During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Not the Eye
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Lance
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Piniet, unexpected one.
My next potential Black Widowers candidate was the recurring character but 1) do I have to re-read every single appearance? and 2) I don't know if he is bad enough since he is normally a heroic character but did engage in a Paranoia Gambit toward an emery once and sometimes is willing to let crimes the characters discuss at their table unpunished due to their confidentiality rules.
Yes you should reread every appearance. We should know everything the character is about. If it's very minor and you can't find out just mention it, but even still you should talk about everything the candidate does.
Lance, Piniet.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 5th 2022 at 6:05:50 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
My issue with that was about whether people who do long-running comic book characters like Magneto, Dracula, and cat woman had to read all of their appearances.
Goku Black
Piniet
This is the fourth for André Sogliuzzo.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The only exception to not having to be familiar with all of a character’s appearances is if you’re discounting some due to a Depending on the Author situation Mel, otherwise you’re expected to have all of a character’s story in recent enough memory so we can trust what we’re voting on.
Goku Black
Melinda. I would recommend have like a draft or document to record each appearance so you can do the thing at your own leisure.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I might do that or I might pass him by. I get the Depending on the Author use but what about series with Comic-Book Time where there is never any serious attempt at continuity between short story collections?
Ultimate Moral Compass
So here's a random character that popped into my head last week, that I think might be worth an effortpost.
So without further ado...
"Here
Here
Here we go!"
What’s the Work
Donkey Kong 64 is a collectathon platformer by Rare and Nintendo released in 1999 for (what else?) the Nintendo 64, and the final Donkey Kong game developed by Rare.
Infamous for it's massive amount of collectibles and its use of the Nintendo 64's Expansion Pack, the game involves Donkey Kong having to stop his arch enemy King K. Rool and his army of Kremlings from destroying DK Isle with the Blast-O-Matic. And if that wasn't enough, K. Rool stole DK's golden bananas and entrapped his friends and family members, such as Diddy and newcomers Tiny, Lanky ("a fucking disgrace"), and Chunky.
Donkey and friends have many allies who help them in their plan to stop K. Rool, such as this lovely fellow...
Who is He?
Snide is a shady weasel who assists the Kongs in taking out K. Rool.
What does he do?
Originally K. Rool’s chief technician who helped create the Blast-O-Matic with intent to destroy all of DK Isle, Snide was fired by K. Rool out of paranoia, worried that he might betray him. Looking to get back at his former boss, Snide secretly helps the Kongs out by promising access to K. Rool’s lair and ways to disable the Blast-O-Matic, just as long as they return the weapon’s old blueprints held by some of K. Rool’s men, in return for some Golden Bananas.
The final level involves the Kongs having to disable the Blast-O-Matic before it can fire, resulting in a time limit. Should the player return some blueprints, Snide is able to prevent the weapon from firing for a few minutes to allow the player to complete the final level, with each blueprint returned adding more time (I think the minimum is 5 minutes if you don’t return any, 50’s the max), with Snide wishing the player luck.
Either way, with Snide’s help, the DK Crew are able to stop the Blast-O-Matic and defeat K. Rool, with Snide successfully foiling his former boss.
Is he charming? Intelligent? Able to think on his feet?
Snide may be a literal weasel, but he’s helpful to the Kongs, and capable of scheming behind K. Rool’s back as he secretly assists the Kongs any way he can, with K. Rool ultimately unaware that he’s being fucked over by Snide.
Is he a bastard? Too much of one?
Snide was formerly onboard with K. Rool’s plan to destroy DK Isle, and he’s presented as the most morally ambiguous ally of the Kongs (compared to Cranky, Candy, and Funky). Plus it's kinda implied that he’s lashing out at K. Rool mainly because he’s bitter about his unfair firing than actual altruism.
But Snide is far from evil (K. Rool is way worse), and will do anything to stop his former boss from destroying DK Isle, proving to be one of the more helpful allies of the game. And boy, getting all the blueprints for him makes the final level a breeze, let me tell you.
Verdict?
I think he keeps
Edited by therealjackieboy on Oct 5th 2022 at 3:48:38 AM
"No running in the halls!"
A happy yes for my childhood!
Goku Black
Smide
Somehow, Gonkatine Returned
Piniet and Snide.
If there's no real story connection then you can do an "overall" post like Lex Luthor or Dr. Doom but be ready for people to have a lot of general questions. mir gave you a good suggestion about a draft Mel, use that if you'd like to go for such a case.
Piniet & Snide
DK is going on Super Mario Bros. IIRC right?
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yep
Snide.
Yes to Snide.
Yes to Piniet and Snide.
Given Fallout 1 and 2 were chronologiclaly in the past of the modern Fallout game, I'm gonna write the entries for the first two games in past tense.
- Fallout:
- The Vault Dweller was a mythical hero whose humble quest to save Vault 13 from dehydration accidentally led him into a conflict with a monstrous enemy that would forever shape the post-apocalyptic West Coast. Starting as an unlucky everyman forced into scouring the wastelands for a replacement water chip, the Vault Dweller would make allies of the local settlements and work with many immoral factions to gather clues that would lead him to accomplishing his goal. Finding the water chip led him to discovering a new breed of Super Mutant led by a mysterious Master that the Vault Dweller swore to destroy to save his people. Disguising himself as one of the mysterious Children of the Cathedral who worship the Master, the Vault Dweller infiltrated the Master's base and set off a nuclear bomb to end his plans before traveling to the Super Mutant military base and destroying the vats that created them. Saving the wasteland would ultimately make the Vault Dweller a legendary figure to the future people of New California and secure his legacy forever after.
- John Maxson was the High Elder of the Brotherhood of Steel during the days of the Super Mutants' attempted conquest of the West Coast. A charismatic leader and skilled tactician, Maxson established friendly contact and trade routes with the local settlements and armed them with advanced weaponry exchanged for food and water. Keeping the Brotherhood isolated regardless, Maxson would regularly send outsiders seeking recruitment on suicide missions to scare off or get them killed. When the Vault Dweller succeeds at his mission, an impressed Maxson initiates him and sends him to scout out disappearing caravans to find proof of the growing mutant army. With proof of the military base, Maxson convinces the rest of the Brotherhood to take action and help the Vault Dweller end the Super Mutant threat.
- Decker was a criminal mastermind and the true power in the Hub, the largest trading city in the wasteland. Decker built his criminal empire from scratch by slowly but surely buying out the major caravan companies and bribing the local law enforcement to ignore his illegal enterprises. Founding a high class bar as his base and running a loan shark gig for side cash, Decker will higher a suitably immoral Vault Dweller to assassinate key figures threatening his authority, including the head of the Water Merchants caravan and the local head of the Children of the Cathedral. Even if the Vault Dweller turns him in to the uncorrupted new sheriff, Decker proves wise enough to have foreseen his betrayal and plan a trap to wipe out all his enemies at once.
- Loxley is the founder and leader of the Thieves' Circle and posh gentleman seeking to emulate the tale of Robin Hood in the post-apocalypse. Loxley recruits only the very best thieves into his tight knit group and constantly moves his operations to avoid the wrath of Decker or the Hub police. Giving part of the Circle's wealth to the poor, Loxley nevertheless puts deadly booby trap that can kill or maim the unwary to protect his base while also using the maze of traps as the first trial to test potential new recruits.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Piniet and Snide.
to Lance.
to Piniet & Snide
to Piniet and Snide.
Anyways...
What's the work?
RTGame is a well known Irish streamer best known for playing video games in the most chaotic ways possible (killing every npc in Hitman while dressed as a clown, roleplaying as Walter White while playing Stardew Valley, Playing God In The Sims, etc.). One of his more well-loved games to stream is the Ace Attorney series, if only due to his iconic portrayal of Manfred von Karma. This portrayal was so well loved, that he posted a full-blown animated music video voicing him. Which leads us to the man himself?
Who is Manfred von Karma? What has he done?
Like in the first game, Manfred von Karma is the egotistical Amoral Attorney who will do anything to keep his spotless record. Murdering Gregory Edgeworth for threatening his flawless record, he molds Edgeworth into his successor before framing him for murder as one last act of revenge against his father. Unlike in canon though, not only is Phoenix unable to prove von Karma's guilt, but he paid-off the Judge (who's Goofy Goof because reasons); ensuring that he'd get away with his crimes scot free. After the guilty verdict is passed, von Karma takes the opportunity to gleefully explain how he played everyone (in song form) before fleeing to Germany; with Phoenix unable to do anything about it, except shout "Von Karma, no!"
Is he Magnificent?
Von Karma's every bit the Manipulative Bastard he is in canon, while being far more successful. Not only does he murder Gregory Edgeworth without anyone being the wiser and successfully frames Miles for another murder, but he pays off the judge ahead of time and ultimately leaving Phoenix unable to prove that he's the true killer. And while canon von Karma's too fundamentally petty and cruel to count, here, his pettiness is replaced with sheer ego; boastfully singing about his greatness to the tune of "You're Welcome" and RTGame hamming it up the whole way. The video also puts much less emphasis on his pettiness and greater focus on his status as an Evil Genius who's the best at what he does (manipulation).
Is he a Bastard?
He's an Amoral Attorney who murdered the one attorney who successfully opposed him and molded his son into being a total prick like him. However, the video excises some of his more heinous actions, such as assaulting Phoenix with a taser. Not only that, but his actions aren't played nearly as seriously as in the game, with the entire video being a playful tune parodying a Disney song that plays his actions as Black Comedy at worst.
Final verdict?
I personally lean towards yes, but it's up to you guys.
Snide.
Agree with everything said about having a candidate in recent memory, but just want to throw out there that for a video game candidate, watching the relevant parts of a walk through is a good option if it's longer than you're willing to dedicate to a replay.
I hate spoilers
Yeah, I've done that for some of mine.
