YMMV / Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

• Alternative Character Interpretation:
  • Is Ramonda's decision to keep Riri Williams in Wakanda out of generosity or out of pragmatism since her vibranium-locating skills represents a tactical advantage over the Talokanil and the rest of the world? Perhaps it is a mixture of both?
  • The goddess Bast has some debate around her. She's confirmed to exist in the MCU, but it's never made clear why she doesn't answer Shuri's prayer. Did Bast outright ignore Shuri and doesn't care about the Black Panthers or was she unable to help because of the Ennead's frigid rules? Her presence in Thor: Love and Thunder at Omnipotence City also suggests she's become a lazy hedonist like the other gods present, or at the very least hiding from Gorr, further muddying the issue.
  • Everett Ross leaks multiple state secrets the moment Shuri asks for them. Is this a positive reflection of personal bonds with the Wakandans, or inexcusably reckless behavior towards a foreign power that (for all he knows) just murdered a bunch of his friends?
• Award Snub:
  • Given the high praise the original film received (all the way up to becoming the first MCU film to get nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture), on top of the praise this film received for being able to not only produce a follow-up considered by many to be either on par with or better than the original all while having to write around the unfortunate passing of Chadwick Boseman, this film not also receiving a Best Picture nomination was seen as an unpopular decision.
  • Many fans think composer Ludwig Göransson and production designer Hannah Beachler, who won Oscars for the first film, should have been nominated again for their roles in developing the world of Talokan.
  • Angela Bassett lost her nomination for the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress, sparking no shortage of outrage from her and the film’s fans. The winner, Jamie Lee Curtis, was also seen as something of an outlier compared to her fellow nominee and co-star in Everything Everywhere All at Once, Stephanie Hsu. Notably, Bassett's MCU co-stars Michael B. Jordan and Jonathan Majors took a moment to pay tribute to Bassett shortly after her loss when they took the stage as presenters.
  • Tenoch Huerta was deemed a surefire nominee for Best Villain at the MTV Movie & TV Awards when the movie came out — and even a strong contender to win — but he didn't get a nomination.
• Awesome Art: In comparison to the first film's teaser posters, this film debuted at SDCC with a gorgeous◊ poster that makes great use of negative space and the Black Panther garb to pays its respects to both T'Challa and Chadwick Boseman as well as allude to the presence of a new Black Panther.
• Awesome Music:
  • The first teaser is set to a heartwrenching yet epic cover of "No Woman, No Cry" by Tems. The first half conveys the grief being felt by T'Challa's loved ones over his death while the second half (mashed up with Kendrick Lamar's "Alright") kicks things into action mode to introduce the expanded scale of the film.
  • The official trailer is set to a likewise sorrowful, yet epic mix of - fittingly - "Never Forget" by Sampa the Great. The vocals and chorus are given more emphasis in the trailer to showcase that when all hope seems lost, a new Black Panther will eventually take on the mantle and become Wakanda's new protector.
  • The soundtrack’s lead single, "Lift Me Up" by Rihanna. Not only is it beautiful as all can be, and not only is it her first new song in six years^note which can be attributed to being occupied with other endeavors, such as launching her highly-successful Fenty Beauty cosmetics line, but it also doubles as a tearjerker, as it is a personal tribute to Boseman.
  • The score track Wakanda Forever underscores Shuri's first appearance as Black Panther and the reactions from the rest of the characters as it crescendos with their joy. It also sets the tone of the seriousness that she exhibits due to her quest for vengeance against Namor for killing Ramonda.
  • The Talokan siren music, heard here, is eerie and haunting.
  • The score track "Con La Brisa", is a breathtakingly beautiful piece that accompanies the scene when Namor takes Shuri on a tour of his underwater kingdom of Talokan. As Shuri marvels at the wonders of Talokan, so does the viewers as this accompanied soundtrack set the atmosphere of the entire sequence perfectly.
• Base-Breaking Character: Val was divisively received in this film due to being a major part of an extraneous subplot, and many accused Marvel of forcing the character into the film as build-up for future MCU installments such as Thunderbolts (this, at least, has since been disproven by the release of older script treatments and director Ryan Coogler's statements). Even if one didn't think she was just sequel bait, Val's detractors found her to be an obnoxious, overbearing addition to the film (a sentiment they already had about her past MCU appearances). Val's defenders generally still found her funny and enjoyed her scene wherein she sheds any notion of moral ambiguity by revealing she's a greedy imperialist who longs for America to bring Wakanda and the rest of the world under its foot with the power of vibranium.
• Broken Base: The death of T'Challa and the subsequent focus put on his supporting cast to enforce how The Character Died with Him has been one of the biggest controversies within the Marvel fandom. Some people sympathize with the choice due to the cast and crew's close connection to Chadwick Boseman and wanting to pay their respects to the character in their own way. Others believe that killing off the main character of his own franchise is entirely disrespectful to what Boseman and his family would've wanted, making the decision feel shortsighted and blinded by grief. The debate over whether T'Challa should’ve been recast for this film or not continues well after the release of the film.
• Catharsis Factor: After causing the deaths of Shuri's mother Ramonda and countless Wakandans, it's really satisfying to see Shuri giving Namor a well-deserved beat-up.
• Draco in Leather Pants: Namor has quickly garnered this status. While it helps that Namor's motives are far more sympathetic than his predecessor Killmonger (who himself got the Leather Pants treatment), some fans are willing to overlook some of his more morally dubious actions, going as far as to ship him with Shuri despite him being responsible for the deaths of many Wakandans, including her mother.
• Epileptic Trees: Prior to the film's release, there were rumors that this movie was intended to be Doctor Doom's MCU debut. This rumor was based on supposed leaks like Lake Bell's character working for Latveria rather than the US government as she did in the final product, Doom himself appearing in the post-credits scene, as well as the history the character has with both Wakanda and Namor in the comics.
• Evil Is Cool: Despite his "evil" being arguable, Namor stands out as an especially complex, intelligent, determined, and above all else dangerous antagonist.
• Fandom-Specific Plot: Namor and Shuri resolving their countries' differences through Altar Diplomacy has gotten popular.
• Foe Yay Shipping: A lot of fans walked away from this film shipping Shuri and Namor together, mainly due to the chemistry between their actors and Namor being seen by most fans as Evil Is Cool. This ignores the fact that not only are their countries at war, but Shuri spends much of the climax trying to kill Namor for killing her mother. This is helped by the fact that Shuri spares Namor and the fact that neither has a love interest in the film. There's also the fact that Namor takes Shuri on an underwater tour of his beloved kingdom - the first surfacer to visit Talokan in centuries - while a song whose lyrics describe a pair of lovers plays over the montage, and even gifts his prized vibranium bracelet given by his mother to her as a token of goodwill. Before both countries' relations break apart and turn hostile due to their leaders' unwillingness to compromise, Shuri and Namor were actually getting along quite well in their brief time together.
• Friendly Fandoms:
  • With The Little Mermaid (2023), due to being ocean-themed fantasy films with black princesses as leads
  • With The West Wing, due solely to Richard Schiff's cameo appearance as the nameless U.S. Secretary of State.
• Genius Bonus:
  • Why were the Mayans the only non-Wakandan people, out of all others in the world, to have access to vibranium? Well, vibranium came from meteors and the Mayans inhabited the Yucatan peninsula. And what do we know about meteors and the Yucatan Peninsula? That's right - Vibranium Killed The Dinosaurs!
  • That the Talokanil are Mayan in origin ties in to them having originally been Atlanteans in the comics. How so? According to the beliefs of Atlantists (people who believe in Atlantis), the Mayans were the descendants of Atlanteans.
• Germans Love David Hasselhoff: Much like how the first Black Panther attracted many African fans due to its portrayal of African society through Wakanda, this movie gained a large Hispanic audience due to Talokan paying homage to the history of Mayan-Aztec culture. Many Indigenous Latin Americans were also pleased to see Tenoch Huerta, Mabel Cadena and other dark-skinned actors from their country represented in a big blockbuster movie.
• Ghost Shipping: Yes, believe it or not, the MCU version of T'Challa/Namor really is a ship, as evidenced by those set of tweets, all from the same user. You can break a computer box but you can't break the will of a man, indeed.
• Harsher in Hindsight: Ramonda's reservations about A.I. become this when the months following this film's release saw A.I. programs such as ChatGPT explode in popularity, which led to concerns about A.I. taking over jobs meant for humans, and the use of A.I. for artistic purposes became one of the key issues in the 2023 Hollywood strikes.
• I Knew It!:
  • Prior to the film's first trailer, there was heavy speculation that Namor would appear as the antagonist, given his status as a fellow king and his history with T'Challa in the comics (not to mention Okoye's mention of an underground earthquake in Avengers: Endgame). The first trailer confirmed he would indeed be appearing.
  • Shuri becoming the new Black Panther was one of the most popular theories heading into the film.
• Improved Second Attempt:
  • Namor in the comics was notorious for being a bit of a sex pest, engaging in predatory behavior such as trying to seduce married women, amongst other unsavory things that creeped people out. This film significantly downplays any sexual tension between Namor and Shuri, in exchange for emphasizing his pride and noble, yet vengeful personality when provoked.
  • Riri Williams is quite the divisive character in the comics thanks to many factors, including her out-of-nowhere introduction as Tony Stark's perfect successor, with an abrasive and selfish personality viewed as unbecoming of being a superhero, all aspects either toned down or completely removed from the film version; she has no enforced connection to Tony, is depicted as an reasonably intelligent teen rather than the saintlike supergenius the comics wanted us to view her as, isn't a one-girl Spotlight-Stealing Squad, and displays a much more pleasant attitude overall.
• Jerkass Woobie: While some view Ramonda discharging Okoye from the Dora Milaje and having Nakia infiltrate Talokan and kill one of its inhabitants behind Namor's back to rescue Shuri as rash overreactions, and her death at his hands to be the logical consequence of such a flagrant Nice Job Breaking It, Hero action, she's clearly still grieving the deaths of her husband and son and possibly now her daughter, so it's difficult not to sympathize with her nonetheless.
• Just Here for Godzilla: Some fans, especially those who don't care for the idea of a Black Panther film with no T'Challa, are more interested in seeing the movie for Namor's live action debut.
• Magnificent Bastard: Namor, the sovereign ruler of the underwater kingdom of Talokan, is a mutant worshiped as a god. Disgusted by the cruelties of the surface world, Namor resolved to protect his kingdom and people even if it meant invading the surface. When an American crew attempts to harvest vibranium in an underwater deposit, Namor kills them leading to Wakanda being accused of the terrorist attack. Electing to execute Riri Williams for her invention, Namor effortlessly bypasses Wakanda's security system to make an ultimatum with Shuri and Queen Ramonda. Despite his willingness to provoke a war between Talokan and Wakanda, Namor expresses genuine respect for Shuri even consoling her over the loss of her brother and ends the film in triumph revealing that his surrender was a calculated move to push Wakanda into a corner so that when the time came, Wakanda would be forced to ally with him.
• Memetic Mutation:
  • It's definitely a spoiler that the movie will result in people crying.^ExplanationWith the amount of emotion generated by the character deaths within the movie as well as the impact on Shuri, expect crying in the movie. This came in many forms - even in the spoilers without context meme
  • "Release the Bulge Cut!"^ExplanationFans have compared trailer scenes with the finished movie and noticed that Disney edited out Namor's notable bulge from his shorts, causing fans to jokingly (?) demand the movie be re-released with his, uh, submariner intact. Mind you, Tenoch Huerta himself hated how the "shame shorts" left little to the imagination.
  • "His people do not call him general or king, they call him K'uk'ulkan; the feathered serpent god."^ExplanationM'Baku is explaining to the Wakandan council why killing Namor would likely result in a forever war. But Winston Duke's enunciation of K'ulk'ulkan caused the aforementioned line of dialogue to become a trend online.
• Moe: Take all the good, bright-eyed light of T'Challa. And add all the good and love from Nakia. Their son, Toussaint/T'Challa II, is as warm and adorable as you would expect a child of these two characters who manages to be a bright light even in the face of the film's Bittersweet Ending and all the tragedy that has followed his family (and his father's now passed actor).
• Misblamed: Many people suspected that the subplot regarding Valentina Allegra de Fontaine and the CIA was forced into this story by higher-ups at Marvel Studios, due to her role setting up the Thunderbolts was hinted at in two previous installments, in contrast to her role here feeling unrelated and very out-of-place with the rest of the film. In truth, Val was planned to be in this film far before she was ever considered to appear in Black Widow and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier; she was also originally going to be a significantly larger part of the movie (which would presumably have helped her feel less shoehorned in), but Ryan Coogler ended up greatly reducing her role to give the main characters time to properly grieve T'Challa's death.
• Moral Event Horizon: While he's established as a protective monarch and has his best interest in his people, some claim Namor crosses it when he attacked Wakanda and caused many deaths, including Queen Ramonda's, in revenge for the casualties resulting Shuri's rescue, which he caused in the first place.
• Narm: For anyone fluent in Spanish, the movie's completely unnecessary justification of the name "Namor" (the nonsensical ramblings of a dying priest) is pretty funny, in a similar way to what happened in Solo.
• Older Than They Think:
  • Namor's kingdom not being named Atlantis has a few forerunners: 1. Bill Everett never intended for Namor's nation to be Atlantis, 2. The Fantastic Four (1967) saw Namor's heroic stand in Triton ruling Pacifica and 3. Marvel 1602 saw Namor, renamed Numenor, as the ruler of Bensaylum.
  • Namor having an Age Lift to be centuries old has a forerunner in the miniseries The Depths where he was portrayed as a Humanoid Abomination responsible for the fates of the Meduse in 1816 and the Titanic in 1912, or so the stories told by the submarine crew say.
  • Namor having a Race Lift has a forerunner as well in his villainous stand-in Gamma-Ray in The Fantastic Four (1967), who seemed to be East Asian prior to being mutated and even Namor's portrayal in Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes had Asian features. What is new, is portraying him as Mesoamerican.
• One-Scene Wonder: Michael B. Jordan returns as Killmonger to deliver a skin-crawling The Reason Your Family Sucks speech to Shuri in the ancestral plane. While his limited role prevents him from upstaging Namor, it's more than enough to remind viewers why he was such a memorable villain in the first film — particularly with his short reign still having lingering effects on Wakanda, including indirectly killing T'Challa.
• Padding: Certain subplots, such as everything dealing with Ross, have little to no bearing on the main story and could have been cut in the interest of time, especially since the film clocks in at a whopping 2 hours 40 minutes.
• Platonic Writing, Romantic Reading: Although Tenoch Huerta states that Namor and Shuri's interactions were meant to be completely platonic in nature, quite a few fans came away believing that the two had a great deal of Unresolved Sexual Tension going on before and even after the catastrophic events that put them at odds with each other. In an early draft, the two did have romantic tension with one another, but while their overt relationship changed after rewrites, the undertones between them persisted.
• Portmanteau Ship Name:
  • Namor/Shuri is commonly referred to as "Namuri".
  • Riri/Shuri is usually called "ShuRiri".
• Rooting for the Empire: Given that Namor is an Anti-Villain and his Talokan civilization is really cool, it can be easy to start rooting for his side during the epic battle sequences.
• Salvaged Story:
  • While not hated by any means, some people weren't entirely happy with Everett Ross getting very involved in the first Black Panther film despite being a massive Fish out of Water who had a rather flimsy reason to be in Wakanda at all. Here, Ross operates entirely within the U.S, and gets arrested by Valentina Allegra de Fontaine before he can contribute anything meaningful to the Wakanda-Talokan conflict. By contrast, Riri Williams has a much more justifiable reason to go to Wakanda despite also being an American, as it's the only place safe from both her home country (who wants to arrest her) and Namor (who wants to kill her).
  • Many people didn't like how the first film seemingly glorified the CIA by making Ross the one main American character who gets involved with what's happening in Wakanda despite his previously mentioned foreigner status. While Ross is still a heroic character here, it's shown that the CIA itself is very much not on Wakanda's side via its director Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, who expresses a desire to bend Wakanda to America's will, and admits that she dreams of making America's global superpower status even greater than it is already by taking all of the country's vibranium in the dubious name of national security. It doesn't help that they essentially stole a college student's invention to track Vibranium, and then immediately tries to have said student arrested once the invention catches the eye of Wakanda. Ross getting arrested by his own people is also thought to be a more truthful portrayal of a cop trying to be one of the "good ones."
  • Shuri's Plucky Comic Relief status in both the first film and Avengers: Infinity War got on some people's nerves, due to it clashing heavily with the style of both movies. Here, Shuri goes through a severe Trauma Conga Line that ultimately hardens her into a more serious and fierce character that rarely jokes around and fits in more with the reverent tone this film has.
  • A few people expressed annoyance with Marvel when they denied that Ayo had any romantic relationships with any of the Dora Milaje members, even though she canonically had a girlfriend in the comics. This film introduces the character of Aneka, who is revealed to be Ayo's love interest in this film.
  • The film lacks the constant humor and Bathos the Marvel movies are typically known for (and oftentimes criticized for), due to the more serious subject matter, feeling far more respectful to the characters.
  • Fans have criticized the MCU for killing off popular villains too early, including and especially Killmonger and Klaue from Black Panther (2018). Here, Namor lives to see another day.
• Signature Scene:
  • The council scene in which Ramonda fires Okoye from the Dora Milaje, particularly Ramonda's now-iconic rant from the teaser trailer, for being a powerhouse of a performance from Angela Bassett that sums up so much of the turmoil in front of and behind the camera for the film. The scene also firmly placed Bassett on many people's lists as an Academy Award hopeful for her performance.
  • Killmonger's appearance in the Ancestral Plane for bringing back arguably the most popular character from Black Panther besides T'Challa himself, and for being another acting powerhouse scene from Michael B. Jordan and Letitia Wright.
  • Shuri making her debut as the new Black Panther, hailed by M'Baku and the rest of the Elders of Wakanda. The emotional catharsis of the scene showing the Black Panther line continuing after everyone feeling it was lost reflects many real-life sentiments and showed that the franchise can and will be able to move on after the loss of Chadwick Boseman.
• Special Effect Failure: The visual effects used for Riri's Ironheart suit and the Midnight Angels' armor have been criticized for looking rather unpolished, especially in comparison to the costume done using practical effects.
• Spiritual Successor: Shuri and Namor's initial relationship can be described as tense but diplomatic, then admiring—at least before the actions of their subjects put their countries on the warpath (involving the death of at least one of their relatives). In essence, the relationship is comparable to the fallout between the Aquaman and Wonder Woman of DC's Flashpoint timeline (and its adaptation)—only with less Woman Scorned involved (replaced by more grounded Realpolitik both inside and outside the warring kingdoms).
  • It can also be read as an adaptation of Beauty and the Beast, considering the heroine offers herself as a hostage to a mysterious not-quite-human misanthropic man in place of someone else. The Disney film is referenced within the movie.
• Tainted by the Preview: Once the trailers confirmed that in light of the passing of T'Challa's actor Chadwick Boseman, The Character Died with Him, many Black Panther fans (especially those associated with the #RecastTChalla movement) expressed feelings of frustration that the film couldn't have worked around Boseman's absence without seemingly permanently killing this version of the character off.
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:
  • Namora and Attuma are given very little to do in the film besides be named Co-Dragons. Attuma at least gets a cool Worthy Opponent dynamic going on with Okoye, but overall neither he nor Namora are given much personality, nor are they given much development of their dynamic with Namor.
  • Aneka is given barely any screen time, and her relationship with Ayo is reduced to one kiss (which was deleted for the film's release in Kuwait).
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: Okoye and Aneka becoming the Midnight Angels (a storyline from the comics worthy of a movie itself) receives a lot of buildup but has very little impact on the final battle, as the Wakandans were losing the fight anyway until Shuri and Namor announced their truce.
• Trapped by Mountain Lions: Everett Ross's only plot-relevant moment is when he informs Shuri and Okoye about Riri Williams. After that, all of his scenes consist of him reacting to the events unfolding and his complicated relationship with Valentina, which hint that the CIA will actively interfere in Wakandan politics, but nothing comes of this subplot.
• Unexpected Character:
  • Ironheart making her MCU debut in this movie caught a few people off guard.
  • While it was guessed Namor would be appearing, fewer guessed that both Attuma and Namora would also be showing up along with him.
  • Fans were surprised to hear Michaela Coel was playing Aneka, Ayo's girlfriend from the comics, rather than Storm of the X-Men as some guessed.
  • Nobody was expecting Contessa Valentina de Fontaine to appear two years before the upcoming Thunderbolts film, much less in anything Black Panther related. Furthermore, the reveal that she's both the director of the CIA and Everett Ross's ex-wife was very surprising for fans.
  • Killmonger's reappearance in the Ancestral Plane served as an unexpected, yet pleasant surprise.
• Visual Effects of Awesome: The Maya-inspired Talokan is breathtaking, with visual effects almost on par with that of Avatar: The Way of Water.
• The Woobie: Poor Shuri gets put through the wringer in this film. She loses her entire family, even after desperately trying to to save both her brother and mother, and is forced to become the new Black Panther and stop Namor from waging war on the surface. Even worse, she now has to deal with being a leader of a nation that is currently on bad terms with the rest of the world at such a young age, without the help of Wakanda's close mutual allies in the global superhero community for the immediate future due to the disbandment of the Avengers. It's no wonder it's implied that she leaves the reins to the throne to M'Baku at the end.

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