History MortonsFork / TabletopGames

** However, there is one way to get around one of the more common ones: namely, you can either kill a child of an AlwaysChaoticEvil race, which constitutes killing a child and will result in falling, or you can let the child live, which will result in a ChaoticEvil creature being unleashed upon the world and also cause the paladin to fall... or you can [[TakeAThirdOption adopt the child, raise it, and get it to be a different alignment]]. This trick has been performed more than once, and the good people of [[http://www.1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Lamia_child 1d4chan]] have posted an article on how one guy did this with a [[SnakePeople lamia]].[[note]]Of course, the truly sadistic DM would then throw the child's parents into the mix, meaning that the child was taken from them, making the paladin a kidnapper or an accessory to kidnapping...[[/note]]

** However, there is one way to get around one of the more common ones: namely, you can either kill a child of an AlwaysChaoticEvil race, which constitutes killing a child and will result in falling, or you can let the child live, which will result in a ChaoticEvil creature being unleashed upon the world and also cause the paladin to fall... or you can [[TakeAThirdOption adopt the child, raise it, and get it to be a different alignment]]. This trick has been performed more than once, and the good people of [[http://www.1d4chan.org/wiki/Lamia_child 1d4chan]] have posted an article on how one guy did this with a [[SnakePeople lamia]].[[note]]Of course, the truly sadistic DM would then throw the child's parents into the mix, meaning that the child was taken from them, making the paladin a kidnapper or an accessory to kidnapping...[[/note]]

* In ''TabletopGame/YuGiOh'', Maxx "C" is infamous for forcing these situations upon players. It can be discarded from your hand on either your or your opponent's turn, after which you draw a card every time your opponent Special Summons a monster during that turn. As many decks in the modern game rely on being able to string together at least two or three Special Summons (often significantly more) in a single turn to develop a strong field, being on the receiving end of a Maxx "C" is almost always a lose-lose. You can either continue your turn as normal and execute all your combos, giving your opponent an absurd amount of resources they can use to annihilate you on their next turn, or cut your turn short to deprive your opponent of those resources, but also leave yourself defenseless, meaning your opponent likely won't need them to annihilate you anyway. The only two ways around it are to either ensure your opponent loses before they ''get'' a next turn, or to play a deck that doesn't need more than one Special Summon to make its relevant plays. The [[SelfImposedChallenge Maxx "C" Challenge]] is one DifficultButAwesome way of doing the former; running out of cards in your deck is an instant loss, and the draw effect of Maxx "C" is not optional, thus the objective of the challenge is to Special Summon enough times in one turn to force your opponent to draw their entire deck and instantly lose. Just pray they don't have [[InstantWinCondition Exodia]].

* In ''TabletopGame/YuGiOh'', Maxx "C" is infamous for forcing these situations upon players. What it does is discard itself, at which you can draw a card for each time your opponent makes a Special Summon that turn. As many decks in the modern game rely on being able to string together at least two or three Special Summons in a single turn to develop a strong field (and often significantly more, in combo-oriented builds), this means that it places the players in a lose-lose. They can either cease their Special Summons, which means essentially giving up a turn and leaving the opponent an opportunity to crush their unprotected field, or execute their standard combos, at which they will give the opponent an absurd amount of resources that will be used to annihilate them next turn. The only way around it is to either ensure the opponent loses before they get a next turn, or to play a deck that doesn't need more than one Special Summon to make its relevant plays. There are also a few enterprising combo players that have been known to string together as many summons as possible, [[HoistByHisOwnPetard forcing Maxx "C" users to deck out.]]

* This is the standard strategy (insofar as such games have a strategy) for games like Tic-Tac-Toe and Connect Four: try to set up the board in such a way that you have two simultaneous winning moves, so that in blocking one the opponent must leave the other open.

* In TabletopGame/{{Chess}} and all of the related games (TabletopGame/{{Xiangqi}}, TabletopGame/{{Janggi}}, TabletopGame/{{Shogi}}, TabletopGame/{{Makruk}}), this is a common result of very good strategy on the part of the Morton's Fork wielder (and/or very bad strategy on the part of the forked). If the player saves their cannon, the other bags their chariot. In fact, this comes up so often in chess, it has its own term: The German word zugzwang, a situation where all possible moves are approximately equally bad, and all of them are worse than not moving at all would be, but [[StupidityIsTheOnlyOption "not moving at all" is not an option]] (unless you resign or, under limited circumstances, claim a draw). In fact, "forking" is a term in Chess, which closely resembles Morton's Fork: a situation where two pieces are being attacked; the defender has no choice but to give up a piece.

* In TabletopGame/{{Chess}} and all of the related games (TabletopGame/{{Xiangqi}}, TabletopGame/{{Janggi}}, TabletopGame/{{Shogi}}, TabletopGame/{{Sittuyin}}, TabletopGame/{{Makruk}}), this is a common result of very good strategy on the part of the Morton's Fork wielder (and/or very bad strategy on the part of the forked). If the player saves their cannon, the other bags their chariot. In fact, this comes up so often in chess, it has its own term: The German word zugzwang, a situation where all possible moves are approximately equally bad, and all of them are worse than not moving at all would be, but [[StupidityIsTheOnlyOption "not moving at all" is not an option]] (unless you resign or, under limited circumstances, claim a draw). In fact, "forking" is a term in Chess, which closely resembles Morton's Fork: a situation where two pieces are being attacked; the defender has no choice but to give up a piece.

** The Witch Hunters' blessed {{Silver Bullet}}s are sometimes used as a form of this. Those tainted by Chaos or dark magic are consumed by flame if shot with these bullets; if the target doesn't burn, then they are proven innocent by their clean death. Either way the subject dies, but as the Witch Hunters see it it is better to die untainted than and to live under the sway of evil.

* ''TabletopGame/WarhammerFantasyBattle'': A common trial used in ancient Nehekara to determine whether someone was guilty of murder was to throw them in a pit of scorpions and see if they were able to survive long enough to climb back out. If they did, they were judged to enjoy the favor of Sokth, the scorpion god of treachery and murderers, and to thus be guilty of the crime -- and were thus swiftly put to death by being thrown in a pit of snakes.
** Fighting the Chaos gods leads to this in both Fantasy and 40K: the gods are powered by emotion rather than faith, meaning that anytime a sentient creature feels rage, desire, despair, or hope, it strengthens that particular god. Their own champions are just as likely to turn on each other for favor as on the enemy.

** ''Magazine/{{Dragon}}'': One issue has a list of [[RiddleOfTheSphinx riddles a gynosphinx might use]], with the usual deal that if the [=PCs=] fail to answer them correctly, they're lunch. One of them, to be issued when the sphinx's hunger overcomes her fairness, has as its solution "Kill me". [[TakeAThirdOption The article does, however, state a way for the answer to be phrased so that it does ''not'' give the sphinx permission to attack, yet still answered correctly, in which case she will abide by the rules and let the intended victim live.]]

*** The Iron Snakes Space Marines test accused criminals through the Trial by Wyrm, leaving the accused on a spit of rock in {{Sea Serpent|s}}-infested waters and coming back in six hours to check if they got eaten. If they're still alive then they're considered guilty and executed, since the Iron Snakes don't believe that the serpents would sully themselves by eating a criminal.

* In ''TabletopGame/YuGiOh'', Maxx "C" is infamous for forcing these situations upon players. What it does is discard itself, at which you can draw a card for each time your opponent makes a Special Summon. As many decks in the modern game rely on being able to string together at least two or three Special Summons in a single turn to develop a strong field (and often significantly more, in combo-oriented builds), this means that it places the players in a lose-lose. They can either cease their Special Summons, which means essentially giving up a turn and leaving the opponent an opportunity to crush their unprotected field, or execute their standard combos, at which they will give the opponent an absurd amount of resources that will be used to annihilate them next turn. The only way around it is to either ensure the opponent loses before they get a next turn, or to play a deck that doesn't need more than one Special Summon to make its relevant plays. There are also a few enterprising combo players that have been known to string together as many summons as possible, [[HoistByHisOwnPetard forcing Maxx "C" users to deck out.]]

* In ''TabletopGame/YuGiOh'', Maxx "C" is infamous for forcing these situations upon players. What it does is discard itself, at which you can draw a card for each time your opponent makes a Special Summon. As many decks in the modern game rely on being able to string together at least two or three Special Summons in a single turn to develop a strong field (and often significantly more, in combo-oriented builds), this means that it places the players in a lose-lose. They can either cease their Special Summons, which means essentially giving up a turn and leaving the opponent an opportunity to crush their unprotected field, or execute their standard combos, at which they will give the opponent an absurd amount of resources that will be used to annihilate them next turn. The only way around it is to either ensure the opponent loses before they get a next turn, or to play a deck that doesn't need more than one Special Summon to make its relevant plays. There are also a few enterprising combo players that have been known to [[HoistByHisOwnPetard Maxx "C" users to deck out.]]

* In ''TabletopGamey/YuGiOh'', Maxx "C" is infamous for forcing these situations upon players. What it does is discard itself, at which you can draw a card for each time your opponent makes a Special Summon. As many decks in the modern game rely on being able to string together at least two or three Special Summons in a single turn to develop a strong field (and often significantly more, in combo-oriented builds), this means that it places the players in a lose-lose. They can either cease their Special Summons, which means essentially giving up a turn and leaving the opponent an opportunity to crush their unprotected field, or execute their standard combos, at which they will give the opponent an absurd amount of resources that will be used to annihilate them next turn. The only way around it is to either ensure the opponent loses before they get a next turn, or to play a deck that doesn't need more than one Special Summon to make its relevant plays. There are also a few enterprising combo players that have been known to [[HoistByHisOwnPetard Maxx "C" users to deck out.]]

* ''Magazine/{{Dragon}}'': One issue has a list of [[RiddleOfTheSphinx riddles a gynosphinx might use]], with the usual deal that if the [=PCs=] fail to answer them correctly, they're lunch. One of them, to be issued when the sphinx's hunger overcomes her fairness, has as its solution "Kill me". [[TakeAThirdOption The article does, however, state a way for the answer to be phrased so that it does ''not'' give the sphinx permission to attack, yet still answered correctly, in which case she will abide by the rules and let the intended victim live.]]
* ''TabletopGame/{{Exalted}}'': Storm serpents, elementals born from destructive storms, preferentially attack the pure and innocent during their rampages. This is used in some societies to determine an accused person's guilt. When a storm brews, they're left in the serpent's path; if they're guilty, they'll be ignored and afterwards punished as locally appropriate. If they're innocent, they'll be killed the moment the serpent spots them.

* There's a method of play in bridge called a Morton's Fork Coup, which gives the defender two options, both of which cost him a trick. (The relatively common elimination play that also gives the defender such a choice is not considered the Morton's Fork Coup.)

* ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'':
** A particularly infamous dilemma is the paradox of a paladin being sent by his lord to kill a succubus and then finding out that the succubus had been summoned by a wizard, and that the wizard and the demon genuinely and mutually loved each other. A paladin is bound by an oath that requires him to, among other things, protect pure love and obey commands given by a legitimate authority. Whichever choice he makes, he's violated his oath.
*** Part of the ''Book of Exalted Deeds'' is dedicated to providing the paladin with a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]]: when faced with this dilemma, protecting pure love is more important and takes precedence, and therefore you ignore the order. In fact, you are encouraged to figure out whether the "legitimate" authority might actually be corrupt, because a just leader wouldn't (knowingly) give you such an order. Stories and legends abound in ''D&D'' communities about sadistic Dungeon Masters who present paladin characters with similar scenarios with the sole intent of making paladins fall.
*** Which said, there is actually a ''fourth'' option, albeit one which the lovers are unlikely to agree to. Since demons killed on the Material Plane [[FightingAShadow respawn in the Abyss]] and it's possible to summon a specific creature, it would be quite possible to obtain permission to kill the succubus, then leave before the wizard indicates that he will summon her again. Exploiting ExactWords is one way to avoid LawfulStupid for a paladin.
*** A ''fifth'' option is to contact the king (whether by messenger or in person) with an update of the situation and offer up a different fork: Barring proof of ill intent toward the Crown, the king either rescinds the now demonstrably unjust order, or the paladin ceases to acknowledge him as a rightful and just figure of authority.
** However, there is one way to get around one of the more common ones: namely, you can either kill a child of an AlwaysChaoticEvil race, which constitutes killing a child and will result in falling, or you can let the child live, which will result in a ChaoticEvil creature being unleashed upon the world and also cause the paladin to fall... or you can [[TakeAThirdOption adopt the child, raise it, and get it to be a different alignment]]. This trick has been performed more than once, and the good people of [[http://www.1d4chan.org/wiki/Lamia_child 1d4chan]] have posted an article on how one guy did this with a [[SnakePeople lamia]].[[note]]Of course, the truly sadistic DM would then throw the child's parents into the mix, meaning that the child was taken from them, making the paladin a kidnapper or an accessory to kidnapping...[[/note]]
** The [=GMing=] technique known as the "quantum ogre", in which the players are given a choice of two doors, and the monster or trap ends up being in whichever one they choose to go into.
* In TabletopGame/{{Chess}}, and all of the related games (TabletopGame/{{Xiangqi}}, TabletopGame/{{Janggi}}, TabletopGame/{{Shogi}}, TabletopGame/{{Sittuyin}}, TabletopGame/{{Makruk}}), this is a common result of very good strategy on the part of the Morton's-Fork wielder (and/or very bad strategy on the part of the forked). If the player saves their cannon, the other bags their chariot. In fact, this comes up so often in chess, it has its own term: The German word zugzwang, a situation where all possible moves are approximately equally bad, and all of them are worse than not moving at all would be, but [[StupidityIsTheOnlyOption "not moving at all" is not an option]] (unless you resign or, under limited circumstances, claim a draw). In fact, "forking" is a term in Chess, which closely resembles Morton's Fork: a situation where two pieces are being attacked; the defender has no choice but to give up a piece.
* In ''TabletopGame/{{Deadlands}}'', the Agency and the Texas Rangers are both dedicated to suppressing all knowledge of the truly weird nature of the world since the Reckoning, having established that this would cause a panic, and since the Reckoners are strengthened by fear, this would just play right into their hands. Unfortunately, their efforts at suppressing this knowledge often ''cause'' as much paranoia and fear as the original monsters did, meaning they still strengthen the Reckoners. This is particularly a problem for the Agency, since they A: tend to be rather hamfisted about their coverups, and B: don't do themselves any favors by running around dressed up like TheWildWest version of TheMenInBlack.
* ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'': Many Red and Black cards tend to let the opponent choose the way they're screwed. While on paper this sounds like a win-win situation for you, it actually results in the opponent choosing the LesserOfTwoEvils. The most famous example is [[https://scryfall.com/card/uma/154/vexing-devil Vexing Devil]], a card that either lets the opponent take 4 damage to the face or let you have a 4/3 creature for a measly 1 mana. The highest direct damage card at 1 mana can only deal 3 damage, and no creature exists at 4/3 for 1 mana without some crippling upkeep costs, so it seems like either result is good for you. However, the issue comes in when the opponent may simply have an answer for the devil, and thus allows you to summon it to avoid the damage. Conversely, if he's not going to lose immediately from the life loss, he'll just take the 4 damage because it saves him from wasting a card on killing a 4/3 creature that could be very problematic, especially if the Devil's owner has no other cards in his/her hand or is completely tapped out of mana.
%%** Many Blue cards are meant to create this for your opponent. Notable examples include [[https://scryfall.com/card/c19/85/fact-or-fiction Fact or Fiction]] and [[https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/40/gifts-ungiven Gifts Ungiven]] -- when played correctly, no matter how your opponent chooses the cards, they're screwed anyway.%%ZCE -- how is this an example?
* In ''TabletopGame/{{Exalted}}'', the laws of Cecelyne are written on blue tablets. It is illegal for serfs to look at the color blue. It's also illegal to not know the laws, so they are always violating the law somehow. Cecelyne's laws are deliberately full of such traps, because she believes that [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem the law is merely another tool for the strong to control the weak]].
* ''TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade'': There is a version of this in the Clan Ravnos rule book from the revised edition. It's a character concept for a Ravnos vampire who offers a choice to their enemy by pointing to one of the two guns the Ravnos is holding, whereupon the Ravnos will fire it at him. One of them is an illusion, and the other is a real gun, so it's a fifty-fifty chance. Then the quote ends with this: "Good choice. Unfortunately for you, however, the fake gun was hiding a very real knife."
* ''TabletopGame/ChangelingTheLost'': Given that Changelings and TheFairFolk trade in {{Magically Binding Contract}}s, forcing an enemy into a position where they have no choice but to violate one of their Pledges and suffer the Fate-ordained consequences is a very valid gameplay strategy.

*** A **fifth** option is to contact the king (whether by messenger or in person) with an update of the situation and offer up a different fork: Barring proof of ill intent toward the Crown, the king either rescinds the now demonstrably unjust order, or the paladin ceases to acknowledge him as a rightful and just figure of authority.

* One issue of ''Magazine/{{Dragon}}'' has a list of [[RiddleOfTheSphinx riddles the gynosphinx might use]], with the usual deal that if the [=PCs=] fail to answer them correctly, they're lunch. One of them, to be issued when the sphinx's hunger overcomes her fairness, has the solution "Kill me". [[TakeAThirdOption The article does, however, state a way for the answer to be phrased so that it does ''not'' give the sphinx permission to attack, yet still answered correctly, in which case she will abide by the rules and let the intended victim live.]]
* ''TabletopGame/{{Paranoia}}'' is all about setting up situations where The Computer and your secret society both assign you dangerous, mutually contradictory goals, and have the means to punish you if you don't deliver. And then you have to deal with your fellow Troubleshooters and all of ''their'' contradictory goals.

* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'':
** Certain articles present this as the key to winning. If you have a squad of [[MoreDakka Devastators]] positioned to cover an objective, for instance, and your foe has troops sitting on that objective, then you have presented him with two bad options: sit where you are and get blasted to pieces, or abandon a key position to go chasing after the enemy. Another one courtesy of the Inquisition: a person accused of heresy is put in an arena with an unarmed, unarmored Grey Knight ({{Space Marine}}s with GodEmperor-given powers). If the Grey Knight kills the accused, obviously the Emperor willed it that one of His most faithful servants destroy an enemy. If the accused somehow wins, he is obviously in league with the Ruinous Powers, and is executed on the spot.
** One mentioned in the background is the way a particular Inquisitor handles pleas in his court. If you plead guilty then you are (obviously) guilty. However if you plead not-guilty then you are automatically guilty of the crime of wasting the Inquisitions time trying you and can be immediately sentenced for that crime (which given that this is 40K presumably means immediate execution).
** Commander Kubrik Chenkov is well-known for sending [[ZergRush vast amounts of troops]] into fortified citadels and other similar {{Suicide Mission}}s...and shooting those who understandably have reservations about such orders. Your odds are slim working under him regardless of your decision.

** This is the concept of the "Distraction Carnifex". Named after the Tyranid Carnifex from 4th edition, where you could mod it to be ridiculously cheap (letting you fit 6 of them into a single list during a time when two medium tanks were considered an extravagance), the idea is to buy something big and threatening, but relatively cheap in cost and hard to put down, and throw it at the enemy. Your enemy has now two choices: spend a turn to get rid of a relatively minor target and let the opposing army get a free turn OR ignore it and hope it doesn't cause too much damage. To counter people simply ignoring them, most players either give them some kind of a weapon with a guaranteed return (usually an extremely powerful one-shot weapon that can be fired on the move, in the hopes it takes down something of equal value), or kit them out for close combat (which will rob a shooting unit of their shooting phase regardless of what they actually do). This has led to at least one instance of the victim [[TakeTheThirdOption choosing to run in circles]] a la Benny Hill.

** A particularly infamous dilemma was the paradox of a paladin being sent by his lord to kill a succubus and then finding out that the succubus had been summoned by a wizard, both of whom genuinely and mutually loved each other. A paladin is bound by an oath that requires him to, among other things, protect pure love and obey commands given by a legitimate authority. Whichever choice he makes, he's violated his oath.
** Part of the Book of Exalted Deeds was dedicated to providing the paladin with a [[TakeAThirdOption third option]]: when faced with this dilemma, protecting pure love is more important and takes precedence, and therefore you ignore the order. In fact, you are encouraged to figure out whether the "legitimate" authority might actually be corrupt, because a just leader wouldn't (knowingly) give you such an order. Stories and legends abound in ''D&D'' communities about sadistic Dungeon Masters who present paladin characters with similar scenarios with the sole intent of making paladins fall.

* ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering''
** Many blue-colored cards are meant to create this for your opponent. Notable examples include [[http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382930 Fact or Fiction]] and [[http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370368 Gifts Ungiven]] -- when played correctly, no matter how your opponent chooses the cards, they're screwed anyway.
** Conversely, many red and black cards tend to do the opposite; let the opponent choose the way they're screwed. While on paper this sounds like a win-win situation for you, it actually results in the opponent choosing the LesserOfTwoEvils. The most famous example is [[http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=278257 Vexing Devil]], a card that either lets the opponent take 4 damage to the face or let you have a 4/3 creature for a measly 1 mana. The highest direct damage card at 1 mana can only deal 3 damage, and no creature exists at 4/3 for 1 mana without some crippling upkeep costs, so it seems like either result is good for you. However, the issue comes in when the opponent may simply have an answer for the devil, and thus allows you to summon it to avoid the damage. Conversely, if he's not going to lose immediately from the life loss, he'll just take the 4 damage because it saves him from wasting a card on killing a 4/3 creature that could be very problematic, especially if the Devil's owner has no other cards in his/her hand or is completely tapped out of mana.

* There is a version of this in the Clan Ravnos rule book from the revised edition of ''TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade''. It's a character concept for a Ravnos vampire who offers a choice to their enemy by pointing to one of the two guns the Ravnos is holding, whereupon the Ravnos will fire it at him. One of them is an illusion, and the other is a real gun, so it's a fifty-fifty chance. Then the quote ends with this: "Good choice. Unfortunately for you, however, the fake gun was hiding a very real knife."