Norse mythology thread

Also, a few years back I read a book called Macbeth and Son by Jackie French, which is about this modern boy who dreams about Macbeth and his stepson Lulach in the eleventh century.

The author says on her website that she wrote the book because she believes that the kind of distortion of the truth Shakespeare engaged in for his play is an example of lying, in much the same way that deceptive advertising is a lie.

If Macbeth is a lie, does that mean that Grettis saga, for example, is a lie because the real Grettir Asmundarson didn't wrestle a zombie/draugr or fight trolls? Or is it different because the Icelandic sagas were written for entertainment?

I really don't buy any of that. Mc Beth was written to be entertaining. Plays were the Hollywood movies of their time and it was a a noisy event with the jeers and applause from all classes in the audience. Just as a skald reciting a legend in a hall for the entertainment of the people was entertainment.

Yeah, to be blunt I agree with her points on a lot of things, but I think she's a bit off base on this. I mean, the point of Macbeth isn't to give an accurate historical account. It's to entertain and explore ideas about kingship. If it was intended to be a historical account, then she might have a point.

Same with the sagas. AFAIK they weren't supposed to be historical accounts.

edited 19th Jul '13 12:18:47 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Right. Actually, Shakespeare cribbed a lot of his plots from Greek mythology and or lesser-known writers of his time. Not to say that he wasn't awesome, but his plots are hardly original. And gods, was he a vulgar man. Kids would have a lot more fun if the 17th century slang was translated.

@Morwen: You sure have a habit of making me write long posts...

… and that Ragnar suddenly thinks higher of her now only because he knows she is of noble family. Morals: Nobility of descent > all.

Also, the lesson from the 'Cinderella plot' is not actually "Fate will eventually reward good people", but rather "You can't hide royal blood". – I guess even Charles Dickens would have shied away from the extreme classism which was standard in the Middle Ages.

Well, her body was the only reason a king would marry a peasant girl. She had no other value to him at the time. Against the backdrop of an aristocratic/classist society, he was already treating her rather well, as a man in his position could have raped her without marrying her. In short, the saga suggests he did wrong, but primarily because Kraka was actually a princess and (only) therefore did not deserve such a treatment.

EDIT: Also, it looks like Ragnar initially intended to take her as his concubine, but she insisted on getting married. It's plausible that by the rules of the setting's society, her demand that he not sleep with her on their wedding night would have been widely considered a little too demanding.

I think you're indeed "stretching" too much. Theoretically, the song could refer to something really specific from history or legend. But what is more likely is that it's one of those "free associations" lyrics that don't mean anything in particular. I mean, what does "Stairway to Heaven" mean? It could be about anything, which is why it ultimately is about nothing specific. "Words that go good with the music" is probably the best answer.

Specifically, apart from the mention of Thor there is nothing in the song lyrics to suggest a connection to the world of Norse myth, and the line "to build a dream for me and you" doesn't really fit into your interpretation (although I wouldn't know into which one it would fit). I admit I'm not sure what the phrase "to hold no quarter" means.

The implication of Ragnar's Saga is that she did eventually begin to talk, even if it's not said when that was. But Grima does not mention that her daughter is mute when talking to Ragnar's crewmen, and then Aslaug herself "asked 'What shall I do?'" (chapter V), without anyone being startled at it.– I think her temporary muteness is only mentioned to illustrate that she was traumatized by the death of Heimir. There's a similar instance from Laxdoela Saga where an Irish princess carried off into slavery stops talking so that everyone thinks she is mute, until (years later) she is caught talking with her child. Again, her self-chosen muteness is an expression of her being traumatized.

Books or movies about living persons have fueled many a lawsuit. It's much easier to write about dead persons (they can't sue you).—Also, it rarely causes offence to make people more awesome. In Macbeth's case, it is the rather egregious Historical Villain Upgrade which rubs some people the wrong way. In his own time, Macbeth was neither considered illegitimate, tyrannical, nor a "bad king". Grettir is a different case because the fictional Grettir is indubitably more awesome than the real one (who would almost surely be completely forgotten without Grettir's Saga).

It depends. Some sagas, like Heimskringla or Sturlunga saga, are by intent histories, not mere "stories". You'll notice that for medieval works, they are pretty realistic. Hrolf Kraki's Saga, Völsunga saga, or Ragnar's Saga aren't realistic, and were not intended to be taken as plain facts (although the assumption that some guys called Sigurd, Hrolf or Ragnar had once lived was pretty much accepted). Then, there are literary compositions like "Tale of Norna-Gest" which (probably) aren't based on any old tradition, and have been thought up by the author from whole cloth.

I don't usually read fan fiction. I might take a shot at it, but I can't promise anything.

edited 21st Jul '13 11:48:40 AM by LordGro

As i mentioned, many sagas are pretty realistic by the standards of folklore, and more than a few go a good bit into law and trials. Hardly the stuff of myth.

@Gro: Want to know something? My ambition is to become an academic and specialise in Old Norse and Icelandic Studies. And if that happens, I'll get paid to research and talk/write about stuff like this. (And my knowledge will improve and increase, which is a great thing.) Also, I am such a nerd. I mean, only nerds want to do Old Norse and become academics . But then everyone on here is a nerd anyway, so...

On muteness; Yeah, and many people who have been traumatised IRL become mute temporarily, so that's realistic. "Hold no quarter" means to take no prisoners and show no mercy.

edited 21st Jul '13 10:47:19 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Or you could become the next Tolkien

His work on the subject is actually pretty informative. Which is a little surprising given his strong faith, but he treats it with a lot of respect and his commentary is still good even today.

Yeah, in my dreams! .

edited 22nd Jul '13 6:49:05 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Something that occurred to me re takes on the sagas: I don't actually consider reworking a saga plot to be "fanfiction": these stories are ancient legends and folktales often with a basis in real history. That's like saying reworking Rapunzel is fanfiction. I'd define fanfiction as writing something based on a copyrighted or out-of-copyright work just for enjoyment.

A steampunk AU of Hrolf Kraki set in Iceland and Denmark after a global nuclear war which is intended as a psychological study of the effects of creation of artificial life for certain purposes on the person created or born (Skuld and Alfhild, her mother) questions of bioethics and the effects of life in a neo-medieval society (which is basically what my idea is) is different from what I would define as fanfiction (I don't mean any disrespect to fanfic writers).

edited 24th Sep '13 5:51:10 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

bump

bump. Someone on AH.com told me there's a version of the legend where Regin uses goose droppings to reforge Gram.

edited 6th Oct '13 4:57:30 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Some comments.

Skuld doesn't really mean debt or even future etymologically. It's more necessity or "duty". It might be related to the words "shall" and "should".

One great interpretation of the tale of Sigurd is Rhinegold by Stephan Grundy. It combines the myth with the actual migration period in central Europe.

@kjnoren: I've come across a theory in the book The Elder Edda And Ancient Scandinavian Drama that the Sigurd story (boy is raised by dwarf who tries to kill him after he kills a dwarf-turned dragon who was originally his foster father's brother and betroths himself to valkyrie) is originally unconnected to the Nibelungs' tale and is a heroic tale from Norway.

edited 3rd Nov '13 4:25:24 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Wouldn't surprise me at all. Tales in an oral tradition tends to cross-attach and mutate all the time.

I'm not sure if attempts to find the "original" version are fruitful. Every retelling must be viewed as true in its own way.

I'm actually doing my own interpretation of the story of Sigurd which is set in a medieval-style steampunk future in Iceland, with Fáfnir the clockwork dragon. With Iceland, you have volcanoes and the geysir to use for symbolism, and the violent blood feuds and a great storytelling tradition in a very Norse culture. It's not that implausible to have a future Iceland adopting Norse values (so does the rest of Scandinavia, as a matter of fact).

edited 3rd Nov '13 4:55:49 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Go check out Michael Swanwick. No-one has done mechanical dragons better. See The Iron Dragon's Daughter and The Dragons of Babel - he's one of the real gems in dissecting fantasy tropes too.

@kjnoren: Thanks!

edited 5th Nov '13 8:53:33 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

On a related note does anyone know the name of the völva in ''Völuspá?" I always thought it was Heidr. The reason I'm asking is that in the story in question I've added a prologue in which she slips into a trance and tells the story of Brynhild and Sigurd through visions and her own memory and weaving (in my universe she was a guardian spirit of the Volsung clan). There are some sections where she serves as the third-person omniscient narrator.

Also (oh not again) anyone here an Icelander and willing to check cultural details? And in "Helreid Brynhildar", were the sisters really Brynhild's seven sisters or only her fellow Valkyrior?

edited 6th Nov '13 1:25:34 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

I'm an Icelander, what did you have in mind?

I don't think the völva in Völuspá is explicitly named anything (though her narration implies that she's a giantess). "Heiðr" is however the name of a völva who appears in the poem, though given that she's referred to in third person it doesn't seem like she's the same one as the narrator. Theoretically, you could name the völva whatever you want, or even assign her part to some other character, like Hyndla from Hyndluljóð. The Danish Valhalla comic series did something similar in its final album, where they gave parts of the völva's role to Thor's serving girl Röskva.

It's a post-apocalyptic steampunk retelling of the Volsunga Saga. With future Vikings. Concentrates mainly on Sigurdur and Brynhildur (what I call my 23rd-century-Icelandic-teenager versions of the characters. I'm using modern forms eg Grimhildur as the mother of Gudrun and Gunnar) If you think that's interesting I could PM (or email) you some of or all of what I've done so far. I mostly want confirmation/reassurance that I'm not writing anything hugely wrong, offensive or inaccurate and interesting pointers to make it culturally accurate. ^note  But the society I'm writing about is more medieval than modern Iceland apart from some Schizo Tech.

edited 7th Nov '13 4:06:49 AM by MorwenEdhelwen

Sure, if you think I can be of assistance. I'm hardly an expert, though, I've read a lot of the mythology and stories involving the gods, but my familiarity with the heroic legendary sagas is pretty casual.

@Dr Dougsh: Thanks. I'll PM you as soon as possible. Or email you if you'd prefer that.

edited 7th Nov '13 9:35:24 PM by MorwenEdhelwen

Also RE the Völva: As I understand it, she sometimes refers to herself in third person.

In your opinion, what's the best translation of the Poetic and Prose Eddas? Thanks!