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Removing Flame Bait
Deleted line(s) 13 (click to see context) :
* UnfortunateImplications: [[spoiler:Franklin being depowered and being revealed to be "subconsciously pretending" to be a mutant]] ended up drawing parallels to the unfortunately widespread notions that someone can pretend to be LGBTQIA+ for "attention" or because it's "trendy," and aren't "genuinely" LGBTQIA+. Furthermore, [[spoiler:the way Franklin "embraced" his mutant culture]] came off as superficial, leading to the implication of cultural appropriation. [[https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1329138653080260616 This resulted in numerous upset fans confronting Slott on the matter]], [[https://bleedingcool.com/comics/one-problem-with-franklin-richards-never-having-been-a-mutant/ as well as articles pointing out the implications.]]
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None
Changed line(s) 8 (click to see context) from:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/VenomDonnyCates Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on her nature.
to:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter:
** When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/VenomDonnyCates Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on hernature.nature.
** Sue is considered to be the weakest character in the run. While Ben got married, Reed took the lead during Reckoning War, and Johnny had a romantic subplot, Sue didn't get a storyline.
** Valeria is considered to be a rather disappointing character in this run. Her rivalry with Moon Girl was never followed up after one issue, and Valeria has only had lines spouting TechnoBabble and going boy crazy.
** When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/VenomDonnyCates Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on her
** Sue is considered to be the weakest character in the run. While Ben got married, Reed took the lead during Reckoning War, and Johnny had a romantic subplot, Sue didn't get a storyline.
** Valeria is considered to be a rather disappointing character in this run. Her rivalry with Moon Girl was never followed up after one issue, and Valeria has only had lines spouting TechnoBabble and going boy crazy.
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Audience Alienating Era has a 5 year waiting period.
Deleted line(s) 1 (click to see context) :
* AudienceAlienatingEra: The book has become very unpopular. Many of the attempts to keep things fresh are blatant and illogical retcons, random character development that doesn't actually make sense, or unoriginal stories in an attempt to leave a mark on the franchise's lore. The regular arcs are often just retreads of old plot points without any fresh spin, such as Doom trying to gain Galactus' powers which is just... exactly that, with no twist whatsoever. Just about the *only* thing that's received well (at least universally) are Ben and Alicia's kids and their family dynamic, and it's been a 40+ issue run thus far.
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Flame Bait now.
Changed line(s) 2 (click to see context) from:
* DracoInLeatherPants: Lyja. Back during [[ComicBook/FantasticFour1961 Tom DeFalco's run]], she got married to Johnny by pretending to be Alicia, she tried to keep him with TheBabyTrap once outed as a Skrull, and even stalked him as "Laura Greene" after he broke with her forever. Nowadays, she's still up to no good, trying to get to Johnny while pretending to be his girlfriend Sky. And yet, some fans keep thinking that she's the ideal girlfriend for Johnny. They would even claim that Alicia had a FaceHeelTurn for using his father's clay to drive Lyja out of the planet.
to:
* DracoInLeatherPants: Lyja. Back during [[ComicBook/FantasticFour1961 Tom DeFalco's run]], she got married to Johnny by pretending to be Alicia, she tried to keep him with TheBabyTrap once outed as a Skrull, and even stalked him as "Laura Greene" after he broke with her forever. Nowadays, she's still up to no good, trying to get to Johnny while pretending to be his girlfriend Sky. And yet, some fans keep thinking that she's the ideal girlfriend for Johnny. They would even claim that Alicia had a FaceHeelTurn for using his her father's clay to drive Lyja out of the planet.
Deleted line(s) 16,18 (click to see context) :
* WhatAnIdiot: The profiteer is back and wants to take her "stars" back to her casino. The mere idea of going back sends Jo-Venn on a killing rage. Alicia takes her father's radiactive clay to deal with the problem.\\
'''You'd expect:''' That she would would use it on the Profiteer, so that she calls her soldiers back and return to whatever place she came from.\\
'''Instead:''' She attempts to use it on Jo-Venn, to prevent him from killing anyone. If they didn't get reinforcements in time, all she would have accomplished would be to soften the defense, risking that the soldiers would prevail and take him.
'''You'd expect:''' That she would would use it on the Profiteer, so that she calls her soldiers back and return to whatever place she came from.\\
'''Instead:''' She attempts to use it on Jo-Venn, to prevent him from killing anyone. If they didn't get reinforcements in time, all she would have accomplished would be to soften the defense, risking that the soldiers would prevail and take him.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 1 (click to see context) from:
* DorkAge: The book has become very unpopular. Many of the attempts to keep things fresh are blatant and illogical retcons, random character development that doesn't actually make sense, or unoriginal stories in an attempt to leave a mark on the franchise's lore. The regular arcs are often just retreads of old plot points without any fresh spin, such as Doom trying to gain Galactus' powers which is just... exactly that, with no twist whatsoever. Just about the *only* thing that's received well (at least universally) are Ben and Alicia's kids and their family dynamic, and it's been a 40+ issue run thus far.
to:
* DorkAge: AudienceAlienatingEra: The book has become very unpopular. Many of the attempts to keep things fresh are blatant and illogical retcons, random character development that doesn't actually make sense, or unoriginal stories in an attempt to leave a mark on the franchise's lore. The regular arcs are often just retreads of old plot points without any fresh spin, such as Doom trying to gain Galactus' powers which is just... exactly that, with no twist whatsoever. Just about the *only* thing that's received well (at least universally) are Ben and Alicia's kids and their family dynamic, and it's been a 40+ issue run thus far.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 1 (click to see context) from:
* DorkAge: The book has become very unpopular. Many of the attempts to keep things fresh are blatant and illogical retcons, random character development that doesn't actually make sense, or unoriginal stories in an attempt to leave a mark on the franchise's lore. The regular arcs are often just retreads of old plot points without any fresh spin, such as Doom trying to gain Galactus' powers which is just... exactly that, with no twist whatsoever.
to:
* DorkAge: The book has become very unpopular. Many of the attempts to keep things fresh are blatant and illogical retcons, random character development that doesn't actually make sense, or unoriginal stories in an attempt to leave a mark on the franchise's lore. The regular arcs are often just retreads of old plot points without any fresh spin, such as Doom trying to gain Galactus' powers which is just... exactly that, with no twist whatsoever. Just about the *only* thing that's received well (at least universally) are Ben and Alicia's kids and their family dynamic, and it's been a 40+ issue run thus far.
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Unfortunate Implications requires a citation for examples
Deleted line(s) 12 (click to see context) :
** The Reckoning as a concept doesn't sit well with some for having regressive implications of a [[WhiteMansBurden "superior" race uplifting a "primitive" one]] with their technology, but that primitive race's inherent savagery inevitably leads them to self destruct after weaponizing it.
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None
Added DiffLines:
** The Reckoning as a concept doesn't sit well with some for having regressive implications of a [[WhiteMansBurden "superior" race uplifting a "primitive" one]] with their technology, but that primitive race's inherent savagery inevitably leads them to self destruct after weaponizing it.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 9 (click to see context) from:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/DonnyCatesVenom Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on her nature.
to:
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/DonnyCatesVenom [[ComicBook/VenomDonnyCates Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on her nature.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Changed line(s) 2 (click to see context) from:
* DracoInLeatherPants: Lyja. Back during ComicBook/TomDeFalcosFantasticFour she got married to Johnny by pretending to be Alicia, she tried to keep him with TheBabyTrap once outed as a Skrull, and even stalked him as "Laura Greene" after he broke with her forever. Nowadays, she's still up to no good, trying to get to Johnny while pretending to be his girlfriend Sky. And yet, some fans keep thinking that she's the ideal girlfriend for Johnny. They would even claim that Alicia had a FaceHeelTurn for using his father's clay to drive Lyja out of the planet.
to:
* DracoInLeatherPants: Lyja. Back during ComicBook/TomDeFalcosFantasticFour [[ComicBook/FantasticFour1961 Tom DeFalco's run]], she got married to Johnny by pretending to be Alicia, she tried to keep him with TheBabyTrap once outed as a Skrull, and even stalked him as "Laura Greene" after he broke with her forever. Nowadays, she's still up to no good, trying to get to Johnny while pretending to be his girlfriend Sky. And yet, some fans keep thinking that she's the ideal girlfriend for Johnny. They would even claim that Alicia had a FaceHeelTurn for using his father's clay to drive Lyja out of the planet.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None
Added DiffLines:
* DorkAge: The book has become very unpopular. Many of the attempts to keep things fresh are blatant and illogical retcons, random character development that doesn't actually make sense, or unoriginal stories in an attempt to leave a mark on the franchise's lore. The regular arcs are often just retreads of old plot points without any fresh spin, such as Doom trying to gain Galactus' powers which is just... exactly that, with no twist whatsoever.
* DracoInLeatherPants: Lyja. Back during ComicBook/TomDeFalcosFantasticFour she got married to Johnny by pretending to be Alicia, she tried to keep him with TheBabyTrap once outed as a Skrull, and even stalked him as "Laura Greene" after he broke with her forever. Nowadays, she's still up to no good, trying to get to Johnny while pretending to be his girlfriend Sky. And yet, some fans keep thinking that she's the ideal girlfriend for Johnny. They would even claim that Alicia had a FaceHeelTurn for using his father's clay to drive Lyja out of the planet.
* EnsembleDarkhorse: Nikki and Jo, the alien children adopted by Ben and Alicia, are regarded as the best things to come out of the run. They're liked for being unique characters with interesting stories and funny dynamics, and not hogging pagetime too much.
* MemeticMutation: Mutantface [[labelnote:Explanation (spoilers!)]]In Dan Slott's run, Franklin is revealed to not be a mutant. Instead, he was passively altering reality to make him a mutant out of his desire to be special. Needless to say, fans, many of whom rallied against the retcon, deride it by calling it mutantface in lieu of blackface or yellowface.[[/labelnote]]
* RomanticPlotTumor: Sky being "soul bonded" to Johnny, which is just an excuse for her to tag along with the Fantastic Four back to Earth. It's treated as supremely important to her culture, but her relationship with Johnny doesn't get much development past saying that their "perfect" science says they're objectively meant to be. All this results in is some angst from making Johnny commit while she chafes at learning that she's not the first person he's been in a relationship with, ultimately setting up the drama bomb of Johnny inexplicably cheating on her with Victorious.
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks:
** [[spoiler:Franklin's depowering and subsequent booting from Krakoa. Many find it to be an unsatisfying ending to such an exciting storyarc and such a stupid retcon on top of it.]]
** Many had taken to aging Franklin and Valeria to be an interesting prospect, but they found themselves disappointed by how they were handled. Franklin was turned into a very stereotypical, bordering on parodic EmoTeen and Valeria's intellect, while present, is generally downplayed in favor of her more of a regular teenage girl complete with boy crazy tendencies when previously she had been TheSociopath. This development doesn't even occur organically due to the TimeSkip for the kids, so the shift is extra jarring given that we last saw Franklin content and happy and not completely basing his identity around his powers, while Valeria was still pursuing absolute science.
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/DonnyCatesVenom Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on her nature.
* UnexpectedCharacter: Surely nobody expected to see [[spoiler:The Watcher]] in the ''Empyre Fallout: Fantastic Four'' comic.
* UnfortunateImplications: [[spoiler:Franklin being depowered and being revealed to be "subconsciously pretending" to be a mutant]] ended up drawing parallels to the unfortunately widespread notions that someone can pretend to be LGBTQIA+ for "attention" or because it's "trendy," and aren't "genuinely" LGBTQIA+. Furthermore, [[spoiler:the way Franklin "embraced" his mutant culture]] came off as superficial, leading to the implication of cultural appropriation. [[https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1329138653080260616 This resulted in numerous upset fans confronting Slott on the matter]], [[https://bleedingcool.com/comics/one-problem-with-franklin-richards-never-having-been-a-mutant/ as well as articles pointing out the implications.]]
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic:
** Franklin's CharacterDevelopment in the Dan Slott run is controversial because of how he is simply a {{Jerkass}}. The comic tries to justify his attitude from his diminishing powers, but fans think that it doesn't excuse his attitude. It gives him no right to use Alicia's, his own aunt's, blindness against her and then demand his family thank him for doing so because he is giving up a piece of himself in lieu of apologizing. He proceeds to whine about being punished. It's even worse when you consider that previous iterations of Franklin had Franklin handle the very same losses and trauma with a lot more maturity, despite being half the age he is in this book.
** Many fans rolled their eyes at Johnny Storm and his actions taken during the "Bride of Doom" arc. Putting aside how he [[spoiler: cheated on Sky with Victorious, many fans believe he was too stupid to be sympathetic when he gets trapped in his flame form by Dr. Doom because he should have known better than to sleep with a servant of [[EvilIsPetty Dr. Doom.]]]]
** Sky, as well. While people generally agree she's more sympathetic than Johnny, even those who take her side often agree that she can be unsympathetic due to her constant nagging and guilting of Johnny to pay attention to her, even when he clearly feels uncomfortable around her. It doesn't help that she forced him into a relationship in the first place. The fact that she's lashed out at Johnny and acted cold when he even ''interacted'' with his exes, and lambasting him for his past endeavors, comes off as unfair.
* WhatAnIdiot: The profiteer is back and wants to take her "stars" back to her casino. The mere idea of going back sends Jo-Venn on a killing rage. Alicia takes her father's radiactive clay to deal with the problem.\\
'''You'd expect:''' That she would would use it on the Profiteer, so that she calls her soldiers back and return to whatever place she came from.\\
'''Instead:''' She attempts to use it on Jo-Venn, to prevent him from killing anyone. If they didn't get reinforcements in time, all she would have accomplished would be to soften the defense, risking that the soldiers would prevail and take him.
----
* DracoInLeatherPants: Lyja. Back during ComicBook/TomDeFalcosFantasticFour she got married to Johnny by pretending to be Alicia, she tried to keep him with TheBabyTrap once outed as a Skrull, and even stalked him as "Laura Greene" after he broke with her forever. Nowadays, she's still up to no good, trying to get to Johnny while pretending to be his girlfriend Sky. And yet, some fans keep thinking that she's the ideal girlfriend for Johnny. They would even claim that Alicia had a FaceHeelTurn for using his father's clay to drive Lyja out of the planet.
* EnsembleDarkhorse: Nikki and Jo, the alien children adopted by Ben and Alicia, are regarded as the best things to come out of the run. They're liked for being unique characters with interesting stories and funny dynamics, and not hogging pagetime too much.
* MemeticMutation: Mutantface [[labelnote:Explanation (spoilers!)]]In Dan Slott's run, Franklin is revealed to not be a mutant. Instead, he was passively altering reality to make him a mutant out of his desire to be special. Needless to say, fans, many of whom rallied against the retcon, deride it by calling it mutantface in lieu of blackface or yellowface.[[/labelnote]]
* RomanticPlotTumor: Sky being "soul bonded" to Johnny, which is just an excuse for her to tag along with the Fantastic Four back to Earth. It's treated as supremely important to her culture, but her relationship with Johnny doesn't get much development past saying that their "perfect" science says they're objectively meant to be. All this results in is some angst from making Johnny commit while she chafes at learning that she's not the first person he's been in a relationship with, ultimately setting up the drama bomb of Johnny inexplicably cheating on her with Victorious.
* TheyChangedItNowItSucks:
** [[spoiler:Franklin's depowering and subsequent booting from Krakoa. Many find it to be an unsatisfying ending to such an exciting storyarc and such a stupid retcon on top of it.]]
** Many had taken to aging Franklin and Valeria to be an interesting prospect, but they found themselves disappointed by how they were handled. Franklin was turned into a very stereotypical, bordering on parodic EmoTeen and Valeria's intellect, while present, is generally downplayed in favor of her more of a regular teenage girl complete with boy crazy tendencies when previously she had been TheSociopath. This development doesn't even occur organically due to the TimeSkip for the kids, so the shift is extra jarring given that we last saw Franklin content and happy and not completely basing his identity around his powers, while Valeria was still pursuing absolute science.
* TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter: When sketches of the Griever was revealed, many fans were curious to see how she would be a villain. Fans, however, were disappointed in the minimal characterization given to the Griever. While many argue that her [[FlatCharacter dull characterization]] was to be expected of cosmic entities, other reject the notion, pointing out [[ComicBook/DonnyCatesVenom Knull]] and [[ComicBook/AvengersNoRoadHome Nyx]] who were similar but had interesting lore surrounding them. Griever, in contrast, has minimal characterization and even less exploration on her nature.
* UnexpectedCharacter: Surely nobody expected to see [[spoiler:The Watcher]] in the ''Empyre Fallout: Fantastic Four'' comic.
* UnfortunateImplications: [[spoiler:Franklin being depowered and being revealed to be "subconsciously pretending" to be a mutant]] ended up drawing parallels to the unfortunately widespread notions that someone can pretend to be LGBTQIA+ for "attention" or because it's "trendy," and aren't "genuinely" LGBTQIA+. Furthermore, [[spoiler:the way Franklin "embraced" his mutant culture]] came off as superficial, leading to the implication of cultural appropriation. [[https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1329138653080260616 This resulted in numerous upset fans confronting Slott on the matter]], [[https://bleedingcool.com/comics/one-problem-with-franklin-richards-never-having-been-a-mutant/ as well as articles pointing out the implications.]]
* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic:
** Franklin's CharacterDevelopment in the Dan Slott run is controversial because of how he is simply a {{Jerkass}}. The comic tries to justify his attitude from his diminishing powers, but fans think that it doesn't excuse his attitude. It gives him no right to use Alicia's, his own aunt's, blindness against her and then demand his family thank him for doing so because he is giving up a piece of himself in lieu of apologizing. He proceeds to whine about being punished. It's even worse when you consider that previous iterations of Franklin had Franklin handle the very same losses and trauma with a lot more maturity, despite being half the age he is in this book.
** Many fans rolled their eyes at Johnny Storm and his actions taken during the "Bride of Doom" arc. Putting aside how he [[spoiler: cheated on Sky with Victorious, many fans believe he was too stupid to be sympathetic when he gets trapped in his flame form by Dr. Doom because he should have known better than to sleep with a servant of [[EvilIsPetty Dr. Doom.]]]]
** Sky, as well. While people generally agree she's more sympathetic than Johnny, even those who take her side often agree that she can be unsympathetic due to her constant nagging and guilting of Johnny to pay attention to her, even when he clearly feels uncomfortable around her. It doesn't help that she forced him into a relationship in the first place. The fact that she's lashed out at Johnny and acted cold when he even ''interacted'' with his exes, and lambasting him for his past endeavors, comes off as unfair.
* WhatAnIdiot: The profiteer is back and wants to take her "stars" back to her casino. The mere idea of going back sends Jo-Venn on a killing rage. Alicia takes her father's radiactive clay to deal with the problem.\\
'''You'd expect:''' That she would would use it on the Profiteer, so that she calls her soldiers back and return to whatever place she came from.\\
'''Instead:''' She attempts to use it on Jo-Venn, to prevent him from killing anyone. If they didn't get reinforcements in time, all she would have accomplished would be to soften the defense, risking that the soldiers would prevail and take him.
----
