts often don't match their appearance. Or outside the school the character can be commented on for having a feminine appearance.

But yeah, many examples I see border on YMMV territory or just a part of the Appearance Tropes plague.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 10th 2022 at 5:55:04 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4: Mar 10th 2022 at 6:52:51 AM

It always struck me as weird that Bishōnen was a trope but Bishoujo was fanspeak. If we are detroping Bishōnen they should match.

I think Pretty Boy might be salveageable as an IUEO trope (someone uses it to refer to a slender fine-featured male character).

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2022 at 8:53:54 AM

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#5: Mar 10th 2022 at 7:03:00 AM

"Bishonen" literally means beautiful boy in Japanese so there's no reason why this should be a separate trope beyond Fan Myopia.

As for whether or not Pretty Boy itself is trope-worthy... I guess it works as a counterpart for things like In Touch with His Feminine Side where a guy has a more stereotypically girly appearance and is considered more attractive (rather than a sissy) because of it.

Tonwen HoMM Fan from Axeoth Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
HoMM Fan
#6: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:04:50 AM

If Bishoujo is fanspeak I see no reason to keep its Spear Counterpart as a trope.

Pretty Boy is more general and can cover both, if we decide to keep it as a trope.

"Grandmaster Combat, son!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#7: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:14:40 AM

Is anyone familiar with how the tropes (Bishōnen and Pretty Boy) are used in the relative media? I don't think we can rely on a wick check to demonstrate differences or similarities between tropes - tropers often miss out on important details.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#8: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:16:52 AM

I think we should turn Bishōnen into a pure Anime Fanspeak Definition-Only Page and merge the trope itself with Pretty Boy.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#9: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:22:19 AM

I have seen both tropes in media several times and the only notable difference to me is that Bishounen tend Pretty Boy is that the former tends to slide more on the androgynous side in appearance like the description for both trope notes. The Pretty Boy article also notes that they tend to have "feminine mannerisms". I don't know if that's enough to justify a split though. I think we can safely merge them and note in the description that pretty boys in Asian media or portrayed in a slightly different way.

Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 10th 2022 at 11:25:11 AM

Macron's notes
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#10: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:25:52 AM

[up]I think cross-referencing Bishōnen in Pretty Boy's description if we merge the two would be fine.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#11: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:27:27 AM

I don't think there are substantial differences specific to the media. There can be some audience appeal like Yaoi Fans, but I still believe one is a literal translation of the other that fans use interchangeably.

I think we can just merge the descriptions together or make an Analysis page since the page has unnecessary details of how the term came to be.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Eiryu Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#12: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:50:01 AM

I think the major difference is that in Eastern media, Bishounen, while often fairly androgynous in mannerisms as well as appearance, is usually a positive thing, Pretty Boy is...often used far more dismissively or insultingly.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#13: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:55:43 AM

The difference in beauty standards in Pretty Boy vs. Hunk is a good point. Shoujo manga, Chinese/Japanese/Korean-drama leads, K-pop boys etc. are slender, soft, fine-featured, and sparkly, and this is treated as aspirational.

Still I can see that explained in the description of a combined trope.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2022 at 10:57:20 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#14: Mar 10th 2022 at 8:57:43 AM

[up][up]Tropes Are Flexible, so I don't see why we can't have both types of portrayals under a single trope. Plus, Pretty Boy says Bishōnen is a subtrope, meaning the former says the latter's examples are examples of it as well, due to subtropes' examples all being examples of the supertrope as well.

(Also, for what it's worth, Bishōnen literally means Pretty Boy in Japanese.)

Edit: I was ninja'd by Synchronicity, and I'd like to add that an alternative to listing different connotations in the description would be putting them on an Analysis page.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 10th 2022 at 11:00:40 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eiryu Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15: Mar 10th 2022 at 9:01:21 AM

I wasn't saying they need to maintain separate tropes, I trying to explain the difference as it's generally seen—it wasn't an argument in favor of not merging, it was an attempt to answer a question.

I'm not saying it's necessarily different, but there is a very take on that falls pretty solidly and mostly consistently on culture lines, although of course it's not a perfect split.

And yes, it does literally translate to "Beautiful Boy."

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#16: Mar 10th 2022 at 9:10:16 AM

Fair enough. Seems like I misunderstood, which wouldn't be surprising considering I'm kind of disoriented due to a combination of allergies and being tired.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
NotGonnaDoALot4 Man in the Yellow Hat from God knows. Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Man in the Yellow Hat
#17: Mar 10th 2022 at 10:34:57 AM

I think we can salvage Pretty Boy as a "IUEO" trope, covering both positive and negative reactions?

There's so much I wish I could take back.
Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
#18: Mar 10th 2022 at 11:31:09 AM

I agree with making Bishōnen a fan-speak page and Pretty Boy IUEO.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#19: Mar 10th 2022 at 1:39:55 PM

Making it IUEO would work since the good examples, while less common than misuse, often involve characters who are considered attractive in-universe.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#20: Mar 13th 2022 at 9:23:34 AM

So it's been three days. What are our potential crowner options?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Orbiting Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#22: Mar 13th 2022 at 1:01:10 PM

Hooked a crowner with the above options

Macron's notes
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#23: Mar 13th 2022 at 2:12:53 PM

I'm pretty sure merging the Bishōnen trope with Pretty Boy isn't mutually exclusive with turning the Bishōnen page into a Fan Speak page, so if both of those options have consensus, we can do what we did with Meganekko fairly recently.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#24: Mar 16th 2022 at 1:02:13 AM

Calling in favor of the following:

We probably wouldn't have to make too many changes to the description to either Bishōnen or Pretty Boy, but any valid examples would need to be moved from the former to the latter.

Just remove examples from Bishōnen after they're moved to Pretty Boy, and add the "No examples, please" notice and a commented-out link to this thread, and add the page to the Definition-Only Pages index (I didn't do that yet because I was waiting for the examples to be moved) after all examples have been taken care of.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 16th 2022 at 3:09:05 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Zabilac Since: Jul, 2012
#25: Mar 18th 2022 at 4:58:40 PM

[up]I Support.

When you say In-Universe Examples Only, do you mean if they're actually called Pretty Boy, even if mockingly, or also if they're described as good-looking/handsome but don't qualify as a Hunk?

Edited by Zabilac on Mar 18th 2022 at 5:34:11 AM

Trope Repair Shop: Bishounen and Pretty Boy
13th Mar '22 12:57:18 PM

Crown Description:

What should be done with Bishounen and Pretty Boy?

Total posts: 112
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