Headscratchers / Middle-earth: Shadow of War

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Problem with Shelob's precognition — SPOILERS

• So if, as the end cutscene indicates, Shelob has foreseen the events of The Lord of the Rings and knows Frodo is going to destroy the One Ring... why does she try to eat him — especially since she should foresee that doing so will result in Samwise tearing her a new one and possibly killing her?
  • Maybe Sauron Mind Raped her?
  • Perhaps because of Shelob's role in this story, what she's seen, the implication is that she won't try to eat Frodo at all in this Alternate Timeline. Sure it'll be a change from canon events, but one that won't affect the overall outcome - it's up to interpretation since we see nothing to prove/disprove either version, but it seems legit enough to consider.
  • Given that she confiscated Celebrimbor's ring in order to avert a vision she had where he managed to dominate Sauron to his own will, perhaps she wished to confiscate the One Ring from Frodo to avert a vision of Frodo's corruption and/or its retrieval by Gollum or Sauron?
  • Shelob mentioned that her powers do not allow her to clearly see the future, only fragments that can be hard to interpret. Let's add to that the fact that Frodo is by far the most unexpected hero, that the hobbits's existence is unknown even to millennia old individuals, and Shelob could have easily overlooked him as the one who would participate in the destruction of Sauron. Maybe she, like many Dark beings and mortals alike, cannot wrap her head around the idea of such a weak and simple mortal being able to play such a significant part in the War of the Ring. Being underestimated was always Frodo's best asset.
  • Word of God is that Shelob foresaw that Frodo would succumb to the One Ring's corruption and attacked him to accelerate his journey to Mt. Doom and force the final confrontation with Gollum — who unwittingly and accidentally does what Frodo himself couldn't.
• How did Shelob's visions in Act 1 help out Talion is my question regarding her precognition. We see a vision with the assassin, but nothing there actually implies the assassin being the one to murder Casimir or Idril. More so since the parts involving the General we see was with the Nazgul. Same goes for the war chief since it doesn't appear that he factors that much into the city falling since we never actually see him in the city. So what I have to ask was she actually trying to help Talion, or was distracting him long enough for the Nazgul to take the city as to somehow avert the vision where Celebrimbor takes over Sauron with Talion's help? The game implies the former while the latter actually more plausible
  • Neither is mutually exclusive. Shelob, at least to some small degree, seems genuinely interested in helping Talion, given his honest, heroic motives, even as she uses him to her own ends. He wants to save people, she wants to stop Sauron or Celebrimbor from taking full control of Mordor. Letting him run around murdering orcs in the city, and later buy the evacuation time to escape, allows Talion to do things that he believes in, while also simultaneously causing problems for Sauron, even if he does still achieve some victories. And it's quite possible that helping Talion do all these good deeds was what reinforced his moral compass just enough to stop him from going along with Celebrimdor's notion of branding Isildur, and by implication, the rest of the Nazgul, before moving up to brand Sauron himself.
  • After some pondering on this question, I think there might be a explanation for her actions. Shelob wanted Sauron dead for betraying her. In her vision while the Bright Lord defeats the Dark Lord, in the end the Dark Lord lives on as a servant of the Bright Lord. So if she was trying to get Talion to build up the good morals to not follow Calebrimbor at act 3, it wasn't because she wanted what was best for Middle Earth....Rather she wanted the timeline where the Dark Lord is killed off for good. If Celebrimbor branded Sauron and took over Middle Earth then that would no longer be possible..

What is the Light of Galadriel?

• What is the Light of Galadriel that Eltariel wields? Before someone tells me it's what Galadriel gave Frodo, that was the Phial of Galadriel. Which contained water from her fountain and light from Eärendil's star (IE: The light of a Silmaril). Eltariel's looks like a gem.
  • The light itself is probably derived from the same source as the Phial — Eärendil's star. If it is a gem, then Galadriel likely imbued it with the Silmaril's light. This also might contain some imbued power from her own Ring, Nenya.

How much of Talion's movement do other people see?

• Can Orcs see Celebrimbor? And whenever Talion double jumps, hits Orcs with Celebrimbor's bow/hammer, when Celebrimbor helps parry a second attack, etc... How much do Talion's human allies see?
  • Ranger thinks Talion is crazy when he talks to Celerimbor because he doesn't hear him so it's possible that like the Nazgûl they don't see Celebrimbor's body just and aura on Talion's clothes. Although the ones who call him Elf-lover and such shows that it's not that special for them, it's like their Mystic tribes teleportaion power or raising dead ability.
  • So, why do they see when he shoots with his bow/double jump?
    • It is possible that they see just Talion, with the bow appearing as a form of light. The Celebrimbor image of the double jump seems to just be for the purposes of the player.
    • Alternatively, they don't SEE anything besides one of theirs suddenly falling over dead as a stone, making it look like Talion is some sort of hellish magician who can fly, turn blades, and kill you dead with nothing but his mind.

What measure is a Bruz? (SPOILERS)

• While the meta reasons are somewhat understandable, needing to teach the player the effects of Shaming an Uruk or Olog, and that under certain circumstances the Uruks the player dominates will betray them, what reason do Talion and Celebrimbor have for denying Bruz the position of Overlord in Nurnen? Sure, he has an argument with Ratbag, but what difference does that make, especially when neither Talion nor Celebrimbor were overly fond of Ratbag in the first place? Furthermore, Bruz hadn’t given either of them any real reason to doubt HIS loyalty, so it seems a little counterintuitive to give the title to any other Uruk or Olog, even if neither Celebrimbor nor Talion value them as anything other than a very expendable means to an end. If anything, wouldn’t letting Bruz have the position serve as an example of how Talion rewards loyalty and give the Uruks and Ologs even more incentive to remain loyal to him?
  • Talion mentions before confronting the overlord that Brûz worries him given how ferocious he is in battle and he really doesn't want to side if Ranger and Brûz ends up duking it out. Plus as Brûz said you have to be dongo to trust an orc so them seeing Talion rewarding them like that is more a sign of gullibility than anything. Plus Brûz is funny and all but he acts like too much of a doofus for Talion and Celebrimbor to use him as anything but muscles, while if he makes him overlord he won't be helping much in fight.
  • Then again being Muscle is Orc society in general, and with Bruz's love of popping heads he could keep any nonbranded Orc in check easier than any orc we got. Not to mention it doesn't stop Talion from putting a guy who talks only in screams in the Overlord position. Not to mention he came in with the intent of fighting the Overlord and nether Ranger or Ratbag were branded so he could just go that to keep them in check, since neither Talion nor Celebrimbor knew that the branding power weakened yet. Not to mention they bring up Bruz's potential and and strong he would be. Why wouldn't you want your greatest follower be the Overlord of a region.
  • He still have to fight Ranger before branding him, which is a waste of time just to have the only branded captain that doesn't completely follow orders as Overlord, the screamer becomes your bodyguard or your traitor without bitching unlike Brûz so it doesn't matter how he acts but Brûz doesn't show much subservience even after he is branded.
  • Original poster here: It’s not really a matter of trust so much as it is meant to, again, be used as an incentive. You’d definitely have to have been born stupid to trust ANYONE who’s allied with/serves Sauron, much less an Orc/Uruk/Olog. Both Ranger and Ratbag are visibly disgusted and even a little disturbed by what Celembrimbor does to Bruz at the end of his questline, so it shouldn’t be out of the question for them, and any other Uruk or Olog, to have the same reaction to Talion/Celembrimbor Mind Rape (ing) any of the other recruitable captains.
  • It's an incentive for one captain only while all the others feel shafted, the orcs don't care that much about each other unless they are blood brothers and they aren't dumb enough to ignore there is not enough fortresses for everyone. Mind rape disturbs orcs which is good because that's how most overlords and Sauron keep them in line, by being more powerful and ruthless than them.
  • Different user. Realistically, there is no incentive not to give it to Bruz. Talion isn't invested in Ratbag or Ranger, and Bruz has been a valuable asset up until that point. He's capable, competent, smart, and eager to please. And like you said, rewarding Bruz would make it clear to Talion's army that he rewards ability and loyalty. At the end of the day it's just game mechanics getting in the way of writing, which happens a lot in So W.
    • I think Talion actually has a decent reason to trust - for lack of a better word - Ratbag: until he saw him alive, he had every reason to believe he'd died carrying out their plot. That's a pretty strong argument for rewarding someone. But yeah, it was kind of stupid to pass over Bruz for no apparent reason.
  • I think it could've been explained better, but if you review the cutscene, you notice that a) Bruz followed Talion into the keep and b) he declared himself overlord, rather than waiting for Talion to officially appoint him. Bruz was getting too uppity for Talion's liking, and Talion decided to punish him by denying him the position.

Strike me and there will be war, even though it didn't happen when I did the same to you.

When Helms Hammerhand comes back as a Nazgul to get revenge on the Dunlending bastard who took his daughter, the guy tries to plead him to stop by saying "Kill me, and you will start a war." The guy literally ambushed the guy, leaving him near dead, then abducted his daughter, wouldn't that already be grounds for a war? Wtf, is he stupid or does he have a strong case of Moral Myopia ? And why did Helm's daughter try to stop him and so concerned over the fate of the man who abducted her after almost killing her father?

• A war won't start since he convinced the daughter not to start one and the guy was dying so people would have no choice but to fall in, the other guy seems young enough he might have a father in charge of the kingdom or something coming back for retribution.
• Given that the memories are rather fragmented it’s likely Talion never got the full picture on what really went down and why. And given that the memories are from a servant of Sauron, and of a man whom he hated, it’s also possible that the memories he did see aren’t the complete truth either. It’s just as likely that the Dunlending and Helm’s daughter genuinely loved one another (they certainly seemed to) and the Dunlending was trying to foster peace between their people in any way he could. Threatening retribution was likely just a last ditch attempt, which ultimately failed. Sauron himself should also be taken into consideration, since anyone who’s familiar with the Fall of Numenor knows he doesn’t need a Ring to influence a King of Men, and it’s highly doubtful he didn’t play some part in everything that happened prior to Helm’s death.
  • Just a factual note: Sauron actually did have the One Ring during his time in Númenor (which says a lot about Ar-Pharazôn's army that they were able to overawe Sauron's troops while he was wearing the thing). As for how his disembodied spirit was able to take the physical Ring back to Middle-earth after he drowned during the Downfall, Tolkien made a (rather weak, IMO) statement that we should expect that spirits are capable of doing this sort of thing in universes like Arda.
• I always interpreted the scene (and the situation) as a sort of Realpolitik, a kind of high-stakes game of chicken not unlike what real-world nations do to each other all the time (Nation A pokes Nation B in the eye and threatens retribution if Nation B retaliates, hoping that the threat will protect it from any repercussions from Nation B). It helps to remember that the original plan was to kill Helm, and it looks like it would've worked perfectly had "Annatar" not intervened, so Siric didn't have a Plan B and was grasping at straws when Helm showed up at his doorstep. BTW, not sure where all this talk of Siric being a Dunlending came from, but it's not actually mentioned in the game proper, not even in the Appendices.

Tar-Goroth's inadequate prison

• Tar-Goroth eventually ends up frozen in a lake during the Carnan questline but what happens when summer arrives and the ice melts?
  • I assume Carnan permanently froze the land with her control over nature.
  • That might not be necessary as the land may be in a permafrost location.
  • Tar-Goroth was killed in the fight that left him under the ice. Zog wanted to reanimate him as a thrall, which would have given him complete control over an undead major demon!

Talion's trusting nature

• Why did Talion go so deep on Shelob's cuddlevisions? I mean, she's a giant spider that was torturing the ghost that was keeping him alive, but as soon as she gives him a hug he's all for her.
  • Talion didn’t seem to have any idea who Shelob really was and Celebrimbor either wasn’t keen on revealing her parentage (which is important since her mother Ungoliant was a one time ally with Morgoth, Sauron’s master) for some reason, or was undecided on where her loyalties truly lay. Or, more likely, feared that she would reveal Celebrimbor’s true goal and motives to Talion, and was trying in his own subtle way to keep Talion on his side. Either way, she didn’t give Talion any real reason not to trust her, as she did keep her end of their bargain and her visions, while imperfect, did end up coming true. Against the likes of Sauron and being so far from anyone else who could offer any help, she simply continued proving to be an invaluable ally for Talion.
    • There is actually a throwaway line (I believe it plays after recovering one of the Shelob memories) where Celebrimbor mentions that Ungoliant is Shelob's mother.
  • In addition, Talion was single-minded in his desire to save the Gondorians — Celebrimbor was dismissive of them, while Shelob showed she was willing to help him in that regard.
  • It wasn't just a hug, it was a vision of the future. And not just a vision, but an accurate one (during the first quest, Talion remarks, "This is just like in Shelob's vision!"). Shelob's precognitive abilities were a huge reason for Talion to overlook any misgivings he might've had about her previous actions (at least for the time being), particularly since there was a war going on and Talion needed every ally(-ish) he could get his hands on. This second point also hit a nerve for Talion, since he was desperate to not have the Minas Ithil situation turn into a repeat of the Black Gate, so he was that much more keen to exploit any advantage that presented itself. It's also worth noting that Talion seems to have been completely clueless about the assault on Minas Ithil until Shelob pointed him in that direction (otherwise he almost certainly would've halted creation of the New Ring and rushed off to help them earlier, before they were on their last legs), and that probably shook him deeply.

Our Wraiths are Different... from each other

• I've long wondered why Celebrimbor needed Talion's body to operate in the physical world, while other "wraiths", like the Nazgûl, don't. At first I could justify it by saying the Ringwraiths had their own Rings to give them physical form, but this game seems to confirm that Celebrimbor still needs a human host after he acquires his own ring. What gives?
  • I imagine the difference is this: the Nazgûl, by all indications, still had their physical bodies after being given the Rings. This includes Isildur, who while dead at the time, his body remained intact when Sauron got to him; the Rings simply maintain the bodies they already have, and remakes them upon being dispelled due to Sauron's power. Yet while Celebrimbor's spirit endured, by the time Talion entered the picture, his original body had long since become worm-food... so while he can have a physical presence like the Nazgûl, and concentrate his power in the New Ring, he still needs an outsider's body to do these things in the first place.
  • This. Also, it's worth noting that Celebrimbor's body was severely damaged by Sauron when he killed him as shown in Mordor, and while Sauron wanted the Nazgûl's bodies intact, he very much did not want Celebrimbor's body intact. On a more general note, you could also chalk this up to meta-physiological differences between Men and Elves.

The New Ring does...what, exactly?

• Much is made of Celebrimbor's ring, but what good is it, exactly? It has the power to dominate orcs...unless they choose not to be dominated, as is the case with Bruz. Perhaps only an orc of sufficient willpower can overcome the New Ring, but how is that any different from Orc society in general, where the strong dominate until a more powerful or cunning orc overthrows them? If anything, the ring just creates a false sense of security by making Talion put his faith in orcs he would otherwise mistrust and be wary of.
  • Who said that it was different? Followers and Nemeses occupy the same Army screen. Sauron and Talion both lead armies that are too scared of (and possibly loyal to) them to rebel. The main difference is that Talion is way weaker than Sauron, which causes (relatively) more orcs to think about betraying him. Even in Sauron's camp, orcs only follow him until they think they stand a chance of breaking away (see Zog the Eternal). As for the original question: a) The New Ring grants Talion (and later Eltariel) Resurrective Immortality; in Talion's case, while he can be overthrown, you know he'll be back like the Terminator, and plenty of orcs know this as well. b) Where do you think all those endless hordes of grunts come from during sieges? Or why, unlike captains, grunts (and beasts) never betray Talion?
  • One difference between branding and the ring is that Talion doesn't have to be physically present to command his orcs. This is probably both its strength and weakness. This mode of commanding gives Talion more flexibility but it also makes him more hands off. While when all he could do was brand orcs he redominated them every time he gave a command.

The Gondorians and the Forts

• By the end of Act 2, Talion has control of four fully stocked fortresses, and their defense is a frequent issue... Yet at no point does he decide to go and offer Idril, Baranor, and their forces sanctuary in exchange for helping defend his position. Not even in Act 4, where he could even offer them their city back and is in dire need of help to defend all of Sauron's attacks on his holdings.
  • He likely knew he couldn't fight his Ring's influence forever, and didn't want his former allies anywhere near him once he finally succumbed.