Beeg SMG4 Vs Long SMG4, a war as old as time...
Being a long-running series spanning from 2011, SMG4 has been through many major changes, and unsurprisingly it leads to a lot of wildly varying opinions. A common joke among fans is that the SMG4 fandom is just ten different fandoms rolled into one and the only thing they can agree about is that they like SMG4, and even that's up for debate. open/close all folders
General
- "Classic vs Modern SMG4". This debate refers to the overall switch from the general weirdness and silliness of the original bloopers to the more serious videos and characters when Kevin took over the writing in 2016. Some feel this was the channel Growing the Beard again, citing the more heartfelt and somber moments in the videos, feeling that the change was one for the better. Others feel that the videos were better off being comedic and random as it made videos both fresh and entertaining (and being the main reason why SMG4 became so popular), feeling that the change in tone made videos more stale and predictable. Values Dissonance also plays a part of this, as most modern fans claim SMG4's older videos are nothing but slurs and rape jokes, where classic fans counter that SMG4's older videos are much more than that kind of nature.
- In relation, should Modern SMG4 continue to primarily be a comedy or should it focus more on drama? Those in favor of the former point out that the series started out as a surreal Gag Series where nothing had to be taken seriously and that the more serious storylines have caused the series to stray too far from what got many fans hooked on SMG4 in the first place. Those in favor of the latter point out that the inclusion of story arcs brought about another Growing the Beard moment for both the channel, and Luke and Kevin's careers, and that going back to pure Negative Continuity comedy now after bringing in these elements would be a major whiplash that would alienate the fans who were brought in by those elements. The crew have tried their best to cater to both sides of the argument with the dramedy format, but fan reception varies depending on how much of a balance there is between comedy and drama at any given time and how well the series can prevent a complete whiplash in tone.
- Mario recolors, the YouTube Rangers especially, being largely phased out starting in 2013. As recolors were, and remain, a big staple of SM64 machinimas, this proved especially divisive.
- Many lament that this happened, feeling they had a charm that newer characters, both prominent and background, have never been able to recapture and wish they would, at the very least, make background appearances again. The Rangers get this especially by sheer virtue of being the original main cast. A few people also feel this leaves the rest of the community at a massive disadvantage, as few members have achieved similar popularity to SMG4 despite some having been in the business longer.
- Others felt this was for the best, pointing out several of them were largely Flat Characters, with the possible exceptions of X, FM and Enzo, while also indicating that most, if not all of them, have either become obscure (as mentioned above) or have retired. There are also others who point out the potential risks of having characters based on real people, something best seen with Starman3. And some point out that Luke ultimately has the right to do what he wishes for his series, and he shouldn’t be kept from making the series he wants. For what it's worth, FM
and Enzo have both gone on record to say that they are fine with themselves and the others being gone from the cast, and wish the fans would stop bothering Luke about it.
- The animation quality of the series has been a good source of discussion since the gradual shift from Super Mario 64 to Garry's Mod for recording game footage. Since 2015, SMG4 has essentially become a GMod machinima with Mario assets, to the point that "SM64" (in 2017, after the merge with, and retirement of, "Retarded64") and "bloopers" (in mid-2015) were dropped from the main series' title. The people in support of Garry's Mod point out that there is much more it can do that SM64 doesn't (posing, explosions, tons of models, radically different environments, etc.) and point out that most of the modern cast only have GMod models, so making SM64 models would be difficult at best. Detractors argue that SM64 can also do a lot of the things GMod does with enough effort and that the Stylistic Suck of SM64 carries a certain charm that GMod lacks.note A third group feels that the series shouldn't be using either game anymore and should move on to a better animation program befitting of the direction the show has taken (and being done under Luke and Kevin's animation company), like SFM. Those against this mindset tend to point out that animations of that quality would take far longer than the team could feasibly do in one week and that episodes would either have to be drastically reduced in runtime to fit the 1 week schedule or spaced out much more to get 10 minutes worth of content done, neither of which seems like a good trade-off.
- Since 2016, the use of current trends and memes in videos. One side feels they're entertaining and that for a weekly Saturday morning cartoon-esque series like SMG4, getting video ideas and jokes from such plentiful sources of entertainment is very helpful. Those against it, mostly fans from before 2016, feel that the trends and memes used aren't always funny or utilized in the best way, make the plots unoriginal, and have episodes fall into the trap of using whatever is relevant at the time of upload.
- Since 2017, the decision to keep events such as War of the Fat Italians and Ssenmodnar open to fan submissions due to SMG4's spike in popularity. While most people don't mind the gesture (after all, who would hate a creator interacting with their fans?), some have started to wonder if SMG4 has reached a point where he has too many fans to keep submissions open to the public as many unique submissions are drowned out by more generic and overdone ones. Others are in favor of keeping fan submissions open, but with some tighter quality control.
- The gradual shift toward more Original Generation elements since 2017. Many are fine with it, loving the characters and elements introduced for their originality, lore ties, personalities and cool designs. Characters in particular get more of a pass for being necessary in terms of merch so SMG4 can avoid the legal trappings of monetizing characters from copyrighted properties. Others don't like how increasingly prominent it's all become, with many of the original characters that are introduced tending to steal the show or replace characters that were well-received. Others point out that the series' initial premise was parodying copyrighted material and feel the OC elements taking over flies in the face of everything SMG4 originally stood for, making it stray too far from its original premise as a Super Mario Bros. parody and escalating fears that all of the older copyrighted elements will ultimately be replaced and shafted in favor of newer original characters and lore.
- This fear is only excaberated as of 2023, as many of the original cast that were Nintendo characters are either gone or moved to the background to a extent they're non-existent. And those who continued to be a mainstay, such as Bob and Fishy Boopkins has undergone re-designs (Boopkins twice even), SMG4 and SMG3 had undergone designs as well (conflicting with the lore that was established in the Genesis Arc that Meme Guardians are supposed to resemble their avatar (Mario)), and most recently, the castle in which the series revolved around is destroyed in a permanent way, being replaced with a new 'castle'. The only traces of the original series that are left that is untouched is Mario and Luigi themselves, but fans are left wondering how long they will last.
- Voice acting. Half of the base hates it for being essentially different from the norm or cringy and would rather have SMG4 stick with text and stock voice clips. The other half loves it for being well done (in some cases) and refreshing. This was something only compounded with newer characters using voice acting (Fishy Boopkins, Shroomy, Tari, Axol, JubJub, Belle, Melony), as well as gradually giving it to characters that didn't use it before (SMG4, SMG3, Meggy).
- Saiko Bitchitaru's Heel–Face Turn. Those for it felt it was a natural progression for her character since she was already showing signs of defrosting in episodes prior, getting more and more wrapped up with the main cast's antics, and the episode where she is redeemed, "Luigi's Lesson", making it clear that she doesn't want to be feared by everyone. Those against it felt that it was too out of the blue and that her redemption cost the series one of its most interesting villains, of which have since become scarce outside of the Arc Villains.
- Meggy's humanization has been the subject of heavy debate regarding her character ever since the last episode of The Anime Arc, not helped by Meggy already being divisive beforehand. Supporters feel that her becoming more human made her more unique instead of a generic Inkling and feel it makes her more interesting (despite still looking and dressing like a generic Inkling). Others condemn it, seeing it as needlessly changing her when she was fine before (as well as the new model being creepy-looking to some). This debate heated up further after WOTFI 2020 gave her a voice actor and her series was first teased. Supporters of Meggy had no problem with these developments, eager at the prospect of seeing her break out even more, while detractors concluded that her humanization was done solely to scrub her of any aspects of Splatoon so she could be given her own series, fueling more her claims of being a Creator's Pet. This divide is best shown with this 2021 poll held by NoContextSMG4 on which Meggy design people preferred, which saw Human Meggy win out by a slim 2.8% out of 946 votes.
- The shift in the series' treatment of death after the Anime arc. Though death is still played for laughs most of the time, deaths that happen in arcs are treated as serious and irreversible. Those that are for this feel that the series has done a good job of dividing up when deaths are for laughs and when they are played seriously. They also feel it adds a sense of emotional investment and urgency to arcs in particular by showing that Anyone Can Die during their runs. Detractors feel that trying to treat death as a serious consequence while simultaneously still playing it for laughs has put the series in an awkward position. Many in this camp feel that trying to make irreversible death a concept now, after 8 years of characters surviving many grievous injuries and treating death as a minor inconvenience at most that could be easily undone through multiple methods, is very hard to justify or take seriously, which isn't helped by the series still mostly playing it for laughs. A subset of the former will confess that the concept of killing off characters is good in theory, but feel that the characters who are chosen to get killed off aren't important, utilized, fleshed out, or beloved enough to make it impactful, or in the cases when they are good enough, get calls of being wasted potential since they're offed before they can realize it.
- Axol's death caused the fanbase to erupt in a firestorm to the point that FM had to get involved, with many debates breaking out over whether or not the death should've happened and if it was really necessary for the story to go through with it. Those that supported it felt it was a big way for him to go, was very impactful for the Genesis arc considering the fandom's reaction to it, praised it for finally killing off a prominent member of the main cast after having avoided doing so for the longest time, did well to avoid the criticisms previous deaths garnered and felt it was fitting since Axol had effectively reached the end of his character arc. Some also felt that had he survived, he likely would've just been rendered Out of Focus again compared to his would've-been-girlfriend's Breakout Character status. Those against the death stated that they probably would've been fine with that because at least then the poor guy would've still been alive and happy. Other issues were mostly taken with the execution; Axol was at the height of his character's popularity after the Genesis arc brought him back into the limelight, greatly developed him and gave him the Hope Spot of undergoing Character Rerailment while also getting a girlfriend in Melony, which would've been the perfect reconciliation for his pre and post-Internet Graveyard characterizations... and then he was killed off, leading to many feeling all that development was deliberately thrown away in favor of making the death hurt more. The fallout of the death largely being glossed over in favor of focusing on how Melony was affected by it, compared to how Desti got a whole funeral as a side character, also brought forth accusations of the death largely being done to bolster Melony as a character, which not only made fan reception toward her more divisive than it was already, but left her detractors cynical of her future development.
- Axol's death caused the fanbase to erupt in a firestorm to the point that FM had to get involved
- Anime's increasing influence on the series since 2019, a byproduct of Glitch Productions' direction of wanting to create animesque shows bleeding into SMG4. Some don't mind anime moving out of being a target of mockery as it meant the series could now incorporate the better aspects of that medium into the dramedy format the series adopted following the Waluigi Arc rather than simply poking fun at the most notorious aspects of anime and its fanbases. Others don't like how prominent it has become since 2018, feeling that having multiple characters with otaku and anime aspects in either their designs or personalities on top of the numerous anime tropes, series, and influences being referenced and unironically played straight (such as a Festival Episode) feels cringeworthy and overdone compared to when it was being mocked before.note There are also some who don't mind the shift from mockery but do mind that some of the send-ups and parodies are surface-level and contain some glaring errors regarding the source material that are unintentional, rather than done for comedy.
- The Meggy livestreams. There are many who enjoy them for allowing one of the cast members to interact with the fanbase and for the streams in general being fun events where Lizzie gets to have fun as Meggy. However, the streams have a notorious reputation among the fandom for their perceived cash-grabby naturenote , giving an already overprominent character even more attention, being seen as chasing the VTuber trend, tending to break canon (with one stream outright contradicting the ending of a Sunset Paradise episode), and being where the most rabid parts of Meggy's fanbase are at their most noticeable. That the streams have a tendency to get unlisted shortly after ending with no warning doesn't help these sentiments, with many people saying there shouldn't be streams if the majority of the fanbase can't even see them.
- Axol and Melony's confirmed canon relationship. Detractors of the relationship feel the entire thing is rife with
Unfortunate Implications, with criticisms ranging from what is essentially Kevin's Author Avatar being coupled with a character he has shown great favoritism for to Melony's childlike personality leading people to question if it's even appropriate for her to be in a relationship. Supporters of the relationship tend to find it sweet and counter that Melony only acts like a child, point out that "Mario Babies" shows she has lived a long interesting life, and that there's a difference between being immature and acting immature. Her Character Development during the arc lessened the latter debate and most of the issues with it were rendered moot with Axol's death, but this ended up making the relationship divisive for its perceived role in said event. - The introduction of Kaizo. Does he look cool, or too edgy for SMG4 standards? What doesn't help is that some believe he is a Replacement Scrappy for Axol.
- Redesigning SMG4, SMG3, Bob and Boopkins following War of the Fat Italians 2022 has been a topic of debate; some like the new designs and view them as necessary and experimental. Of course, changing the character designs of such iconic characters (keep in mind that SMG3 and 4 have been Mario recolors for over a DECADE) is bound to have some people upset. Fishy Boopkins' redesign in particular has been the most divisive.
- The Redesigns of the redesigns while generally better received, have received some slight criticism, especially for Boopkins. Some feel that it brings his design closer to how his original Spike design was without losing the qualities of the redesign, others feel it's not that great but better than his original redesign, and others still feel its actually WORSE, due to making him look like a hybrid between a fish and a chicken...and also giving him an ass for some reason. The other redesigns are generally well received, or overlooked in Meggy's case since she just got a slight refresh as opposed to anything drastic.
Episodic
Arcs
- The Waluigi arc, mostly from a meta standpoint. Did it lead to another Growing the Beard moment to the channel, start an Audience-Alienating Era, or is it nothing bad in particular but not a big deal either? It depends a lot on who you ask.
- The Rapper Bob arc. Is it an underrated gem for developing characters like Bob and being more personal in its stakes, or is it nothing special, overdramatic and mostly Filler in the grand scheme of things?
- The Anime arc is the biggest example, with its much higher stakes, development of certain characters, major changes to the status quo and in general being the point where the series fully completed the shift from comedy to dramedy that started with the Waluigi arc. Whether the arc is good or bad for these things heavily depends on who you ask.
- The YouTube arc, depending on who you ask, is either the best arc or the worst. Is it good for bringing SMG3 back into the villain limelight, introducing many new, unique characters and having an awesome finale in WOTFI 2020, or bad for wasting most of its potential, contributing to the oversaturation of the main cast and for coming off as a bit rushed in order to end it with the annual WOTFI like the Waluigi arc did?
- The Genesis Arc. Many loved watching this arc slowly unfold and praise it for having a great villain in Zero, having very high stakes, bringing a few long gone characters back, showcasing some of the most nightmarish content in the channel's history, focusing more on lore and worldbuilding and finally changing the status quo in a major way for the first time since the Anime Arc. Others dislike the arc for completely rewriting the lore of the series, being more drawn out in pacing and thus much longer than the already-long Anime arc, having too much filler (including in plot-relevant episodes), having Meggy return just before the arc's climax (playing into the criticism that the filler was a deliberate effort to have her return from Sunset Paradise before the arc's end, especially since she didn’t contribute all that much to the plot once she did return), coming off as too overdramatic, and for once again ending on a WOTFI, which some felt was even less fitting that the YouTube Arc considering the stakes.
Single Episodes
- "Tubbie TV". Some people think it's just as funny as SMG4's other videos, while others have called it one of his worst videos (Some have even called it "Mario Torture Porn"), mostly because of the heavy use of Teletubbies and Garry's Mod, leading some viewers to think that SMG4 was beginning to care less about using SM64 for his bloopers. This was lampshaded by him in his first comment following its release."i have no idea whats going on in the comments right now lol. alot of you are shocked while others are laughing. so im getting mixed feedback here lol. i thought you guys didn't mind the teletubbies, but i guess too much of it is bad."
- "The Fan-Written Episode" is definitely one of the most controversial episodes in SMG4's catalogue. For context, it was an episode written by the fans in a Mad Libs-style scenario to celebrate the channel reaching 4 million subscribers. The episode the fans ended up writing features almost exclusively the classic cast, with the general randomness of the plot also harkening back to the randomness of the classic era. Even before it was released, it was divisive enough that FM had to comment on it. Modern fans disliked the episode due to it feeling more pandered toward classic fans, feeling the episode was ultimately wasted on having characters from that era return rather than characters like Desti, being completely devoid of modern characters aside from recurring Joke Character Fuego the Water Bottle, and for being too random even for SMG4. As a result, they considered it the worst of the modern subscriber specials, with them putting the blame on the classic fans who worked to upvote the finalized posts. Classic fans, on the other hand, were very happy with the episode due to it finally giving the classic cast a chance to shine after years of the modern cast stealing the show and the randomness of the plot being a welcome change from the more grounded videos. As a result, it was considered by them to be one of the best SMG4 videos in a while, with them telling the disgruntled modern fans that one video without the modern elements won't kill them and to let classic fans be happy.
- "Boys vs Girls" has, well, the boys and girls go against each other. Naturally, this episode had fans divided on which side to take. Some think the girls were right in that the boys sending a bear after Tari did take things too far and that the boys' punishment was fitting. Those on the boys' side believe that the girls came off as hypocritical (for letting the boys get eaten by a giant Cheep Chomp and even claiming "do your worst" earlier) and that SMG4 was showing favoritism towards the girls.
- "The Resurrection" caused the fanbase to erupt in a massive flame war, not helped by it being leaked 2 weeks before its upload, giving more time than usual for debates to grow. Notably, rants and debates grew so bad so fast on Reddit that the moderators of the official subreddit had to disable text posts until the next episode came out. Supporters feel it was a tough, but needed episode that established once and for all that any character who gets Killed Off for Real will stay dead, putting to rest any possibility of them being brought back and invalidating the emotional impact of their deaths. Detractors saw the episode as being extremely clickbait-y and mean-spirited toward the fans who wanted Desti or Greg to get revived by dangling the possibility of it happening for the entire episode, only to yank that chain at the very end and instead reinforce that, no, they will never come back. A subset of the latter confess that they would've been okay with the episode had it led to an arc, as the episode seemed to imply that the gang's failure to resurrect Greg would have consequences, but that nothing came of it, meaning the episode's purpose was solely to debunk any chance of Desti or Greg getting revived, made them sour to it.
- The ending of "If Mario Was The Last Man On Earth" where everyone mauls Mario for ruining their chance at a world record for the biggest pizza. This led to a pretty big debate between fans who felt bad for Mario, blaming his friends' misfortune on the fact that they deliberately isolated themselves from him just for the sake of a world record, and those who say that Mario deserved the punishment since his drunkenness was what caused his friends to leave him in the first place.
- Similarly, the way Mario was treated in "DO NOT ENTER" was also hotly debated. On the one hand, there are those who believe Mario's misfortunes in the episode were pretty karmic considering he spent the entire episode trying to pry into Saiko's private life without permission. On the other hand, others believe that, much like "If Mario was the Last Man on Earth", the way he's punished was too meanspirited, especially since one of the people punishing him in this case was Meggy, who was not only provoked by a situation (slightly) out of Mario's control, but is also usually the first and most active in defending him from the others.
