The Axis and HYDRA winning or won WWII and HYDRA Steve being his true self is just part of Kobik changing history.
- It is unlikely that they would go down this path of the revelation due to the implications of what it means to the Marvel Universe. it will be undone with HYDRA Steve and it would be revealed as more of just false memories in Steve's head to explain why he hasn't been active since after Pleasant Hill. after the backlash of HYDRA Steve it would be unlikely they would do this without it being retconned away.
- I thought that was common knowledge? The second part, I mean. HYDRA Steve explicitly says he wishes to do the first one.
Madam HYDRA is the real Big Bad.
- it will be revealed Elisa was helping the Red Skull raise Kobik and she had more influence in raising her than the Red Skull did. She convinced her to put her as Steve's primary mentor in his new memories to help her vision of HYDRA. She would have Kobik restore her own personal youth and made it part of the memories that the Allies had to cheat to win the war.
Is Elisa Sinclair really a Kobik creation?
- A bunch of the arguments as to why Hydra Steve could not be the real Steve are based on Kobik creating Elisa Sinclair, something there's no real evidence for in the first place — furthermore, if Kobik was raised by Red Skull, and Kobik created this fake narrative for Hydra Steve to exist, then why would she create Elisa Sinclair, which stands opposite to what Red Skull is?
- perhaps she created her and put her in the Universe or she learned about him in the books the Skull read to her.
- But if she was created, then she also had to have altered the rest of Hydra to accept Elisa Sinclair, because otherwise, they would go "and who the fuck is this new Madame Hydra?"
- She could still be someone who really existed but had met Kobik before so she put her in Steve's memories. See my previous WMG.
- perhaps she created her and put her in the Universe or she learned about him in the books the Skull read to her.
Hydra Cap is actually William Burnside
- He might seem crazy enough to join them to give his idol a bad name, both in universe and out.
Hydra Cap is really Crazy Steve.
- When Kobik restored Steve Rogers, she accidentally transferred the personality of Crazy Steve from another universe into Steve Rogers. How else could he kill Jack Flag, manipulate circumstances so Hawkeye kills Banner and Captain Marvel puts Iron Man in a coma, and sentence Bucky Barnes, Rick Jones, and Agent Phil Coulson to death with not even a hint of remorse?
The HYDRA ruled US in the first issue
will be undone.- By use of the Cosmic Cube or time travel, it will be changed so HYDRA's takeover will not have happened. If by time travel it will be too the events of the 0th issue.
Bucky Barnes
will be brought back to life via the Cosmic Cube.- That, or he will be revealed as a clone/LMD/Evil Twin.
- Both jossed, was Faking the Dead all along.
Due to her psychic powers, Elisa Sinclair/Madame HYDRA can see, and influence, different possible realities.
- She became aware of Red Skull meddling with Captain America's timeline through Kobik, and saw that she could use him to finally bring HYDRA to power. She inserted herself in Steve's life and influenced him to view HYDRA as a force for the good of mankind and see Red Skull as dangerous to their cause. When she realized the HYDRA timeline would be destroyed - not through the allies building a cosmic cube, but through Kobik throwing a temper tantrum when Bucky Barnes refused her attempts to make him join HYDRA in 1945 - she deviced a plan to have Steve believe that his HYDRA past was the original, not the rewritten one. It's all an attempt to have the reality where Steve was HYDRA become the dominant one, instead of an offshot timeline that was quickly discarded.
Jack Flag, Bucky Barnes, Rick Jones, and Agent Coulson
will stay dead.- And this means they will STAY dead. Yes, heroes have come back before but Rick is full of more holes than Swiss Cheese, Deadpool made sure that Phil was actually dead, Jack succumbed to his injuries, and Cap and Zemo made sure that Bucky was actually tied up to the bomb this time, insuring he'd lose more than just an arm. This story is supposed to have lasting consequences and while it looks like Cap's HYDRA-fication will be undone, what could be more lasting then Classic!Cap having to struggle with being morally complacent in the permanent deaths of three of his friends and his biggest fan?
- Except A) Rick Jones has died before and B) Death owes Rick's wife Marlo a favor. Honestly, because of his connections, there's a 1,001 ways to bring back Rick Jones. Hell, when Bruce Banner returns, Rick probably won't be far behind. Rick is Bruce's best friend and his death doesn't feel real without Bruce and the rest of the Hulk cast mourning him.
- As for Bucky, there's no body and that usually means the character isn't dead. He's already back before the series is over.
- In Coulson's case, considering his MCU counterpart's defining trait being his inability to stay dead, that might very well likely be the case here for Comics!Phil.
The Punisher
is a double agent.- Think about it? Who better to work for the Resistance from the inside then the one character who is already morally dubious? Think about it, Nat, Clint, Tony, Sam, and Bucky wouldn't be able to trick Steve, as he knows them, and their strengths and weaknesses, too well. Frank Castle on the other hand...
The next character Cap will have killed off will be...
- Natasha Romanov-Despite her resolve, it's been well noted that if she gets too "close" to an assignment, she'll be compromised. It was part of the reason why the KGB split up her and Winter Soldier. She and Cap have been friends for years. She won't be able to pull the trigger and Cap will have her executed for her crime.
- Confirmed. It was her.
- Sharon Carter-He'll put her in the same place as Rick Jones. Like Rick she won't surrender. Then after she's shot, Steve will admit, "never the less, she persisted."
- Doctor Faustus offered to brainwash her into loyalty, but having carried the trauma of him forcing her to shoot Steve dead way back, she managed to find a way not to be swayed by him again, and so she played along until the right time to take him out of the picture.
- Maria Hill
- Clint Barton- As he dies Steve will say, "I never knew why we let you be an Avenger in the first place."
- Peter Parker- When asked by Steve if he has any last words, Peter will repeat Steve's classic "No, you move" speech.
The Prosperity of HYDRA!America is all a lie and when revealed will signal the 'Beginning of the End' for HYDRA
Lets face it, the fact that the economy is booming, jobs and wages are up and everything is looking all shiny and good, to the point where the common man believes that anything bad about HYDRA/Cap has GOT to be a lie closely mirrors the common perception of WW2 in Germany, where other countries sacrificed for the war, Germany did not until later in the war. Eventually this will be shown as a lie or the whole HYDRA economy is a huge pyramid scheme that eventually collapses. Cuz lets face it you can't cut off one of the largest financial centers in the World (Manhattan Island) and expect everything to be not only fine but BOOMING a few months later? Nope somebody is cooking America's books and the reveal will NOT be pretty. It's all Chthon's fault
This is just another of his crazy plans to take out the Avengers so he can manifest on Earth and end humanity once and for all. This explains why he's willing to have possessed Scarlet Witch play lackey to Hydra, when he's an Elder God and they're a conspiracy of a few millennia at best.- Or maybe he's just going along for the ride, because he's assured there'll be a place for him in the Villain World HYDRA is willing to build.
Zemo Will Turn on Steve
A key shift is going to be later when Zemo suddenly strikes at Steve to reveal he's been secretly plotting a coup to take over Hydra himself. During the fight, Steve will demand how he can do this after all they've been through and Zemo snorts that he never bought Steve's claims of "we were best friends and the Cube changed all that." He's known it's all some delusion in Steve's mind and was just playing along because it got him the power he'd long wanted. He fires back that the real HYDRA has always been about conquest, never the "noble crusade" Steve thought it was. It will also tie in to the above theory of Zemo stating the "prosperity" of America is all a major scam and the darker moves of the empire have been his doing but folks blame Cap for it. This will be the first crack in Steve starting to doubt how "real" his memories are and lead to his getting back to normal.- If his reaction to Black Panther's Breaking Speech in #9 is anything to go by, then this would be probably Jossed.
It Will Be Fixed...With a Catch
In the big final battle, Kobik will realize she was wrong and sacrifice herself in an explosion of energy. Suddenly, Steve will find himself over a beaten, but alive, Red Skull with the heroes (including Bucky, Rick Jones and Phil Coulson) congratulating him on his job. Steve will realize that he's the only one who remembers the truth of the last few months. As far as everyone else knows, The Skull mind-controlled or replaced Steve with an imposter to instigate HYDRA's takeover of America. Steve only just broke free to lead the resistance to stop him. Thus, Cap's legacy and trust are intact...but Steve himself has to handle the memories of what he did and it will drive him further to redeem himself for crimes only he knows he committed. The Bruce Banner seen at the end of issue #5 is a clone.
- Dialog between Cap and Zola would seem to suggest Clone Degeneration.
- Jossed: Intro text to issue #6 describes Bruce as "temporarily revived."
Captain America will be defeated by Ultimate Captain America
- The beloved team is back, in The Ultimates (2015) #100 (set in the prime universe, not the Ultimate one), so why not? Ultimate cap surely will not take it lightly that an alternate version of himself has turned the US into a pastiche of Nazi Germany. Sure, it's not "his" US, but it's still the US, The Constant in his life (he had already been through that when we woke up so many years in the future since WWII). The fight should even include a rehash of the Moment of Awesome of the first Ultimates arc. "Surrender? SURRENDER???!! YOU THINK THIS LETTER ON MY HEAD STANDS FOR FRANCE?
◊"- Even more, if Cap simply gets back to normal and everything returns to the status quo, there will be loads and loads of angst, and complains about his Karma Houdini. Ultimate Cap killing him and replacing him as "the" Captain America will prevent all of that.
- But didn't most of the Ultimate Universe people die with the last Incursion before Secret Wars? Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that, aside from Miles Morales and his family and friends, everyone else from the 1610 is dead.
- First Law of Resurrection: you can't kill characters who are so cool, because some future writer will bring them back. It does not matter how did they die. Even if a whole universe was destroyed with them in it, someway, somehow, they will return. The Ultimates can't be less than Starlord, after all. In any case, their return is not speculation, the All-Old Ultimates are already back, in the last pages of Ultimates 9. The details of their return, and what will they do now... that's something we will find out in the next issue, and in the meantime, they are game for WMG.
- But doesn't the rule about not being able to kill cool characters... require the character to be cool and liked? Yeah, not Ultimate Cap at all.
- Touché. Plus, Thunderstrike was a cool character who sold well, and Marvel killed him anyway because he was drawing people away from The Clone Saga.
- Lots of people like Ultimate Cap. But this whole thing has been jossed by 1: his death in the last issue of Ultimates Squared and 2: things Mark Waid has said about his upcoming "Home of the Brave" arc.
Regarding the other, bearded Steve Rogers
- Seeing as no one threw this out here, I'll just go out on a limb and say that he's Steve's consciousness fighting through the rewrite of his mind, which would explain how he was seen talking to Sam and Bucky - more than his sidekicks, they would also serve as moral anchors to Steve's mind here - and the Red Skull torturing him - that would be the memory rewrite asserting its strength and trying to prevent Steve from fighting back (remember that Kobik only believed Hydra to be good because the Red Skull manipulated her). Steve recognizing the lady in white as Sharon could be another hint.
- In the conversation he and Kobik have in #9, though, he says they're actually in her mind. What lends it credence is how they walk through the ruins of Pleasant Hill, and later she shows him the things he's done since she rejuvented him, and he's horrified. Which means they may actually be trapped in the shattered Cosmic Cube that is Kobik's physical being - note how she panics and runs off just before Arnim Zola installs the partially-reassembled Cube in the arc reactor of the Iron Man armor Cap wears to battle the heroes. So, I'm guessing the final issue will show him retaking the driver's seat from inside the Cube while the battle is raging.
- And in #10, Kobik makes memory Steve real... but Hydra Cap is still around too. Apparently, she cloned him. Hydra Cap was apprehended after being defeated by the other Steve using Mjolnir.
- Sam: This doesn't belong to me. (hands shield to Steve)Steve: Neither does this. (throws hammer to Thor)Jane: Let's face it....this isn't mine either. (throws hammer to the real Thor)
- Steve: Now let's get back to business, eh, Sam? I was going to erase you from existence, and you were going to hand me that fragment of the cosmic cube in these few brief moments you have left. Let me hear you say it. "Hail, Hydra. I surrender, Steve. Make it quick!"Sam: Surrender? SURRENDER??!! YOU THINK THIS STAR IN MY CHEST STANDS FOR "LUKE CAGE"??
- Bruce Banner: You are Hydra now, Cap? You took over the US and turned into Nazi germany? Well, THAT MAKES ME ANGRY!!!!
- Sam: It's not over 'til the fat lady singsSteve: Oh, you are still here? Poop
(At the villains Pub)
- Steve: ...and then I used the almost completed cosmic cube to summon a giant death ray, and turned Sam, Bucky and Lang into ashes.
(everybody cheers)
- Steve: By the way, you are all under arrest.
- Amanda Waller: So, Mr. Wilson, you have been detained for the crimes you commited following Captain America's orders.Deadpool: Has anybody ever said that about... oh, screw it.Waller: But, because of your unique talents, you have been recruited for a black operations team. We call it "Suicide squad".Deadpool: Oh great! And who will send me to those suicidal missions? You?Phil Coulson: No. Me. Sorry, this corner was really dark and I couldn't help myself.
(But this is how it really should have ended)
- Tony Stark: Are you being serious? Just a cube fragment, and it can wake up quasar, destroy the shield around earth, take down the darkforce shield around New York, and bring Namor with Bucky still alive? Why don't you fix Captain America with it, resurrect everyone and clean all the damage, now that you're at it?Sam: Well, OK.
(in the cafe)
- Steve: And so, the cube fixed everything, and we had a happy ending. Ta-daa.Superman: Really: Just that easy? What a cop out, man! You did so many horrible things, and get away scott free with a reality warping toy? I mean, I was mind controlled once, just beated Batman to a pulp, and everyone was mad at me! And I did not try to excuse myself with that bullshit!Batman: You can't make mistakes like that. You're too dangerous.Superman: Oh, SORRY, Mr. Perfection, but you let Jean Paul Valley became a destructive Batman, and nobody was mind-controllig you!Batman: Yes, but I can get away with those things. BECAUSE I'M BATMAN!Steve: Eh, guys? We were talking about me. I can't be blamed, I was not myself.Cyclops: I was not myself when I killed Xavier!Scarlet Witch: I was not myself when I depowered all mutants!Henry Pym: I was not myself when I slapped Jan!Everybody: THAT'S A LIE, PYM!!!Pym: At least I did not attack her with a mighty shield, if you know what I mean.Steve: What, again that?Superman: When Captain America throws his mighty shield...Batman: All those who chose to oppose his shield must yield...Superman: So, unless you are another Cap...Kubik: Or the spirit of a cosmic cube...Jane: Or a Viking hammer...Miles Morales: Or Spider-Man in a vision of doom...Everybody: ...then you don't necessarily have to yield!
