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* GameBreakingBug: The game would screw up a character's stats if they reached level 99.
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* GameBreakingBug: The game would screw up a character's stats if they reached There is the legendary "Level 99" glitch, which makes it so that leveling any character to 99 will actually make them lose skills. While this is true, the actual glitch starts activating around level 99.96 or so, with characters like Rika suddenly losing hundreds of technique points, and Wren losing the Positron Bolt skill (it still appears in the menu, but has zero uses available). The androids even start gaining a Mental stat (which, being machines, they normally do not), and Demi gains an impressive number of technique points (but no techniques to use them with.) Several rereleases however have fixed this bug.
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Example does not sufficiently explain how it applies. Wick cleaning
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The tech for the game did require a very expensive cart. The game was first sold at ''double'' the average for games at the time. Fortunately, the game has since been released on several compilations, and is available on the UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole, the ''SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics'' collection on Platform/{{Steam}}, and the Sega Genesis Mini, each at a fraction of that price.
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The tech for the game did require a very expensive cart. The game was first sold at ''double'' the average for games at the time. Fortunately, the game has since been released on several compilations, and is available on the UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole, Platform/VirtualConsole, the ''SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics'' collection on Platform/{{Steam}}, and the Sega Genesis Mini, each at a fraction of that price.
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* ButtMonkey: Hahn, TheSmartGuy, is this for the first part of the game.
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* Cap: Damage caps to 999. [[spoiler: The 4-way combo spell, DESTRUCT, which combines DEBAN + LEGEON + POSIBOLT + MEGID, always does 999 damage]].
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* Cap: {{Cap}}: Damage caps to 999. [[spoiler: The 4-way combo spell, DESTRUCT, which combines DEBAN + LEGEON + POSIBOLT + MEGID, always does 999 damage]].
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* CurbStompBattle: Chaz vs Re-Faze, and it's a beatdown for the ages.
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* EnemySummoner: Some enemies can do this.
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* GuestStarPartyMember: Seth; Rune during his first stint with the party arguably also qualifies.
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* IChooseToStay: [[spoiler: Rika in the ending.]]
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* MagicKnight: Chaz eventually evolves into one; Kyra can be one too.
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* MegaNeko: [[spoiler: Myau.]]
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* OminousFloatingCastle: The [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin aptly-named]] Air Castle.
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* RecurringBoss: [[spoiler: Dark Force and Lassic/[=LaShiec=].]]
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* RobotGirl: Demi, though her behavior is quite human-like.
* SaintlyChurch: The Dezorian churches, as a contrast to Zio's cult.
* SaintlyChurch: The Dezorian churches, as a contrast to Zio's cult.
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* SealedEvilInACan: [[spoiler: The Profound Darkness ... and the Algo System is the seal.]]
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* ShouldersOfDoom: Zio. Also Juza [[spoiler: and Lashiec]].
* SideQuest: The Bounty missions.
* SideQuest: The Bounty missions.
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* SwordOfPlotAdvancement: [[spoiler: Elsydeon]], which doubles as the game's InfinityPlusOneSword.
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* TalkingAnimal: The Musk Cats.
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* VerbalTic: The Musk Cats, meow.
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* WombLevel: The Garuberk Tower.
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* EnoughToGoAround: There are exactly five of the ring thingies that protect one from the radiation of the big bad. Thus conveniently explaining why only one of your previous party members can rejoin the main group for the final battle.
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* GenreDeconstruction: Of early 16-bit JRPGs of the era, although the distinction didn't mean as much at the time of release. The most typical genre-defining tropes, such as the conflict between light and darkness, the idea of chosen heroes, technology and magic coexisting, and even sidequests, are all built into the world and story in a way that justifies them in the text, and some of those tropes [[PlayerPunch leave stinging wounds]] in players' hearts even now. [[GuideDangIt You gotta do some research for some of it]], though.
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* GenreDeconstruction: Of early 16-bit JRPGs [=JRPGs=] of the era, although the distinction didn't mean as much at the time of release. The most typical genre-defining tropes, such as the conflict between light and darkness, the idea of chosen heroes, technology and magic coexisting, and even sidequests, are all built into the world and story in a way that justifies them in the text, and some of those tropes [[PlayerPunch leave stinging wounds]] in players' hearts even now. [[GuideDangIt You gotta do some research for some of it]], though.
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The tech for the game did require a very expensive cart. The game was first sold at ''double'' the average for games at the time. Fortunately, the game has since been released on several compilations, and is available on the UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole, the ''SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics'' collection on UsefulNotes/{{Steam}}, and the Sega Genesis Mini, each at a fraction of that price.
to:
The tech for the game did require a very expensive cart. The game was first sold at ''double'' the average for games at the time. Fortunately, the game has since been released on several compilations, and is available on the UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole, the ''SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics'' collection on UsefulNotes/{{Steam}}, Platform/{{Steam}}, and the Sega Genesis Mini, each at a fraction of that price.
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]] This is also dealt with subtly over the course of the game, as Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound hatred, sounds like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that to Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]] This is also dealt with subtly over the course of the game, as Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
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Removing per Wick Cleaning Projects
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%% * GettingCrapPastThe Radar: Due to overwhelming and persistent misuse, GCPTR is on-page examples only until 01 June 2021. If you are reading this in the future, please check the trope page to make sure your example fits the current definition.
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** If you don't pick up "The Ranch Owner" before the final dungeon opens up (or if you just never visit Mile before that point), the quest won't be available, and Rika won't have anything to say about him, having never met him before [[spoiler: finding his corpse.]]
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* DubInducedPlothole: The spell guide in the English manual claims that the Arows spell revives an ally, when it just wakes up a sleeping ally. Rever is the resurrection spell. The Japanese spell guide doesn't contain this mistake.
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*** There's a ScriptBreakingBug you can trip over if you ''accept'' Silver Soldier, but don't talk to the old man in Zema who properly gives you the quest, before that point. Since part of the quest involves Wren receiving a transmission from Demi, the game skips all the dialogue in Zema over as if you'd already completed the mission if [[spoiler: Demi is no longer at Nurvus to be aware of Daughter's coordinated attacks.]] The mission location becomes permanently inaccessible, and the lady at the Guild will insist you talk to the Old Man, who will insist there's no problem. You can't turn the quest in, so you can't get paid, and you better hope you've already finished all the other missions, because you'll never get another.
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* CaptainObvious: Rika gets a real winner when she finds out that "no creature is unable to see or even sense" a certain thing. Her immediate reaction is to be surprised that she never knew that such a thing existed. ItMakesSenseInContext, since Rika is both educated about the technology of Algo's past and sensitive to energy the same way Rune is, so it ''would'' be especially surprising to her that [[spoiler: Algo has a fourth planet]], but she was ''just told'' that it's impossible to perceive without the PlotCoupon.
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** If you don't clear the Wreckage dungeon until Demi joins the party (which requires you to skip a lucrative dungeon run and backtrack to it after you have access to better stuff), she'll comment on how impressive the surviving technology is. If you wait until Rune joins the party, he'll be the one to say so.
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** If you don't clear the Wreckage dungeon until Demi joins the party (which requires you to skip a lucrative dungeon run and backtrack to it after you have access to better stuff), she'll comment on how impressive the surviving technology is. If you wait until Rune joins the party, he'll be the one to say so. If you wait until Wren joins up, it'll be him.
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** The "Silver Soldier" Guild mission will be unavailable if you don't pick it up before returning from [[spoiler: Rykros.]]
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* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, the Western box art redesigns the characters borderline unrecognizable.
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* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, the Western box art redesigns the characters borderline unrecognizable. This is largely because Sega commissioned ''extremely'' popular fantasy artist Boris Vallejo for an original painting, and his very Western, very idealized-heroic style doesn't translate the game's anime look very well.
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* StatusBuff: Several characters have skills to increase resistence, magic resistence or agility of your party, as well as attack and critical hit rate. In later boss battles, the former skills are pretty much the difference between a balanced fight and a CurbStompBattle.
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* StatusBuff: Several characters have skills to increase resistence, physical resistance, magic resistence resistance, or agility of your party, as well as attack and critical hit rate. In later boss battles, the former skills are pretty much the difference between a balanced fight and a CurbStompBattle.
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* TinMan: Wren. He starts out as TheSpock who has severe difficulty comprehending the logic behind the behavior of his humanoid travelling companions. (particularly the arguments between Chaz and Rune) In the end though, when he [[spoiler: takes Rika back to Motavia to be with Chaz]], he shows signs that he has gained some understanding of human emotion, despite not engaging in it himself. Even before that, he has an insightful discussion with another AI about the role of AI's in the human's lives.
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* TinMan: Wren. He starts out as TheSpock who has severe difficulty comprehending the logic behind the behavior of his humanoid travelling companions. (particularly the arguments between Chaz and Rune) In the end though, when he [[spoiler: takes Rika back to Motavia to be with Chaz]], he shows signs that he has gained some understanding of human emotion, despite not engaging in it himself. Even before that, he has an insightful discussion with another AI about the role of AI's in the human's humans' lives.
* WarmUpBoss: The Igglanova found underneath Motavia Academy is the first boss you face, and as long as there is an open space next to it, it will [[MookMaker spawn a weak Xanafalgue]] instead of attacking you. Even when it does have an opportunity to attack, it won't cause much damage to any of your party members. A second Igglanova can be found at the entrance to Birth Valley, and it isn't any stronger.
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%%* WolverineClaws: Rika's .
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* YouCannotGraspTheTrueForm: Goes hand-in-hand with the LovecraftLite elements. [[spoiler: The Great Light and the Profound Darkness are presented in vague and allegorical ways, the manner in which they interact with the universe defies logic insofar as things we'd call their "emotions" and "thoughts" appear to have ''physical presence'' in our world, and they work on such a scale that the Great Light's lock on The Profound Darkness' dimensional prison is Algol solar system, which is literally constructed of the planets of the system, and with one planet destroyed, the lock is missing a key component...somehow. No one even tries to explain what's going on in the VeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon, and in the fight with The Profound Darkness, the thing (which first appears as a sinuous black blotch amidst the [[AmazingTechnicolorBattlefield psychadelic chaos]]) visibly disintegrates and reconstitutes itself several times over the course of the battle.]]
* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, the western box art redesigns the characters borderline unrecognizable.
* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, the western box art redesigns the characters borderline unrecognizable.
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* YouCannotGraspTheTrueForm: Goes hand-in-hand with the LovecraftLite elements. [[spoiler: The Great Light and the Profound Darkness are presented in vague and allegorical ways, the manner in which they interact with the universe defies logic insofar as things we'd call their "emotions" and "thoughts" appear to have ''physical presence'' in our world, and they work on such a scale that the Great Light's lock on The Profound Darkness' dimensional prison is Algol solar system, which is literally constructed of the planets of the system, and with one planet destroyed, the lock is missing a key component...somehow. No one even tries to explain what's going on in the VeryDefinitelyFinalDungeon, and in the fight with The Profound Darkness, the thing (which first appears as a sinuous black blotch amidst the [[AmazingTechnicolorBattlefield psychadelic psychedelic chaos]]) visibly disintegrates and reconstitutes itself several times over the course of the battle.]]
* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, thewestern Western box art redesigns the characters borderline unrecognizable.
* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, the
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** The Bio-Plant has a corridor that's blocked off by collapsed wreckage, implying that that there was a cave-in, but it's very precise and limited just to the doorway, the rest of the room outside is intact. [[spoiler: Seed later triggers a cave-in that destroys him and the Bio-Plant entirely with such precise control, Zema is unaffected and Birth Valley itself is sealed forever.]]
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Names The Same disambig
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* {{Expy}}: Rune (Lutz of ''Phantasy Star''), Rika (Nei of ''Phantasy Star II''), and Wren ([[NamesTheSame Wren]] of ''Phantasy Star III'') are all ''very'' similar to major characters from previous games in the franchise.
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* {{Expy}}: Rune (Lutz of ''Phantasy Star''), Rika (Nei of ''Phantasy Star II''), and Wren ([[NamesTheSame Wren]] (Wren of ''Phantasy Star III'') are all ''very'' similar to major characters from previous games in the franchise.
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* KillEmAll: Implied late in the game [[spoiler:if Chaz accepts Re-Faze's offer to teach him Megid. Re-Faze nukes him like a cheap burrito... which leaves Rune without a champion and Elsydeon without a wielder.]]
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* YouDontLookLikeYou: As usual, the western box art redesigns the characters borderline unrecognizable.
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* WolverineClaws: Rika's WeaponOfChoice.
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]] This is also dealt with subtly over the course of the game, as
Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]] This is also dealt with subtly over the course of the game, as
as Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
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* BecomeARealBoy: Averted for Wren, Demi, and Seed. Their [[RidiculouslyHumanRobot remarkable human-like qualities]] have nothing to do with a sudden epiphany of human understanding, they're just ''hundreds of years old''. Their calm logic is also never compromised by their feelings. [[spoiler: Upon sending Rika into the world, Seed even self-destructs in order to end the monster outbreak without a moment's hesitation or a sliver of existential crisis.]]
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* AllThereInTheManual: The Phantasy Star Compendium has notes from the creators about some of the things that the game doesn't address, like Zio's [[BodyHorror monsterized hand]], [[TheArtfulDodger Chaz's life before meeting Alys]], [[DeathByOriginStory how Alys became a hunter]], and [[ChildhoodFriends how she and]] [[AloofBigBrother Rune]] know each other.
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* AllThereInTheManual: The Phantasy Star Compendium has notes from the creators about some of the things that the game doesn't address, like Zio's [[BodyHorror monsterized hand]], [[TheArtfulDodger Chaz's life before meeting Alys]], [[DeathByOriginStory how Alys became a hunter]], and [[ChildhoodFriends how she and]] [[AloofBigBrother Rune]] know each other. There was also a cancelled proto-version of Chaz/Rudy and a Nei clone from a comic by Yoshibon that remains compatible enough with the canon lore of the series to imply [[ReallySevenHundredYearsOld Chaz's otherwise unknown origins.]]
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[[quoteright:320:https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/ps_ps4_2756.gif]]
[[caption-width-right:320:[[GrandFinale The explosive finale!]]]]
[[caption-width-right:320:[[GrandFinale The explosive finale!]]]]
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%% Image selected per Image Pickin' thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16629475050.93217000
%% Please do not replace or remove without starting a new thread.
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[[quoteright:350:https://static.tvtropes.
[[caption-width-right:320:[[GrandFinale The explosive finale!]]]]
%%
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!!Provides Examples Of:
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!!Provides Examples Of:examples of:
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Removed Unfortunate Implications pothole
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* [[CallingTheOldManOut Calling the Old God Out]]: Chaz gets this during Le Roof's ExpositionBreak. [[spoiler: When informed of the whole cosmological conflict between the Great Light and the Profound Darkness, Chaz [[{{Deconstruction}} points out]] the [[UnfortunateImplications less-than-optimal consequences]] of the Great Light's [[SealedEvilInACan imprisoning the Profound Darkness]] and then [[HaveYouSeenMyGod vanishing from the known universe]].]]
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* [[CallingTheOldManOut Calling the Old God Out]]: Chaz gets this during Le Roof's ExpositionBreak. [[spoiler: When informed of the whole cosmological conflict between the Great Light and the Profound Darkness, Chaz [[{{Deconstruction}} points out]] the [[UnfortunateImplications less-than-optimal consequences]] consequences of the Great Light's [[SealedEvilInACan imprisoning the Profound Darkness]] and then [[HaveYouSeenMyGod vanishing from the known universe]].]]
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** After [[spoiler: Alys dies]], there's a basket of flowers on the countertop in her room at the inn. If you examine the countertop before that point, Chaz will note that nothing seems out of the ordinary.
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** After [[spoiler: Alys dies]], there's a basket of flowers on the countertop in her room at the inn. If you examine the countertop before that point, Chaz will note that nothing seems out of the ordinary. This is the only time Chaz will comment on not seeing anything regardless of whoever's in the first slot, rather than whoever's in the lead slot complaining (or scolding him) that there's nothing there.
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]]
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]]]] This is also dealt with subtly over the course of the game, as
Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
Chaz's temper nearly rushes the party into danger a number of times, requiring the cooler heads in the team to overrule him in order to stay on task, but no one gives him any grief over it beyond telling him to get it together.
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* ArtificialHuman: Rika, the Numan successor to Nei from ''Phantasy Star II''.
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* ArtificialHuman: Rika, the Numan successor to Nei from ''Phantasy Star II''. The Drama CD also gives us [[spoiler: the numbered Nei clones, the short-lived prototypes of Rika.]]
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* HypocriticalHumor: When Kyra joins the party, Chaz scolds her for letting her temper drive her to do something reckless. This is the same kid who tried to rush Zio twice (but hey, at least he brought friends!).
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* AlasPoorVillain: The party treats Daughter very gently, despite its repeated attempts on Wren's life, [[spoiler: because its facility is an incomplete prototype of what would eventually become Zelan, and the AI itself was designed to take the role of caretaker that would eventually become Wren's.]] Daughter was only awakened from dormancy by the shutdown of Nurvus, a functional death sentence for Motavia's already crumbling environment; it was doing its best to save the world, it just had no way to understand that it was never really part of the world to begin with.
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Up To Eleven is a defunct trope
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** [[spoiler: The Profound Darkness]] would be a more traditional example, as its first and second forms are gigantic [[UpToEleven and even more nightmarish]] versions of the first two fights mentioned above, and its final form is a still-colossal, apparently female, and rather nubile humanoid with [[FlamingHair long, glowing tresses]].
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** [[spoiler: The Profound Darkness]] would be a more traditional example, as its first and second forms are gigantic [[UpToEleven and even more nightmarish]] nightmarish versions of the first two fights mentioned above, and its final form is a still-colossal, apparently female, and rather nubile humanoid with [[FlamingHair long, glowing tresses]].
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* AngerIsHealthyAesop: Megid, the Forbidden Technique that harnesses the user's anger and hatred sound like an evil technique. However after the SecretTestOfCharacter in the Anger Tower, where [[spoiler:Re-Faze does a pretty nasty thing by separating Chaz from his party, then forcing Chaz to fight a copy of Alys, his dead mentor. When Re-Faze offers to teach Chaz Megid after all that happens, the correct option is for Chaz to refuse. If Chaz refuses, he'll point out that Chaz that anger and hatred are natural human emotions, so as long as he remains true to himself, he won't be corrupted by Megid's power. In contrast, Chaz refusing to acknowledge his anger and accepting Re-Faze's offer causes him to fail the test, with Re-Faze killing him in response.]]
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The tech for the game did require a very expensive cart. The game was first sold at ''double'' the average for games at the time. Fortunately, the game has since been released on several compilations, and is available on the UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole and the Sega Genesis Mini, each at a fraction of that price.
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The tech for the game did require a very expensive cart. The game was first sold at ''double'' the average for games at the time. Fortunately, the game has since been released on several compilations, and is available on the UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole UsefulNotes/VirtualConsole, the ''SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics'' collection on UsefulNotes/{{Steam}}, and the Sega Genesis Mini, each at a fraction of that price.
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** Noah [[DubNameChange better known as Lutz]] left his Frade Mantle in a chest in Ladea Tower. It's not ultimate end-game equipment anymore, but it's been moldering in a box for a few millenia.