Headscratchers / Harry Potter And The Order Of The Phoenix The Prophecy

If you want a job done right, you've gotta do it yourself...

• Why didn't Voldemort just come to get the prophecy himself? It would have taken a few seconds: apparate in, grab the prophecy, apparate out. If he did it at night, he wouldn't even have to worry about being seen because the Ministry hasn't ever heard of nighttime security guards. Instead, he had to trick Harry into coming and getting it. Of course, dozens of Death Eaters (including prison escapees) don't look suspicious at all. Nope, nothing at all suspicious about a massive battle in the Ministry of Magic itself.
  • Wasn't it stated that only whoever the prophecy was made about could retrieve it? Meaning that Harry (and only Harry) could pick it up from the shelf?
  • Doesn't work - the prophecy's card had "S. some initial T. to A.P.W.B.D, Dark Lord and (?) Harry Potter" on it. Both the Dark Lord and Harry were named on it, ergo, either could pick it up. The stated explanation is that people are much less likely to notice a few kids than they are to notice the evil Dark Wizard who they all think is still dead.
  • Did "Dark Lord" even count as being named? Since it appears to be the title card and not the actual prophecy that matters. If he was called Dark Lord or Voldemort instead of Tom Marvolo Riddle (or Tom Riddle instead of Voldemort, if he'd Become The Mask), it probably shouldn't count as having been named. So it was only Harry anyway, despite the prophecy not actually naming him, and being nearly as much about Neville.
  • For that matter, Voldemort is more conclusively named in the prophecy than Harry! There were two potential "Chosen Ones," remember?
  • The "Some Initial" is likely "P.", since Sybil Patricia Trelawney (according to Word of God on her name) told the prophecy to Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore, regarding the Dark Lord and Harry Potter. Harry is mentioned by name, and there's only one Dark Lord associated with him.
  • Yes, but there's only one actual Chosen One. The moment Harry got his scar, his mark of being Voldemort's equal, that was it. Neville was out of the running. As for whether "Dark Lord" counts as being named, while the fact that Voldemort went to Hogwarts was common knowledge, the fact that Voldemort was Tom Riddle was not exactly a secret, but not exactly common knowledge either. It was a big surprise to everyone except Dumbledore when Tom was revealed to be Voldemort in CoS. And while Dumbledore might have told the Ministry, he might also have decided not to say anything - the Ministry doesn't exactly have a great track record for believing Dumbledore about things Voldemort-related, so the idea that Voldemort, champion of the purebloods, was actually a half-blood orphan would probably be dismissed as ridiculous (and you can see their point - the idea of a half-blood leading the purebloods to victory over his fellow half-bloods and Muggleborns is kind of illogical, not to mention self-destructive; after all how would the purebloods react if, after they'd won, it came out that their leader was technically on the other team), and we do have precedent for Dumbledore keeping important info close to his chest. And the Ministry's not going to put Voldemort on the orb because that would mean actually writing the word Voldemort out - something that 99% of wizards are too scared to do.
  • A more clear and concise explanation: Two Choosable Ones, one Chosen One.
  • Pretty sure Harry already asked that, and Bellatrix already told him that Voldemort didn't want to risk exposing himself too early, since Fudge did Voldemort the courtesy of ignoring and covering up his return.
  • But doesn't that completely defeat the purpose if he's just going to send his Death Eaters in anyway right after Harry grabs it? It wasn't the presence of the Death Eaters that drew attention, it was the fact that a good chunk of that section of the Ministry got destroyed in the ensuing fight. If he'd just quietly snuck in himself, grabbed the prophecy, and snuck back out again, the theft likely would have gone completely unnoticed.
  • Voldemort assumed only Harry would show up. Hardly a battle if it's one 15-year-old kid against a small group of Death Eaters. The battle happened because Luna, Neville, Hermione, Ginny and Ron all decided to come with.
  • As discussed elsewhere, Voldemort is clutching a particularly large Idiot Ball if he actually bases his entire plan on Harry showing up alone. Given the bait being used to lure Harry there (an Order of the Phoenix member Voledmort allegedly personally tortures to death), he should have no rational expectation for Harry not to show up accompanied by all the reinforcements Harry could possibly find, possibly including Dumbledore himself. And indeed the entire Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore do show up, as soon as the news reaches them (however unaccountably slowly that news traveled).
  • Voldemort is a Dark Lord. He doesn't do menial tasks like this. He's got bitches for that.
  • The characterd noted the absence of nighttime security guards as odd; the manpower probably came in handy to get them out of the way. And Voldemort can be forgiven for thinking that those numbers would intimidate six teenagers (or three, by his intelligence) into handing over the prophecy. The Death Eaters, moreover, concealed their faces; Fudge policy would find some way to explain it, but there's no getting around the seven-foot-tall skeletal figure. Don't suppose he could Polyjuice, either (only one-eighth human, after all), or he would Polyjuice Bathilda instead of resorting to Inferi.
  • So he couldn't just kill any guards that saw him in the space of a few seconds that it would have taken him to get the prophecy?
  • What's the betting the Ministry has wards that record each and every person entering the Ministry? Lucius and other Ministry employees arrive early, taking out guards and unlocking doors. Prison escapees and other criminals arrive later, join up with them. Looking at the wards, it looks like a raiding party led by Sirius Black attacked the ministry, nothing more. Obviously, Voldemort couldn't resist an entrance towards the end, mostly because the plan was already screwed (One of the Death Eaters was going to talk eventually).
  • No, they don't have wards for that sort of thing. Even if they did, the Death Eaters could've just smashed the prophecy and written it down for Voldemort. And, sure, one of the Death Eaters might have talked eventually, but no one would have believed them anyway. So why the grand entrance? And for that matter, why the secrecy? Why can't Voldemort just walk in the Ministry front door and start killing people? He's immortal, so what are they going to do?
  • The issue wasn't Voldemort dying, it was him being discovered. As Bellatrix points out, the Ministry is happily ignoring Harry and Dumbledore while going after Sirius, leaving Voldemort free to sneak around and regain power. If he's seen, there goes that card.
  • "Him being discovered" is not an issue if you consider Polyjuice Potion. The Death Eaters had already captured Bode, a guy who works in the Department of Mysteries, so what's to stop Voldemort from Polyjuicing himself into Bode, casually going to work, and getting the prophecy?
  • At the time they captured him, they used the Imperious curse on him to get the prophecy (causing him to be hurt and hospitalized). They didn't know what the protections on the prophecies were. It's not until Voldemort frees his followers from Azkaban that he understands exactly how to do it, and at that point he thinks it'll be easier to hit two birds with one stone by tricking Harry into getting it and being captured.
  • As Voldemort's physical form at the beginning of the series indicates, his form of immortality does not actually render him immune to death, it just renders death a recoverable condition. It's still moderately inconvenient. It took quite a few years worth of scheming and evil to get his body back the last time he lost it. It'd suck to spend another ten years wandering around Romania just because a security guard got off a lucky shot.
  • Why not just prepare a few batches of that potion that revives him and then storm the Ministry? The people there are mostly cowards, so most would probably surrender or flee. Only a few would even try to fight, and he could easily out-duel them.
  • And fleeing witnesses aren't a problem how? At any rate, the resurrection ritual is considerably more formal than that.
  • The resurrection ritual is not all that complicated; the potion only needs three ingredients. And as for fleeing witnesses, they're no more of a problem than it was when Voldemort's return was made public in the newspaper. In case you don't know, despite that, he was winning the war in the sixth book.
  • Right, three ingredients: bone from his father: easy, but rather limited; blood from his enemy: a little bit harder, unless you have a "blood donation" scheme to fool him; and flesh from the servant: one time or another, no one likes to lose his body parts, even if it's to revive his master. Not to mention most powerful and/or dark potions have those bizarre and arbitrary constraints, like leaving the ingredients brewing for a month before adding the rest of them. Oh, and you're not considering the "primordial liquid" inside the cauldron.
  • Word of God says there's more steps to the resurrection spell then what we saw in the book, just like there's more steps to making a Horcrux than just going up to someone and killing them. It's just that they were apparently too horrible to include because they freaked out Rowling's editor. Perhaps it has something to do with how Voldemort got into his ugly baby form.
  • The Horcruxes don't get used up, they anchor the main part of the soul on this side of the veil. The resurrection ceremony didn't "unmake" a Horcrux. It created a new body and ensouled it with the fragment of soul that had been hanging around as Vapormort for the past thirteen years. "All" the Horcruxes did was make sure that that piece of soul was still around to put into the new body.
  • In any case, Voldemort had bigger fish to fry than casually dropping by the Ministry. It didn't suit his plan for complete take-over; he wasn't ready yet. There were other pieces to put together during that time, plus he thought that this was a simple enough task for Malfoy and Bellatrix to handle. When he finally did show up, he made it clear he was furious he was there in the first place. He didn't expect it to be Battle at the Ministry! It was supposed to be easy recon. Mostly the fault lies with Bellatrix for being so crazy.
  • Also, Voldemort, despite being technically immortal, probably can't afford to do too many resurrection spells. One of the necessary ingredients is "bone of the father", and he seems to have used most of it up when he got re-bodied.
  • Because Harry would have ended up there anyway. Considering the track record of the past few years and the fact Harry was dreaming about the room, chances are if Voldemort went there, Harry would have known and shown up with better protection. Voldemort decided just to simplify things and send someone to take it from Harry. Better to have it on your own terms then have to worry about the Big Damn Heroes showing up a few minutes off schedule.
  • Another possibility is that there is some record somewhere as to who picked up the prophecy in the first place. We know that there are protections against the wrong person trying to acquire a prophecy; perhaps there's a system set up so that you know when the right person did. If so, Harry picking it up meant that anybody looking into it would see his name and chalk it up to his desperate need to be the center of attention. Voldemort going in and claiming it would say The Dark Lord on whatever list records such things and would be indisputable proof that he was back.
  • This seems the sanest bet, especially since the 'Only the people named can pick it up rule' doesn't appear to be some inherent mystical aspect of the prophecy, considering they didn't even know who was named on it at first. And if it's just some spell on the shelves or a curse on the prophesy or something, it's even possible that Voldemort couldn't pick it up safely. There's following procedure and there's insanely following procedure, and there's no reason to actually allow the Dark Lord to pick it up, even if the rules say he's supposed to be included on the list of permitted people. (Which would neatly explain why it didn't use his real name, to keep him off the list.) Even if they did actually allow him, he might still suspect they didn't, or, heck, that some specific extra spell was on it to lock down the entire place if he picked it up.
  • Exactly why would Voldemort need to worry about the list showing he was there? Apart from (possibly) Dumbledore, he was the most skilled wizard alive at that point, surely he could just change the records?
  • Because Voldy was considerably more circumspect (or cowardly) in his second rise than his first. Even when he's actually taken over (in Deathly Hallows), he does so behind a proxy. Considering a baby Harry defeated him last time around, it makes sense to avoid confronting Harry if he can do so.
  • Assume that only two people can pick up the prophecy, Voldemort and Harry. Assume that Harry can prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that he did not pick up the prophecy. The prophecy is gone. Who took it? Voldemort. Ergo, it's in Voldemort's best interests to make Harry do it.
  • One: You can't Apparate into the Ministry of Magic. Two: The plan was to have Harry and friends break into the Ministry, grab the prophecy, take the prophecy from Harry and friends, leave, and frame Harry for the whole thing. So that's why he didn't just show up. So his return would still be unnoticed until he was at his seat of power.
  • Harry was only dreaming about the door because Voldemort was, and Voldemort didn't realize the connection that they had quite yet, so that couldn't have been part of his plan. Voldemort spent all year trying to get the prophecy, so it's not like he was too busy or important to do it. Why couldn't Voldemort just have his Death Eaters go in (just like they did in the book) and clear the way, but instead of luring Harry there, he showed up himself (and apparently could apparate and disapparate there, as that's probably how he showed up and definitely how he left) to grab the prophecy. How to hide his theft? Smash the shelf that the prophecy was on. For good measure, smash several other shelves as well. None of the other prophecies are talking about him, so why would he care about the damage? This way, it wouldn't be obvious that his prophecy was the one that was targeted, and in the book, several shelves of prophecies were smashed with no ill effect, so it could have been easily done.
  • Whoever said you can't Apparate into the Ministry of Magic? Mr. Weasley said he normally Apparated to work, and in The Deathly Hallows, Ministry workers were whining about having to be flushed to work instead of Apparating like normal.
  • You can Apparate into the lobby of the MoM, and that might have been what the Order did instead of taking a flue. Possibly employees can even Apparate to and from their offices, although clearly there's security restrictions for visitors. Regardless of the rules, random people couldn't Apparate into the Department of Mysteries! Letting people pop in and out of your top secret labs would be a stupid idea. So would letting people just walk off the elevator into it, but the Death Eaters probably left any security disabled. There's still no reason to disable the Apparation wards for teenagers who can't do that anyway.
  • You'd think that if a fifteen foot mutant python of death could sneak to the Do M and bite Arthur Weasley without anyone seeing it come or go, Voldemort himself would have no trouble sneaking in even if he was wearing a clown suit and playing the tuba. (Or, more seriously, using polyjuice potion and disguised as somebody whose presence would be unremarkable.)
  • The reason was that the Prophecy ball didn't refer to Voldemort by name (or even his alias). It just said: "The Dark Lord". Sure, he thought it was about him, but the wards on the ball might have thought otherwise, and there was no safe way to tell. So he didn't want to risk as long as there was an alternative.
  • That's not quite accurate, actually. Remembering that Harry's middle name was not included on his prophecy, look at it this way: Say a prophecy is made about James Potter, Harry's father, and James' middle name, like Harry's, is not on the prophecy label. Later on, Harry has a son who he names James Potter. By your logic, Harry's son would be able to take the prophecy because his name is technically on it even though the prophecy was made for his grandfather of the same name. What name is used does not matter; it's the intent, and the intent of the title of The Dark Lord is referring to Voldemort, so he would be able to take the prophecy. If Harry Potter has a grandson also named Harry Potter, that grandson wouldn't be able to take Harry's prophecy because that Harry is not the Harry intended.
  • Everyone seems to be assuming there's some sort of built-in magical rule on the prophesies, but considering the listed names are 'wrong' (Tom Riddle's name is not 'Dark Lord', and the other was a question mark to start with and someone decided it was Harry), and considering someone put it on the shelf to start with, it's just as likely that's a individual curse cast on all prophesies with explicitly listed exclusions. So possibly someone said 'For once, let's not follow the stupid rules, and not exclude Voldemort from the curse, because screw him, he killed a friend of mine.'. And even if they didn't, if the person who did the cursing was a stickler for the rules, Voldemort doesn't know that for sure. Heck, perhaps you have to identify people by their actual names, and no one even knew his.

The Orb of Prophecy - a literal Idiot Ball?

• If Dumbledore had a copy of the Prophecy in the Pensieve, then why didn't they just destroy the glass orb Prophecy in the Dept. of Mysteries rather than keep guard over it so that Voldemort couldn't get it? Even if Dumbledore hadn't had a copy, wouldn't it have been better to extract it (using Harry) and then destroy it? Why keep it in existence, recorded in a form accessible by Voldemort?
  • Who said Voldemort/the Death Eaters knew the origins of the prophecy (Sybill, saw it; Dumbledore, heard her do it)? Besides, let the No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup trope be ignored at least once. Also, only Sybill, Harry, and Voldemort could get the orb, being directly involved in it. (Though this suggests another thing - when the orbs are broken, their prophecies are "released" and heard. Why don't the Death Eaters just use some way to throw the "Dark Lord" one on the floor to hear it?)
  • Dumbledore knew what the prophecy said. Voldemort obviously wasn't going to be finding out from Dumbledore about it. Why did Dumbledore and the Order go through so much effort to keep the prophecy safe from Voldemort instead of just destroying the orb so they could be sure he'd never get it?
  • Easy. So long as he's distracted with that goal in mind, the Order has time to build up its forces and try and convince the Ministry that Voldemort is back person by person. Also, with Voldemort hiding to keep up the illusion that he's not back, he's not openly recruiting or attacking his adversaries.
  • How will Voldemort know the prophecy is destroyed? Especially if you fake up another prophecy orb and leave it for him to find? Heck, prime opportunity for disinformation!
  • You only get one try at that. If someone happens to sneeze halfway through, then you're buggered.
  • Forget breaking it - we saw that the prophecies are just normal objects placed on normal shelves. When Harry and the others destroyed the shelves, many prophecies fell to the floor and broke. Possibly this would set off more alarms but, considering how long it takes the Ministry to arrive in Phoenix, why don't they just remove the shelf, tip it to one side, and catch all the prophecies in someone's cloak? Or destroy it but have someone hold their cloak underneath to catch all the bits as they fall? If you need to get something glass off a shelf which you can't touch and don't want to destroy, then there have got to be better ways than inviting your enemy into the situation to help you. In fact, there's got to be a way to put them on the shelf in the first place - Harry/Voldy/Trelawney weren't invited into the Department of Mysteries for that, presumably - ask your captured Unspeakable how they put them up there, Voldy!
  • By those mentioned in the prophecy can touch it, it meant that the person who spoke and heard it are included, meaning Dumbledore could have touched it as well. If that's not the case, then perhaps it automatically appears in the Department of Mysteries and they have some sort of spell set up to record prophecies from seers.
  • Levitate them onto a previously-enchanted shelf. Once Harry removed the prophecy, anyone could touch it, so there's nothing inherent to the prophecy itself that stops just anyone touching it.
  • So why doesn't Malfoy levitate it down from the shelf? Or use the Accio charm? And for that matter, why did he stop Bellatrix from Summoning it after Harry took it down? Yes, he didn't want anything to happen to it, but how does Summoning it harm it, exactly? Wouldn't it just soar into her hand?
  • It's assumed that the prophecy can't be removed except by the owner, so levitating it probably wouldn't work. Besides, Harry was gripping it hard once he realized the Death Eaters were there. Also, summoning a prophecy without being specific in the hall of prophecies is a bad idea.
  • Weren't a couple of prophecies knocked off the shelf by accident and smashed? That would seem to indicate that it's not physically impossible to remove a prophecy from a shelf without being the subject of it. They could have levitated one end of the shelf and caught it as it rolled off.
  • It's still debatable if the curse that comes from touching a prophecy that doesn't involve you would transfer when you caught it. It's also possible the Department of Mysteries has the prophecies specifically spelled against summoning, levitation, and all sorts of other charms.
  • Presumably while Voldemort was preoccupied with the Prophecy, he wasn't focused on his other plans of hunting down and killing people. After the Prophecy is destroyed, he drops all pretenses and goes all out on the Wizarding World. Thus, Dumbledore not destroying it and perhaps getting arrested (keep in mind at this point he was considered a nut job) for destroying property or having someone else destroy it was keeping it there as a distraction.
  • For that matter, if you're going to keep prophecies that need to be kept safe, especially when you're setting them up in a hall stacked on top of each other, why glass spheres? Why not a Plexiglas cube, or an iron tube, or something?
  • Or better yet. CHARM them unbreakable.
  • It makes sense that the Order wanted to keep Voldemort distracted for as long as possible with the hunt for the prophecy. It also would mean that he and the Death Eaters needed to venture into the Ministry of Magic, increasing the chance that the Ministry would find out about his return. That also explains why they made no effort to get the prophecy moved to a securer location. The parts of the prophecy that Voldemort didn't know about were useless to him. The only things he would have found out were 1) "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal" (which had already happened), 2) "he has powers of which the Dark Lord knows not" (Voldemort would not have understood what this meant) and 3) "neither can live while the other survives" (what difference would this make?).

"Need to Know" Nuttiness

• Why did Dumbledore keep the prophecy secret from Harry? It has to be the most loudly telegraphed "twist" in the history of fantasy. When he found out, why didn't Harry protest with something like, "... Sirius died for THIS? 'You are destined to kill Voldemort someday...' Don't you think I figured that out when I learned he tried to kill me as a baby? Cause where I come from, that's the first symptom of being prophesied to kill the Evil Overlord. You kept us all in a dither about something that anyone past the age of FIVE could have guessed!"
  • Well, the prophecy wasn't exactly "you're going to kill Voldemort." It was more "you're going to kill Voldemort OR Voldemort is going to kill you". That makes a difference. Also, Harry doesn't know that he's the main character of a fantasy series.
  • That makes it even worse! Considering Voldemort and Harry have gone toe-to-toe three times at this point, it's not like "You two are going to fight. One of you is going to lose" is a big shocker to anyone. The fact that the prophecy doesn't even specify who's going to win just makes it that more stupid. Obviously one of them is going to kill the other! That's like getting a prophecy saying "You might eat cereal tomorrow... or you might not."
  • The uncertainty of the prophecy is part of Harry's incentive. Yes, he wanted revenge enough to try and kill Voldemort, but like everyone else, he has had moments when he was afraid and unsure of what he was doing and where he was going. If he heard outright from the prophecy that he was going to kill Voldemort, he might have gotten complacent and not tried hard enough (or, as Dumbledore put it, "set too much store by the prophecy"). The fact, however, that no one knows who will win, made him strive even harder for the victory because he always knew he could die. (And please don't be rude.)
  • Another interpretation is *only* Harry could kill Voldemort and *only* Voldemort could kill Harry. This makes it important because Harry can no longer expect, hope, or pray that anyone else will finish the job for him.
  • The point of telling the prophecy wasn't to inform Harry that he had to kill Voldemort (it was made clear that prophecies didn't have to be fulfilled), it was to explain to Harry why Voldemort wasn't going to stop trying to kill him - Voldy was Genre Blind enough to not simply try to ignore fate and leave him alone. It was also made clear that someone else could kill either Harry or Voldemort, but Harry also said that he wanted to be the one to kill Voldemort, not for the prophecy, but to avenge all the wrongs done.
  • Wasn't the significance of the prophecy was "You're going to kill him AND he's going to kill you." and that it was a bit of a paradox? The characters would be thinking, "How can I get at him without leaving myself open to attack?" and "What does that mean? Do we 'Avada Kedavra' each other at the same time?" Furthermore, wasn't Voldemort's solution, "Okay, Harry did kill me when he was a baby, but thanks to my Horcruxes, I'm back. Now I'm free to kill him!" But the real solution in book seven was that Voldy kills Harry, (destroying the Horcrux), but because Harry sacrificed himself, he came back, then Harry kills Voldemort.
  • It's all confusing, and there's no general consensus on who's right or wrong about how the Prophecy was executed. Keep in mind that Voldemort never knew the whole prophecy and only knew the first two lines lines about when the one with the power to defeat him was to be born, and never never knew about the line dealing with killing each other (or the power the Dark Lord knows not). Harry was ever concerned about dying himself, but he was worried about killing Voldemort and whether he could do it or not.
  • Dumbledore said he kept it a secret because he cared too much about Harry. Also, Harry did have a fit about it. He thought that if Dumbledore had explained it all to him, that this stuff wouldn't have happened. And he'd be partly right in that logic, of course. Also, a side note here, but it's said that the Prophecy doesn't control Harry's actions, it's like a prediction of the most likely outcome. Voldemort killing Harry's parents would, in turn, make Harry want to kill Voldemort. Then, when Voldy takes Harry's blood, he makes it so only they can kill each other.
  • So why didn't Dumbledore say "Harry, in the Department of Mysteries, there is something Voldemort wants. He may send you images through your scar to try and get you to get it so he can get from you" so Harry knows to be careful about the visions he gets?
  • Or "Harry, Voldemort is hacked at you that you've managed to escape him twice already. He'll try extra hard now to rectify that and will use all kinds of tricks to lure you away from safety. He may even send images through your scar. So PLEASE, if you have some vision, even a most vivid one, do not act rashly, go to the nearest Order member."
  • Harry would probably do that anyway - and did! It's just that the only Order member left in Hogwarts was Snape, who Harry simply doesn't trust. If Dumbledore, McGonagall or Hagrid were still at Hogwarts Harry could easily have gone to them.
  • A better question is why did Dumbledore feel the need to keep the prophecy secret from Voldemort. Voldemort wouldn't have benefited at all from knowing Harry's his equal, he already knows Harry was strong because he was unable to kill Harry.
  • It all depends on how Voldemort interprets the prophecy. He could read the prophecy and come to the conclusion that as long as Harry lives, then he can't die.
  • Except, he couldn't, since the prophecy said 'neither can live while the other survives'.
  • As long as V is chasing the prophecy he is distracted from taking over the world. Smart, actually.
    • Conquering Wizarding Britain, according to Deathly Hallows, involves Imperiusing someone highly-placed (and killing the Minister if you can't Imperius them). Fudge is weak-willed and under the influence of Lucius Malfoy; Imperiusing him should have been the easiest thing in the world. And the other bonus of this is: once you rule the Ministry, you can go in and get the prophecy yourself. Using the prophecy as a distraction from conquest is only a smart plan if you're relying on Voldemort being a complete idiot, which is not unreasonable but does detract fromhim as a threat.
    • You're absolutely right. If something in HP, outside of pre-Order Hermione, looks smart, than there must be something missing.
    • The books make clear that the Minister has limits in power and that lots of powerful and influential people, like several high ranking aurors, are members of the Order which most likely already took provisions in case a Minister is imperious by Death Eaters, thus even if you imperious the Minister, you still have to go though auror security and who know how many other permissions. In a world were a man can be control like a puppet with magic is doubtful that the nominal head of government can take decisions without pair review. Of course you can imperious all the aurors and the like with incredibly high levels of difficult, time and resources, but it probably would get suspicious at some point.
  • It's not convincing that Neville was exempt from the prophecy.
    • Let's see. Following to that point in story Fudge has: thrown an innocent man into his mind-rape dungeon; ignored the potential extenuating evidences in favor of rushing with an execution; brought a monster into a school and had it murder a crime suspect and a crucial witness; employed Dolores Umbridge. None of those horrible acts of wanton cruelty apparently met any notable resistance. Therefore there should be some sources for claims like "the Minister has limits in power", "doubtful, that nominal head of government can take decisions without pair review", and "lots of very powerful and influential people, like several high ranking aurors, are members of the Order", other than personal feelings about a story. Especially the last one, which is extra doubtful, when the Order claimed hiring a rookie auror like Tonks as a notable achievement.
• The Minister of Magic can't be, an absolute dictator, or he would've just skipped Harry's trial in book 5 and destroyed his wand. It's made clear that he does have some limits. The problem with "Imperius someone strong in government and take over the world" prior to book 7 is that the Imperius can be resisted or thrown off. It doesn't have to happen right away either: as the Crouches demonstrated, you could be too weak to resist at first and then throw the spell off after a few months. In book 7, the Ministry was filled out with Death Eater agents fast enough that, even if Pius Thicknesse had broken through the Imperius, he'd have been instantly identified and either re-Imperius or killed and replaced with a new figurehead. But if Lucius Imperiuses Fudge in book 5, before Voldemort has enough supporters to take down and replace the Ministry (because remember, the book 7 Ministry takeover didn't just come down to Imperius, there was a fight involved that we didn't see), then there's the risk that Fudge will defy expectations and break out of the spell too early, and if that happens then the Death Eater spies' cover is blown.
• ˄ Indeed, is not only too risky for Malfoy to Imperius Fudge, because the risk of him releasing of the control before time is high, but also Fudge is clearly not am absolute ruler as shown again and again that he tries (and often fails) to do his plans for which he has to convince the Wizengamot that seems to be the Wizards' Parliament where Dumbledore is a member with a lot of influence. Let's see some of the arguments for Fudge dictator status: "thrown an innocent man into his mind-rape dungeon" technically wasn't him, he wasn't even Minister of Magic at the time, Sirius was place on Azkaban without trial (not because they thought he was innocent, which is different, still ethically questionable but they were convinced he was guilty and thought they capture him red-handed) by the system, not by Fudge as an individual. "ignored the potential extenuating evidences in favor of rushing with an execution" evidence coming from two teens and what he thinks is a rival trying to take his office, something that a pity paranoiac bureaucrat would do, not a dictator. "brought a monster into a school" if you refer to Dementors, Dementors were, at the time, servants of the Ministry, ugly and nasty, but still considered in the "side of good" use to capture evil wizards. As for "and had it murder a crime suspect and a crucial witness", if you refer to the Dementors taking on Sirius, in-universe everyone except five persons considers Sirius a psychopathic mass murderer. It will be like assuming that someone is going to complain for Obama shooting the brains out of Bin Laden when he finds him instead of taking him to trial (which was exactly what happened in real life btw), "employed Dolores Umbridge", we as readers know that Umbridge is a bad person, no one in-universe other than the students and some of the teachers in Hogwarts know that, and given her effort to present herself as a the perfect employee and the fact that she has a high ranking position as undersecretary make you think that most people are unaware of her sadism. "None of those horrible acts of wanton cruelty apparently met any notable resistance" apart from the fact that Fudge is eventually remove from office and replaced.
  • For that matter, was the thing even translated properly? Prophecies are a big thing in most Greek myths , and in contrast to those, this one makes no sense. It would be much clearer as:

Behold the coming of the child of the thrice defiant, soon born in the waning of the Lion's house, fated to fight using a gift unexpected against the most insane of Hecate's faithful. Death must close the circle, for none can live in security while their acknowledged nemesis yet lives to oppose them. The weapon against undeniable evil comes forth.

• Not sure how that's any clearer to anyone who hasn't studied Greek Myths extensively, but what do you mean translated properly? It was said in English, heard in English, and if you mean meta: the same person who 'translated' it also wrote it, so how she translated it was how she wanted it to play out.

Go, Severus, And Spy No More

• DD tells Harry that, when Snape was eavesdropping on him listening to the Prophecy, somebody (apparently, Aberforth) busted him and "threw out of the building". Why would they just let a potential (that is if, for some reason, they failed to establish his true allegiance) spy go with his memory intact?
  • It's possible that Aberforth didn't know who Snape was and, seeing a man listening outside of a room in his inn that was rented to a woman, simply reacted like a good landlord and threw Snape out. Then, afterwards, when Aberforth told Albus what had happened, much facepalming ensued.
  • Except that it's not what happened. According to Trelawny in Half-Blood Prince, Aberforth actually opened the door and "introduced" Snape to them, and Severus even made some excuses for being there, so obviously DD knew he was there and what he was doing. And them he let him go. Why.
  • Picture this: Aberforth: Hey, Albus, I caught this guy outside the room! Snape: Oh, crap! *Disapparates*
  • Good idea, but in that case Snape wouldn't have bothered with excuses (and he did, even Trelawny remembers them), and DD said that he was "thrown out", not apparated away.
  • Now the scene makes even less sense! If Trelawny remembers Snape, this means that she saw him after she'd finished prophesying, because during the process she's out. But how is that possible?! Snape was only supposed to hear the first sentence before he was "thrown out"!
  • Well, maybe Snape eavesdropped on the door and heard the first half of the prophecy, but then Aberforth caught him, preventing him from eavesdropping. The two of them fought for a few seconds and, right after Trelawney finishes the prophecy, Aberforth opens and tells his brother Snape was eavesdropping, before kicking Snape out of the Hog's Head. Fits quite well with all theories.
  • Nope, it brings us back to the initial point. If DD was aware that Sev'd eavesdropped on them, then there's no way he'd let him go at all, and with his memory intact in particular. Especially since he was more likely than not aware of his allegiance.
  • Erasing Snape's memory would require explanation to Aberforth and Trelawny, which would mean revealing the fact that Trelawny unknowingly gave an extremely important prophecy. Chances are, Dumbledore thought Snape had not heard enough of the prophecy to be a threat and decided to let it go.
  • He's Albus Dumbledore. It's entirely possible he can do a wandless, nonverbal Obliviate.
  • Ok, let's assume there was no way for him to do it discreetly, however unlikely that is, and he would have to explain everything to them. What's the problem? If nothing else, he could erase their memories of the event as well.
  • Maybe there was such a commotion that DD simply couldn't get away with an Obliviate. Snape is spying, Aberforth catches him, Snape refuses to stop, a fight starts, other people get involved, and at some point Snape falls/is pushed through the door into the room. At which point Snape, realizing that the prophesy is over anyway, makes lame excuses, whereas Aberforth informed everyone that Snape was actually spying and will be removed. DD is not able to do anything about this because there's a large crowd of people who've come upstairs involved in the 'commotion' that Trelawney was talking about, and you can't just blatantly Oblivate wizards like that. (Perhaps some of the crowd were even Voldemort supporters.)
  • So in the time of war the goddamn Dumbledore would be deterred from dispatching a captured spy by the presence of bystanders? Like how? Would they bring up the human right issue and go to lengths to ensure he's treated humanely, or rush DD to break Snape out? Gimmeabreak. But let's say DD indeed couldn't act there and then. So what? How the hell does "removing" Snape transcribe into letting him go? Obviously he would have to be "removed" to the Ministery/Azkhaban for interrogation. And even if DD didn't want to get them involved and learn about the prophecy, again, do you seriously believe THOSE people would sincerely object or care if DD said that that's where he'd be taking Snape? And after they got far enough from the inn, well...
  • There would be a rather large difference in the onlooker reaction to a landlord saying 'Get the hell out of here, you eavesdropper!' and Snape either being forced out the door or just leaving under his own power, and the onlooker reaction to DD (Who is not any sort of law enforcement official) attempting to detain and arrest Snape for eavesdropping, which is not actually a crime. In fact, presuming Snape had his wand, detaining him would have required DD illegally attacking him for no obvious reason at all.
  • What kind of "reaction" would you envision in such situation? Here's a guy, who'd been caught eavesdropping and fought over it, and Dumbledore, who's either already the goddamn Supreme Judge (so much for "not any sort of law official"), or at least the leader of the goddamn Resistance, or just the goddamn Dumbledore, declares that he's taking this man into custody on suspicion of espionage. Oh, and you are a random patron of a shady, rundown inn, maybe with a few others, because honestly, how much "hastle" could a few seconds of magical fight cause? So what are you going to do? Take into consideration that DD already knows the Prophecy and likely understands its importance and possible consequences of it falling into V's hands.
  • We have twice been told that Death Eaters hang out at the Hogs Head. DD said Voldemort's 'followers' had hung back there while V was applying for the DADA job in the 1950s, and in the present Alberforth reminded them if they went after him for curfew violations, they'd have nowhere to hang out. It is not 'random patrons' who might join in the fight with Snape, it's actual Death Eaters. And the premise is that they already did get involved, that the 'commotion' described included them. So the door swings open to situation that DD can't contain, with half a dozen Death Eaters plus Snape apparently in a stand-off with Alberforth who is telling them to get out. DD has no way to detain them, especially since they'd just apparate away if he did attack them. And that's assuming that other people are going to have no problem with him randomly attacking people. No, a Supreme Court justice can't walk up to people and start a beatdown, even if he yells that they're a terrorist.
  • Snape was rather good at both dueling and mind-related magic. If he can resist Legilimency and Veritaserum, he could probably resist an attempted Memory Charm.
  • Trewlaney says Snape was there for a job. That could be ignorance on her part, but if it's the truth, that leaves several possibilities. Such as Snape being thrown out for listening at the door but convincing whoever matters that he has an appointment, honest, and maybe, halfheartedly, apologizing for being so impatient/nervous/creepy.
  • Snape only overheard half of the prophecy because while he was listening, Aberforth found him and they started arguing at the door. So because Snape was trying to argue, he didn't hear the rest. And his argument probably was that he was here for a job as well. So Aberforth opens the door and says "this man here says he's got an appointment with you" and when Dumbledore says no, he gets thrown out. And maybe Dumbledore didn't even know what he'd heard until Snape came to him looking for help.
  • The story of the spy getting thrown out is also told by Dumbledore to Harry, at the point he doesn't want to tell him the truth about Snape just yet.
  • What can be guessed, from both Dumbledore and Trelawney's later description of it, is that Snape and Aberforth's commotion ruined the chance to hear the rest of it as said above, and that when Snape was brought into the room, Dumbledore wasn't sure if Snape heard any of it, and either incorrectly assumed he actually didn't, or might have tried to Legilmens Snape to check if he had to remove those memories of it or at least be sure, except Snape is an exceptional Occlumens so that didn't work, and then Snape was tossed out, and likely Apparated away as fast as he could. Essentially, Dumbledore could've done other things, like say wipe the last few minutes of Snape's memory indiscriminately or ask him verbally (if that could even be trusted) and alert Aberforth, Snape, and Trelawney about the prophecy and its significance, or even persuade his brother to let him see Snape alone to do something else (though Snape probably would've run immediately then) but chose not to to be more cautious with Legilimency, but the cautious approach didn't work and he didn't get a chance to try again. Hope that is at least somewhat satisfactory.
  • Perhaps DD tried to subdue and capture him, but Snape managed to escape. That seems fairly plausible to me. DD was there for a job interview, so he may not have been expecting a fight—and they were meeting in his brother’s pub, so there was at least some semblance of security—and Snape isn’t a weak wizard. While it’s almost unquestionable that even an unprepared DD would trounce Snape, under these circumstances Snape doesn’t have to beat DD. He’d simply have to fight defensively just long enough to get out the door and away (if even that, since he could probably just Apparate away from inside the pub), and from someone in Trelawny’s position this would naturally appear to be DD just throwing Snape out.

Why Don't Ya Just Hex Him... Wait, that's what you're trying to do?!?

• The whole plot point with Voldemort's desire for the prophecy as a means to kill Potter is rendered completely senseless, when Voldemort tries to AK Potter in the atrium, even though the prophecy-ball is destroyed. So, if Voldemort's convinced that AK would work on Potter (otherwise, why'd he use it), then why bother with the prophecy at all and not kill Potter right after he enters the Ministry, or at least have the DE ambush and capture him?
  • Him showing up in the Ministry wasn't the brightest of ideas in the first place. If he's trying to keep the fact that he's back a secret, and he shows up at the Ministry, why didn't he do this before and simply grab the prophecy himself? Voldemort didn't think out the whole plan well, and that's his character flaw in not thinking of everything the way he should have. When he got there, regardless of reason, he was enraged that they'd destroyed the prophecy, and in his madness assumed that since he had Harry's blood and he almost killed him last year, this year shouldn't be any different and he could kill him just as easily. Which is technically true at that time.
  • Isn't this lampshaded by Dumbledore as the first thing he says to Voldy is (paraphrasing here) "it was a bad idea to come here tonight, Tom."
  • Yeah, except that he looked surprisingly calm and cool-headed in that moment and not enraged at all. And luring Potter to the Ministry and away from the protection of Hogwarts was a great idea, all the less plausible that V didn't think of positioning Death Eaters right at the entrance and ambushing the kids.
  • The plan was shot down at that point. Voldy hadn't reckoned on Harry showing up with friends, and actually fighting his Death Eaters, let alone summoning the Order of the Phoenix. At that point, he was resorting to damage control.
  • Voldemort, the single most fearsome dark wizard alive, sent Harry Potter an invitation to a massacre and was actually surprised that Harry came with reinforcements? Voldemort, whom the Order has been searching for frantically all year, deliberately transmitted his exact location to one of his worst enemies and didn't expect the Order of the Phoenix to show up? What, did they make him swallow the Idiot Ball?
  • Nope. V planned to make Harry curious enough to tootle along to the Ministry alone to get the prophecy as he thought Harry already knew of its existence and wanted to hear the whole thing. When he didn't, V lured him with Sirius. V's DEs (yay for acronyms!) would have creamed Harry and co.but for the arrival of the Order, and here's the point you are missing: Voldemort had no way of knowing the Order would be there - Harry had little time, after all - because the only reason they were was Harry's message to Snape who V thought was on his side! V showing up at the Ministry was damage control and DD himself calls it foolish thus why V didn't do it in the first place. Yet another apparent Plot Hole solved with the wonders of logic!
  • Harry was sent an image of an Order of the Phoenix member being tortured to death by Voldemort, and Voldemort is still surprised at the idea that Harry might bring reinforcements? Look, Harry's not a genius but give him some credit. If he's rolling out to do a hostage rescue against Voldemort himself, Harry's going to bring anyone and anything he can possibly find. Expecting Harry to voluntarily show up alone is insane, and given that Voldemort's entire plot is based on Harry finding a way to travel from Hogwarts to London unaided, and does not specify an exact arrival nor depature time for Harry, Voldemort has no way of knowing if Harry makes any stops on the way. Which of course Harry doesn't because this sequence is absurd; Voldemort makes stupid plan that comes as close to working as it did only because Harry passes up an obvious option. ('Seeing as how this flight took hours anyway, what's say we take ten more minutes and detour to Grimmauld Place first while we're overflying London?')
  • Although now we've got to wonder how Snape managed to get away with it. If V bothers to even slightly reconstruct what happened, he knows that Harry couldn't have ordered the reinforcements, especially as they arrived so late. So how does V think DD figured out what was going on? Either Snape betrayed V, or Snape isn't as trusted by DD as Snape claims, because there's apparently a member of the Order at Hogwarts that Snape doesn't know about who noticed Harry was missing. (I hope Snape suggested it was Umbridge, who, after all, helped escort Harry out of the castle earlier that night.)
  • It's been established that the Order has been patrolling the Dept. of Mysteries at night, so its likely that another member bit the dust that night when the DEs showed up. Snape, being their 'inside man' to the Order, could have said something like, "Oh, Lupin was going to take over the watch at midnight, and when he showed up and saw all Hell breaking loose, he sent up the Bat Signal."
  • Nope, doesn't work. If there was such a patrolling member, Snape would've been expected to know about him and relay that knowledge to V, who would've planned accordingly.
  • Well, V already knows they're patrolling there, thanks to his snake attack. Presumable that person was taken out off-screen. And Snape could claim that maybe they patrolled in pairs sometimes and the Death Eaters missed one. But the problem is, if an Order member had sent the alert, reinforcement would have been there earlier, way before Harry got there. (Presumably, the Death Eaters were in control of the situation there before the first vision was even sent.) That can't be used to explain them showing up later. There's no explanation besides the actual one of Snape sending them, and it seems odd V never pieces that together.
  • 'Voldemort, the single most fearsome dark wizard alive, sent Harry Potter an invitation to a massacre and was actually surprised that Harry came with reinforcements?'

Well, let's consider Harry's track record so far, from Voldemort's point of view. First Year - he shows up to confront Quirrell (and Voldemort) on his own. Second Year - he shows up to confront Tom Riddle and the Basilisk on his own. Third Year - he goes into Shrieking Shack and confronts Sirius Black (who is supposedly out to kill him) with one friend for backup. That's three separate examples of Harry rushing off to fight a powerful dark wizard with little to no backup. Why would he assume that Harry would change his tune in his fifth year? Hell, the only reason Neville, Luna, and Ginny even come along is because they strong-armed Harry into bringing them. After they escape from Umbridge and the Inquisitorial Squad, his first thought is "you three go back to the castle, and I'll take Ron and Hermione to confront the most powerful dark wizard since Grindelwald, and his army of followers. I think the three of us can take them."

• Well, Harry's fights with Dark wizards during his first three years all took place on Hogwarts grounds, where the chance of getting an experienced teacher or even an older student to help is considerably higher. Getting anyone to believe Harry that he had to get into the Ministry of Magic to fight off Voldemort would be hard, even if he tells that to someone from the Order, especially then as they would insist he stay at Hogwarts at all costs. Harry's "saving people complex" (especially his godfather) would not have let him loiter to wait for reinforcements. He is not the most sound of mind in situations of grave danger and would have tried to get to the Ministry all by himself by whatever means possible. That is something Voldemort is well aware of, otherwise he would not have bothered trying to lure him in by sending him visions of torturing Sirius.
  • In Goblet of Fire, Barty Crouch Jr. vented his frustration that Harry was too stubborn to ask for help, at least from anybody but Ron and Hermione. He led Harry by the nose to just short of the solution for the first task. He slipped Neville the book that would have led him to gillyweed... but that didn't work. He had to arrange for Dobby to get the answer. Harry wasn't better in the later books either. The Death Eaters had him correctly profiled.

So, what's the point in almost choosing someone, again?

• What was the point in having Neville be The Almost Chosen One? Conservation of Detail, and it doesn't go anywhere in the next couple books. Neville becomes more badass, but that has nothing to do with the prophecy. The prophecy didn't say "...and this person will kill the Dark Lord. The person that fits most, but not all the criteria will stop being a loser, and start kicking ass."
  • Neville was the Almost Chosen One because it gave Voldemort the option to choose who he wanted as his equal. If there was only one person the prophecy could have qualified, then it wouldn't have mattered what blood type Harry was, but instead it shows that Voldemort doesn't care for blood supremacy as much as he claims. Plus, it has the added bonus of giving Harry (and the readers) the "what if?" line of thought.
  • Prophecies are vague and misleading. Neville was The Almost Chosen One because the prophecy didn't give sufficient enough information to narrow it down to the one person it was actually about. Technically, it didn't name Voldemort either, but there was only one Dark Lord at the time, so that wasn't hard to guess. It's rare for a prophecy to be precise and unambiguous in their wording; they're tricky that way.
  • It can be even worse if you make the prophecy in question even vaguer by considering that there are other calendars, so "as the seventh month dies" might not even be July. If interpreted incorrectly (and judging by how little of the prophecy Snape heard), it's actually impressive that Voldemort jumped to the conclusion that Harry or Neville must be the child mentioned.
  • "It's rare for a prophecy to be precise and unambiguous in their wording; they're tricky that way." In fiction, that's because it would be boring to have the exact details of how everything is gonna happen ahead of time. In real life, it's because concrete and detailed claims are falsifiable.
  • Didn't Dumbledore himself tell Harry that it was all basically Voldemort who made the choice on who became the chosen one, and he chose Harry as the one most similar to him, The half-blood, whereas Neville is a pure-blood. Voldemort interpreted what parts he did know of the prophecy and considered Harry as his equal.
  • Exactly as above. It doesn't matter how many calendars there are. Voldy interpreted the prophecy as he understood it and in doing so, fulfilled his part of creating the Chosen One.

  • Look at the wording of the prophecy again, as Harry was NOT his equal until Voldemort killed his parents (and failed to kill Harry.)
    
    "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the [Dark Lord will mark him as his equal], but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."
    
    Oh and what other month could be the 7th month of the 12 months of the year? July. Both Harry and Neville's parents were part of the original Order of the Phoenix so "born to those who thrice defied him", the only difference is Harry's a half-blood (like the Snape, Voldemort, and Dumbledore) and Neville's a Pure-blood (but like Ron doesn't care)
    • You're assuming that the prophecy follow the Julian or Gregorian calendar system and not some other calendar that has at least 7 months. The Roman calendar had 10 months in it, the seventh of which was September. Septem being the Latin word for seven. So, yes, as pointed out above, the calendar system in question could make a big difference.
  • That was actually when he explained to Harry everything about the prophecy and why everything was set into motion, after the climax at the Ministry when they were back at Hogwarts. That statement makes Voldemort choosing Harry make more sense than had he chosen Neville. Page 842 of the US version.
  • Dumbledore explains the nature of prophecy and how Voldemort made Harry the Chosen One: there are no further special magic powers granted to Harry, it was all V's doing. By A King Harry's parents, he made Harry his sworn enemy. By accidentally sticking a bit of his soul to Harry, he gave him the mind-link and Parseltongue. Harry doesn't magically have to kill V at all, it's just the only thing that can happen purely because of Voldemort.

Run straight to Voldemort, that's a bright idea!

• Dumbledore mentions that someone overheard part of the prophecy as Trelawney spoke it, from where they were eavesdropping outside the room, and that they were promptly booted out and proceeded to bring the information to Voldemort, who uses it to select Harry Potter as his next target. We later find out that this eavesdropper was Professor Snape, who regretted what he'd done because it led to Lily's death. If he didn't want Lily to be in danger, then why did he tell Voldemort the prophecy in the first place? He seemed smart enough to have figured who it was referring to.
  • Snape, in his younger days, we see as being somewhat isolated and desperate for approval. Voldemort offered that and after a while he just became used to doing anything to get Voldy's approval including being a snitch for Voldemort. Snape didn't put two and two together until afterwards there, even when he did he was deluded enough to think that someone as flat out nutso as Voldemort would let Lily live for him. He got a harsh lesson in thinking things through with that one.
  • To the first question, why would Snape think it would refer to James and Lily? He only heard the first part of the prophecy, and Voldemort made the connection to the Potters and Longbottoms. From Death Eater Snape's perspective, his boss gave him an assignment to infiltrate Hogwarts by taking a post there, he nearly messed everything up with his failure at stealth, so he did what any Death Eater did, used the prophecy that he himself would likely not take seriously to save face from his master. To the second question, Voldemort did follow through on Snape's bargain, he told Lily to step aside and she refused. That's what undid Voldemort. Had he been faithless and killed her at once, none of the scar hijinks would have worked.
    • Yeah, Snape and Lily were long estranged at this point, and there's no reason he would even know she was pregnant. It's only after Voldemort presumably does some digging and discovers that it could refer to James and Lily that he has an Oh, Crap! moment.
  • It depends. How did Voldemort find out who the child who was "born as the seventh month dies" was, anyway?
  • There were other markers like "being born to a family who has eluded him three times", so he must've checked which Auror families escaped him thrice, narrowed down the candidates, then checked births in late July via the papers to see if they had any kids then.
  • Wormtail was passing information at that point, wasn't he? So he could probably confirm that two women in the Order of the Phoenix - Lily Potter and Alice Longbottom - were pregnant and likely to give birth soon.

We need to get our priorities straight...

• Why was it important to keep the full prophecy away from Voldemort? The "one must die at the hands of the other" bit might have made Voldemort redouble his efforts to kill Harry, but the "power the Dark Lord knows not" bit might have made him more cautious. Keeping Voldemort occupied trying to get the prophecy tied up some of his resources, but protecting the prophecy tied up some of the resources of the Order.
  • It was a necessary distraction. While he's distracted, he's not attacking and advancing his other plans as much as he could. Dumbledore is worried Voldemort could figure something out that he doesn't want him to, or rather assume something he shouldn't. For example, Voldemort figured out from only two lines that it had to refer to Neville or Harry, ignoring the possibility that the prophecy could be referring to a different calendar or dark lord. If he got a hold of the entire prophecy, he could possibly interpret the line "the power he knows not" to mean that Harry has some way to locate his Horcruxes, and as a precaution place more enchantments on them, move them, or hold onto them closer. It's better to leave your opponent in the dark than let him have information that could lead him to being that much harder to defeat.
  • If they wanted to ensure Voldemort never got his hands on the Prophecy, the simplest and surest method would simply be to walk in, smash the prophecy globe, and leave a transfigured lava lamp in its place. (And yes, they could do that; the protections keep anybody not named in the prophecy from picking it up, but Harry and Bellatrix both smash prophecies willy-nilly by accident when fighting in the DOM. Smashing one on purpose should be even easier.) After all, its not like Dumbledore needs the prophecy; he's already got his own copy safe in his pensive!
  • The theory about delaying Voldemort seems fitting. After all, if he's spending all his time trying to break into the Ministry to get the prophecy, he isn't devoting his full attention to raising an army etc. Delaying him for as long as possible seems like the plan. Alternately they don't know they can just go in and smash the prophecy - it's something that would admittedly be hard to test without getting caught. It's only when the Death Eaters are chasing Harry and co. that they smash them. There could even be enchantments to catch anyone who smashes a prophecy - that the Death Eaters obviously removed.
  • Also, if they had left a transfigured lava lamp in place of the real prophecy, then Sturgis and Bod would have been able to take the fake prophecy without being cursed, Voldemort would have gotten the fake, and he would have realized the prophecy was gone. He wouldn't be in a position to know whether the prophecy was missing because it was moved or because it was destroyed, so he might have given up on getting it; besides that, even if he ended up Legilimizing some Order member to find out that the prophecy was still around, if they hid it at, say, the HQ at Grimmauld Place then it's already beyond his reach, which leads to the same outcome as if it had been smashed.
  • And if the prophecy is just destroyed casually before Voldemort figures it out, that could put Sybil Trelawney in danger too. As the seer who made it, Voldemort could try to track her down as well and torture her to try and get it out of her. That's why Dumbledore makes sure Sybil isn't sent away from the school after Umbridge fires her.

Where is the competence? Surely Voldemort's top flunkies can do better than THAT!

• The Death Eaters were beaten for a while by children when they had a clear numerical advantage. They wouldn't last ten seconds when they were outnumbered and faced by thousands of adults who were all trained more in magic than the children.
  • The children were trained by Harry for most of a year in techniques he had found effective against Voldemort. Harry is the definition of a Messianic Archetype, and, for once, the training period is actually of a fairly reasonable length. Are most of the Death Eaters all that trained in combat? They seem more like terrorists, dependent on catching people unprepared in the middle of the night more than a group that constantly trains, at least until Deathly Hallows, anyway.
  • You answered your own question. They were facing children. Not to mention the Hand Wave of the Luck potion, giving them an advantage on top of some serious training, but really. We are talking about a bunch of people who have made names for themselves by striking terror in the hearts of others through terror tactics squaring off against a cadre of children. Do you think they took them seriously in the slightest?
  • The Death Eaters didn't just mop the floor with the kids because they wanted the prophecy Harry was holding. The Death Eater who got too trigger happy and ruined Voldemort's chance to hear the prophecy would be lucky to get off with a painless death. They were deliberately holding back.
  • Also, 'beaten back' is only in the movie. In the book, it was more 'the children managed to successfully run away and hide. For about ten minutes. At which point Bellatrix and her squadmates caught up to them and proceeded to thrash them all, leaving Harry in a uncomfortable hostage situation resolved only by the Big Damn Heroes entrance of the Order'.
  • Like already said, it's just the movie that portrayed them as so incompetent. The children only managed to last that long because they run and used surprise, and because the death eaters had to take care of the fact that harry could break the prophecy at any moment when it was their top priority. Even with all those disadvantages, the hide and seek games didn't last long and they were completely and utterly defeated. It's actually a miracle and thanks to Snape's quick reaction in alerting the order that harry&co managed to survive. The death eaters are actually quite competent, they are at least able to fight on equal terms with aurors, and they even managed to take the ministry through infiltration in the last book in less than two years.
  • Most of the group saving Lucius (who has probably only fought in formal duels and was not well-trained) had spent the last decade in Azkaban. They probably weren't back to their 100% best yet.
  • Well, they did overwhelm the Order until Dumbledore showed up. Moody and Tonks had already been defeated by Dolohov and Bellatrix. Bellatrix was even able to beat Sirius and Kingsley AFTER Dumbledore joined the fray. That makes them pretty competent.
  • And by the time the Order show up, they've neutralized Ron, Ginny, Hermione and Luna. So they weren't 100% overpowered by the teens.

Retrieving the prophecy

• Since the prophecy given by Trelawney wasn't specific enough at first to exclude either Harry or Neville, and if "prophecies can only be retrieved by those about whom they are made," doesn't that mean that Neville could potentially have gotten it down, too? Or did Voldemort "choosing" Harry like the prophecy said he would effectively lock Neville out of it? (I ask because the book at least implies that the glass orb was made and shelved before the attack on Godric's Hollow, since it mentions a question mark was initially written on the label, only to be crossed out with Harry's name written over it.)
  • Probably, yes.
  • Maybe at some point, such as during the time period in which the prophecy was made and Voldemort tried to kill the Potters, Neville could've gotten it with no problem. After Voldie chose/tried to kill Harry, however, it was obvious who the prophecy spoke of, Neville couldn't have done it during the events of this book. The question mark is still there possibly for a technicality, since even at OotP in-universe there's still a chance it might not be Harry (of course, we as readers we know Harry is the one destined to kill Voldie. And Dumbledore too, having listened to the whole prophecy).

Oh noes! Voldy got the prophecy...now how does it help him?

• We know Voldemort was trying to get the prophecy. Now, let's think about a hypothetical situation where he manages to get and listen to it. Just what does he gain from it?
  • Absolutely nothing.
  • He would probably have eased up on his "Harry Potter must die" obsession.
  • He probably would've learned the half he didn't hear, 'and he will mark him as his equal' and so on. Chances are, he either would've laughed at the idea that Harry was somehow equal to him, changing nothing, or as mentioned above, he might have eased up a bit on being obsessed that he must be the one to kill Harry.
  • Obviously, in hindsight, getting the prophecy didn't do much to further V's plans, but at the time, he probably suspected that there was something juicy in the prophecy that could help him, i.e. "This is the time and place of the final duel!" Or "If the Dark Lord starts the duel with an Unforgiveable, he'll win!" Or, "Your winning numbers are..." Clearly, there wasn't anything that helpful in there, but how was he to know?
• The real reason that the Order might want to keep him from getting the prophecy was that it distracted him. And since the prophecy was stored in the Ministry of Magic, it would increase the chance that the Ministry would find out about his return. Once Voldemort moves on to other plans, it gets unpleasant quickly, even as the Ministry try to help.
  • Voldemort believing that HE must be the one to kill Harry was a good thing, if you read book 7. [[spoiler:Before book four the plan of Dumbledore involved Harry dying to finally beat Voldemort for good. After book four, he came up with a new plan that where Harry dying wasn't necessary. Voldemort is going to want Harry dead either way. Believing that HE must kill Harry means Harry is less likely to be killed by any of the numerous death eaters, inferi, snakes or giants Voldemort commands.
  • Except numerous people on the Light side were injured or outright killed to distract Voldemort from doing something that would have exposed him anyway. If he sends his own mooks, they can't touch the prophecy and the defenses kick in, raising some odd questions when a member of a prominent pure-blood family is found in the prophecy room with his brains scrambled. If Voldemort comes himself, he risks exposing himself to the guards or leaving corpses behind, either of which would raise a lot of questions. And nothing in that prophecy would have helped him anyway. If anything, they're helping Voldemort keep his return a secret.

Dark Lords Do Not Do Stealth?

• "Voldemort had to either go to the Ministry himself, risking exposure or..." *needle scratch*. Wait a second. What exposure? Apart from his face and, maybe, pale skin he has no distinguishing features. He's of regular height, he has no outlandish body deformities, and nobody except Harry can percept him on any special level, so what exactly prevented him from simply using some disguise? Like an invisibility spell or a shape-shifting potion or a mask the kind of like every goddamn last of his underlings wears all the goddamn time?
  • "Hey, look, some bloke in face-concealing hooded robes and a mask like the ones the Death Eaters wear. Haven't seen him around here before, he must be new at the Ministry." Okay, joking aside, aren't missions like that what Evil Minions are for?
  • Usually yes, but this one they were simply unable to complete on their own. Besides, what about that pathologic distrust V supposedly has for everybody else? Is he a sole player or not?
  • Voldemort isn't ever described as having a pathological distrust for everybody else, nor is he described as a sole player. One of his main traits is how he uses people, with or without their knowledge. He doesn't confide in them or share his secrets, but this seems to be less about trust and more about plain arrogance and seeing everyone else as beneath him.
  • That's the way DD described him in the next book when they rummaging through his backstory, at least the solo player part. But regardless, only V or Harry could retrieve the prophecy. Going there himself was obviously much easier than luring Harry there, and he could do it at any moment.
  • But since the prophecy can only be retrieved by Harry and Voldemort, if it were to go missing one night people would know one of them had to have taken it. As much as Fudge wants to blame everything on Harry, "Harry Potter snuck out of Hogwarts in the middle of the night, flew across the country, broke into the Ministry of Magic, bypassed all of our security measures, stole a prophecy no one's even told him exists yet, Avada Kadavra'd a couple guards on the way out, returned to Hogwarts, and snuck back into bed without anyone noticing anything" is not any less believable than "Voldemort's back, he took it".
  • The real problem is why Voldemort wants to take the prophesy. He just wants to hear it. Go along with Lucius and the others, send them out of the Prophesy room, listen to it, leave. He has to know Dumbledore knows the prophesy, Snape would have told him, and the fact Harry was hidden as a baby makes it sorta obvious. So there's no reason to remove or destroy the prophesy. Is there some sort of record of playback of the prophesy? Or is Voldemort just being stupid? Again?
  • What stops Voldemort from Polyjuicing himself into someone who is politically well-connected and can wander freely around the Ministry? Even getting the original out of the way without alerting someone is easy. Voldemort has several Death Eaters who at this point in time have easy access to the Ministry (such as Lucius, or Yaxley). He could simply order one of them to stay home for a few hours while he took their place. Sure, Lucius doesn't actually have access to the Department of Mysteries itself, but we already know Voldemort is a good enough magical burglar to hack Gringotts (as he does precisely this while advising Quirrell); Lucius' face gets him all the way to the DoM outer door, from that point on Voldemort's own skill does. Easy peesy.
  • Given that his body is now a construct made in a ritual, can he use polyjuice? Exactly how close to human is his reborn body? Is it still human enough for polyjuice to work or not? Is this even covered at all during the series?
  • It's possible that using Polyjuice or Transfiguration to disguise yourself as somebody else would cause the prophecy to register you as "not the person this prophecy is about" and inflict the curse. Based on the facts, we must assume it's possible to track the traffic of who's been listening to the prophecies.
  • And don't forget that Voldemort has to first work out how to get into the Department. The first room you go into spins you around so you don't know which door you came through. Only an idiot goes into an unfamiliar place, guns blazing. Yes the teens had an easy enough time, likely because the Death Eaters had removed any obstacles. But think of how long it took for them to get to that point. We don't see all the dead ends and hurdles they had to overcome, but there's bound to be loads. And Voldemort wants to lay low.

Hand Me The Ball

• The only ones who can touch a prophecy ball without going insane are the ones it was made about, so the D Es lure Harry into the Hall of Prophecy, have him grab the ball, and then Lucius demands that Harry gives the ball to him. Wait, what makes Lucius think that the ball's mind-shattering power subsided once Harry had taken the ball from the shelf? And if he in fact knows it for sure, then why the heck would it? It doesn't seem the balls were initially meant to be played Hot Potato with, so why would whoever enchanted them include such a security-compromising caveat?
  • It was about picking them up from the shelf, not about holding them. Once picked up, anyone could hold them. That's what it was all about, it would make no sense at all if not that.

The Prophecy is wrong in oh so many ways

• "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."
  • It says 'either must die at the hand of the other'. The last blow against Voldemort is struck by...Voldemort. It's a backfiring curse. That is not 'the other'.
  • But Voldemort was using Harry's wand at the time so in a way it counts.
  • It says 'neither can live while the other survives'. That has be interpreted pretty poetically to be true, and even then it doesn't work. Even if we assume 'live' means 'live in a way that isn't under constant attack', Harry manages to pull that off for 11 years. Likewise, Voldemort managed to live well the first 18 months Harry was alive. It might be true at this point in the story, but not earlier.
  • The Dursleys are at least occasionally physically abusive. Even if they aren't, Harry's quality-of-life at 4 Privet Drive seems to fall under "surviving", not living. The cupboard under the stairs, for Merlin's sake!
  • So the theory is that there are two different thing, that there is 'living' vs. 'surviving', and both Harry and Voldemort are restricted to only 'surviving' while the other survives? That does seem to explain the end, but doesn't explain the first 18 months of Harry's life, where Voldemort seemed to live just fine.
  • Or split the "neither can..." part into two. Now it means neither can live, which means both must die at some point, but somehow one will survive. The prophecy doesn't make full sense unless an Ass Pull happens at the end, which turns out to be a Fridge Brilliance from Jo. But seriously, neither can DIE while the other survives is a little closer to clarity.
  • It say 'but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not', which is love, and that part seems to be true and make sense. Love is a power, and Voldemort does not know about it. But then it says 'the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies'. While the power of love is important, at no point does Harry's power of love vanquish Voldemort. His mother's love sorta does, at least twice (The original backfired curse, and killing Quirrell.) But not his own power of love. We're all glad it showed up, it kept a lot of people alive, etc, etc, but it didn't vanquish Voldemort, Voldemort's stupidity and egotism did that.
  • The prophecy just said that he would have power that Voldemort doesn't know of, not that that's how he will defeat him.
  • And, to top it off, we have strange tense issues: The entire prophesy is in the future tense. He's approaching, he will do this, he will have that, etc. Except he is apparently 'born', not 'will be born'. The first 'born' could be written off as it fading out for a second, but not the second.
  • It doesn't refer to Voldemort's death, but to Harry's. The prophecy doesn't talk about killing, but about dying, as if the active party is the one doing the dying rather than the killing. And so it eventually proves; Harry sacrifices himself to stop Voldemort, thereby resolving the prophecy.
  • Love is oversimplifying it. Harry's powers start with the protection inherited from his mother. Voldemort eventually realizes what happened but doesn't fully understand it, thus he screws himself over focusing on a minor problem that allows the same thing to happen again to a much greater extent by Harry's actions. They expand with the wand cores. Voldemort eventually gets someone to tell him what happened, but as he's ignorant the how the laws of magic actually work he never realizes the implications of losing the that particular tie up. Voldemort then goes in search of the greatest power he knows of, but again doesn't understand it already belongs to someone else and his attempts to take it end up robbing him of the greatest power he already has, finally allowing Harry to stand up to him.
  • The prophecy makes sense when you break it down into its individual parts:
    "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies..."
  • The tense issue is reconciled by the fact that, since Voldemort hasn't attacked either child, neither is the 'Chosen One' at this point. Thus, they are approaching, meaning that they will be chosen soon.
    "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..."
  • By choosing the one he will kill, Voldemort acknowledges them as 'the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord' meaning that they are equal to him, since no inferior could possibly bring him down in his eyes. The power he knows not of is obviously love, as has been stated before.
    "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives..."
  • Here's where it gets tricky. The two are destined to fight each other, and one of them will eventually succeed in killing the other. No one else can do it. Harry can't die, since the Horcrux inside him will likely sustain him (as a Horcrux container can only be destroyed by magical means that far exceed the norm, Harry was likely only in danger from the Basilisk and the FiendFyre throughout the whole series), and Voldemort can't die due to the Horcruxes he has made. By the time the Horcruxes are destroyed, Harry and Voldemort are fixated solely on each other, and are eager to kill the other, not allowing anyone else the privilege.
  • Except for the part where Voldemort did not die at 'the hand of the other'; he died at the hand of himself. Voldemort gets killed by his own reflected Killing Curse.
    • It got reflected off of Harry, and could only have been reflected off of Harry. Harry therefore (with a little liberal intrepration) caused Voldemort to die.
  • Or split the "neither can..." part into two. Now it means neither can live, which means both must die at some point, but somehow one will survive.
  • But still, it seems to fall short. "Neither can die while the other survives" makes a lot more sense in the context of what happens in Deathly Hallows.
  • Or listen to the previous interpretation, neither of them can get a real life while the other survives. Voldemort always fearing Harry and being the predator and Harry being the prey. Harry gets a real life only after Voldemort is killed, till that time the only way to summarize his story was Deus Angst Machina.
  • You shouldn't think about the prophecy as being "destined." Think of it as a Batman Gambit. It's based on people acting in a predictable manner. It never actually says that only Harry can kill Voldemort, or vice versa, people just read that meaning into it because ooh, destiny. The meaning of the last few lines is that the two of them will be driven to fight each other until one of them is dead. Harry is perceived as being the cause of Voldemort's disembodiment, which is an insult to Voldemort's power that he can never forgive. On the other hand, Harry inherited a heroic nature from his parents that won't allow him to forgive Voldemort for what he did to his parents, or what he intends to do to his friends and the world. Thus, neither can go on with their lives while the other survives.
  • Don't you just hate self-fulfilling prophecies?

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