History Main / IdealistVsPragmatist

* ''Manga/DeathNote'': Light Yagami, despite having a god complex and being self-convinced that he is the hero, is a Pragmatist who sweeps the world of its most notorious criminals including those who are on the run or somehow got away with their crimes by exploiting the system. As a result of his actions, crime and wars around the world plummet to an all-time low. The Anti-Kira Task Force and its affiliates are Idealists, with some to the point of near [[KnightTemplar fanaticism]]. While they have lines they do not cross, they strongly believe that killing is wrong no matter who the victim is or what the circumstances are, and they especially treat the Kiras as nothing more than monsters who deserve to be locked up for life.

* ''Anime/CodeGeass'': Suzaku is an Idealist who refuses to kill civilians, let alone resort to terrorism, believing everything should be done through faith in the system. Lelouch is a Pragmatist who finds the Britannian aristocracy as too cut off from reality and that forcing them out is the only solution.

* ''FanFic/KnightOfDeathAndRebirth'':

* ''FanFic/TheMountainAndTheWolf:'' The Wolf (aka Wulfrik the Wanderer, the High Executioner of the Chaos Gods of ''TabletopGame/WarhammerFantasy'') repeatedly comes into conflict with his own side (that is, Daenerys' side, but he also arranges to provide Cersei with WarElephants) several times due to his pushing for ever-less restrained action, most notably over how the siege of King's Landing should be handled. He seems convinced that Daenerys has a goal and personality typical of a Chaos warlord, and seems genuinely confused that she wouldn't try to act like one. His sheer size and strength keep the confrontations from becoming physical, and while he's never truly convinced by Tyrion or Daenerys, he only takes out his frustration at being contradicted on inanimate objects.

* ''[[Literature/TheBridgeKingdomArchives Inadequate Heir ]]'': When philosopher prince Keris of Maridrina and general Zarrah of Valcotta first meet, this seems to be the case. Over the course of the book it turns out, however, that Keris can be a skilled politician ready to manipulate everyone around him, while Zarrah is at one point ready to die for her ideals.

* ''Franchise/MassEffect'' lets Commander Shepard choose between the two options with the Paragon vs Renegade system. Paragon choices and actions are idealistic- appealing to someone's better nature and using dipomacy. Renegade choices are pragmatic- letting a few hostages die to stop a terrorist from escaping, executing criminals to insure they can't make plea bargains to escape justice, and threatening people to get them to do what you want. In [[VideoGame/MassEffect the first game]], every time you faced a major decision you'd always have one squad member who would argue the paragon choice and one who'd argue the renegade choice. Who was who varied based on squad composition, with the Paragon-Renegade scale being Kaidan, Liara, Tali, Garrus, Ashley, Wrex. So if Wrex was in the squad he'd always argue for the pragmatic choice while the other squad member argued for the idealist choice, while Tali would argue for the idealist choice if she were teamed with Garrus or Ashley but the pragmatic choice if teamed with Liara or Kaidan.
* Introduced in the Smile of Dreamer Event in ''VideoGame/ProjectSekai'': Emu wants to preserve the happiness and memories of the park, but her brothers are more concerned about the financial troubles of the park and want to rebrand all of it, taking its original purpose and memories away with it.

See also TeamMercyVsTeamMurder. Compare ToBeLawfulOrGood, where the Idealist and Pragmatist could be on either side. When such a conflict occurs, it results in WhiteAndGrayMorality or even a MoralityKitchenSink. See also CantDefaultToMurder, in which a usually very violent pragmatist is held back by a more pacifistic idealist.

* This is one of the causes of conflict between Lelouch and his childhood friend Suzaku in ''Fanfic/CodePrime'': As in [[Anime/CodeGrass canon]] Lelouch is the pragmatist whereas Suzaku is the idealist. Lelouch, being a former prince of Britannia, knows full well how corrupt the empire is, especially since they’re allied with the Decepticons, and wishes to topple the current system. Suzaku however, believes that achieving a goal through dishonorable means is no victory, and hopes to become an InternalReformist, even when Optimus warns that he might end up InherentInTheSystem instead. [[spoiler:It takes the SAZ Massacre, and Lelouch calling him out on it when he tries to blame him for the Massacre occurring, as well as asking him if he’s gonna start blaming Euphemia for his mistakes, does Suzaku realize that he had no chance of changing Britannia, and joins the Black Knights against the empire and the Decepticons.]]

* This is one of the causes of conflict between Lelouch and his childhood friend Suzaku in ''Fanfic/CodePrime''. Lelouch is the pragmatist whereas Suzaku is the idealist. Lelouch, being a former prince of Britannia, knows full well how corrupt the empire is, especially since they’re allied with the Decepticons, and wishes to topple the current system. Suzaku however, believes that achieving a goal through dishonorable means is no victory, and hopes to become an InternalReformist, even when Optimus warns that he might end up InherentInTheSystem instead. [[spoiler:It takes the SAZ Massacre, and Lelouch calling him out on it when he tries to blame him for the Massacre occurring, as well as asking him if he’s gonna start blaming Euphemia for his mistakes, does Suzaku realize that he had no chance of changing Britannia, and joins the Black Knights against the empire and the Decepticons.]]

Compare ToBeLawfulOrGood, where the Idealist and Pragmatist could be on either side. When such a conflict occurs, it results in WhiteAndGrayMorality or even a MoralityKitchenSink. See also CantDefaultToMurder, in which a usually very violent pragmatist is held back by a more pacifistic idealist.

* ''Fanfic/ASupeOfAMan'': Lois is practical to Clark's idealism. [[spoiler: When Clark angrily confronted Hughie and Lois about their membership in Boys, Lois admits that she's not happy to resort to justifying murders, extortion, and breaking the law, but she was screwed over by a system that protects the abuses of Supes. She believes that Clark can't understand because he has the power of a god. However, Clark can be more accurately described as realistically pragmatic than a pure idealist. While he is tempted to act like a vigilante, not only could he endanger others if he lost control but murdering the likes of Homelander would be detrimental to his reputation, and he doesn't have the support to do that. In short, while he understands Lois and Hughie need to be vigilantes, there are serious consequences, pragmatic and idealistic, if he acts out]].

** Yang Wenli is an Idealist who hates fighting and would rather win without casualties but prefers obeying his superiors and doing things through the democratic system, even when the people in charge and their decisions state otherwise. Yang makes notable successes such as the capture of Iserlohn Fortress without a single loss, but his inactivity also causes millions to die, [[spoiler:the Alliance to surrender, and himself getting killed before he could take power and practice his beliefs.]] While Reinhard von Lohengramm does have a code (i.e. preferring to gain power through merit over blackmail), he is mainly a Pragmatist who prefers doing things efficiently, even if it means jumping the chain of command and angering his superiors. Reinhard has notable failings such as the nuking of Westerland, yet he ends up being more effective in war and accomplishes far more such as [[spoiler:reforming the Galactic Empire, persecuting the corrupt politicians of the conquered Free Planets Alliance, and defeating the AncientConspiracy behind the scenes.]]

* This is the central crux of the conflict between ''ComicBook/{{Daredevil}}'' and ''ComicBook/ThePunisher''. Both characters have few to no superhuman enhancements and deal primarily with street-level crime, but their opposing philosophies lead to vastly different approaches. Daredevil is a lawyer and a Christian who believes [[ThouShaltNotKill taking any life, no matter how bad, is morally and ethically wrong]] and that the justice system should sort out criminals since that’s what it was created to do in the first place. The Punisher, on the other hand, believes [[ViolenceIsTheOnlyOption killing criminals is the only way to stop them for good]] and has [[KillEmAll taken to gunning down every last one he meets]]. What makes the conflict interesting is that [[WorthyOpponent both men have an amount of respect for each other]] regardless of their methods and it’s [[BothSidesHaveAPoint never made explicit who’s supposed to be “right”]].

* ''LightNovel/HowARealistHeroRebuiltTheKingdom'' shows the contrast between the summoned hero Souma of the Eflreiden Kingdom and Empress Maria Euphoria of the Gran Chaos Empire. Souma is a Machiavelli fanboy who takes a realistic approach while Empress Maria is an idealistic ruler loved by her people yet is inexperienced in ruling herself, relying on her sisters to govern for her. Souma himself defines their contrast as Maria bring good at heart but having the FatalFlaw of always anticipating the best of all circumstances, whereas he has foresight over every worst-case scenario.
* ''Literature/LegendOfTheGalacticHeroes'':
** Yang Wenli is an Idealist who hates fighting and would rather win without casualties but prefers obeying his superiors and doing things through the democratic system, even when the people in charge and their decisions state otherwise. Yang makes notable successes such as the capture of Iserlohn Fortress without a single loss, but his inactivity also causes millions to die, [[spoiler:the Alliance to surrender, and himself getting killed before he could take power and practice his beliefs.]] While Reinhard von Lohengramm does have a code (i.e. preferring to gain power through merit over blackmail), he is mainly a Pragmatist who prefers doing things efficiently, even if it means jumping the chain of command and angering his superiors. Reinhard has notable failings such as the nuking of Westerland, yet he ends up being more effective in war and accomplishes far more such as [[spoiler:reforming the Galactic Empire, persecuting the corrupt politicians of the conquered Free Planets Alliance, and defeating the AncientConspiracy behind the scenes.]]
** Reinhard's aides are Oberstein and Kircheis [[spoiler:and later Hildegard]]. Kircheis acts as a voice of reason to prevent Reinhard to avoid the same abuses as many officers and nobles of the Goldenbaum Dynasty. Oberstein does anything to solidify the rule of the new dynasty, such as allowing Westerland's destruction to destroy the nobles' hope to bring back the status quo, [[spoiler:manipulating events that leads to Ruenthal's rebellion and eventual death, and a massive crackdown on former Free Planets Alliance worlds to solidify the rule of the Goldenlowe Dynasty]].

* ''Anime/LegendOfGalacticHeroes'':

* ''[[Inadequate Heir Literature/TheBridgeKingdomArchives]]'': When philosopher prince Keris of Maridrina and general Zarrah of Valcotta first meet, this seems to be the case. Over the course of the book it turns out, however, that Keris can be a skilled politician ready to manipulate everyone around him, while Zarrah is at one point ready to die for her ideals.

* ''[[Inadequate Heir Literature/TheBridgeKingdomArchives]]'': When philosopher prince Keris of Maridrina and general Zarrah of Valcotta first meet, this seems to be the case. Over the course of the book it turns out, however, that Keris can be a skilled politician ready to manipulate everyone around him, while Zarrah is at one point ready to die for her ideals.

* ''LightNovel/HowARealistHeroRebuiltTheKingdom'' shows the contrast between the summoned hero Souma of the Eflreiden Kingdom and Empress Maria Euphoria of the Gran Chaos Empire. Souma is a Machiavelli fanboy who takes a realistic approach while Empress Maria an idealistic ruler loved by her people yet is inexperienced in ruling herself. Souma himself defines their contrast where Maria is good at heart at all time but has the FatalFlaw of always anticipating the best of all circumstances, whereas he has foresight over every worst-case scenario.

* ''Anime/PsychoPass'': Inspector Akane Tsunemori is one of the few idealistic characters in a dystopian futuristic environment where the Sibyl System uses pragmatic and morally questionable means to instill peace and order in Japanese society. Akane's idealism is challenged throughout the show which tends to bite back at her. But she still retains her ideals in a much more realistic take. Her Enforcer partner Shina Kougami, who is a MoralPragmatist, trusts her very much and believes her idealism can balance out her role as an Inspector.

** His partner Bernard is an Idealist who believes that Hosts and humans have a future together. This clashes with Ford's and Dolores' beliefs throughout the first two seasons. And despite the sufferings, he experienced [[spoiler:such as his true identity as a Host]], Bernard still believes that Hosts and humans can live together. In fact, Dolores respects him which is why she entrusts him the future of their species [[spoiler:after she seemingly died in the Season 3 finale]].

On the other side, "The end justifies the means." This quote is misattributed Niccolo Machiavelli as his seminal work "The Prince" was one of the first essays on extreme pragmatism in government and diplomacy. The very term "Machiavellian" is today used to describe someone who does not care if their actions are [[ZeroPercentApprovalRating highly ill-received]] as long as the job is done in the most effective way possible. They would sacrifice one of their own if it means saving far more people than otherwise. They would have a more authoritarian aspect as well, keeping their enemies tied up in lies and political games while using military force against foes who cannot be reasoned with. It fits well for a ByronicHero and any kind of AntiHero who is not too tied to morality, though he might be seen as [[ATrueHero a hero anyway]] by making decisions no one else could have made. Of course, this can also backfire as using force, or even the threat of military force, [[MachiavelliWasWrong can create the opposite effect]] and make a situation even worse.

* This is seen in ''Manga/MoriartyThePatriot'' with Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. Their very first mystery together in "A Study in 'S' " ends with Sherlock considering an offer to murder a man in cold blood to get answers about The Lord of Crime while John is entirely horrified. Unfortunately for John, this is only the beginning of this dynamic.

* ''Anime/PsychoPass'': Inspector Akane Tsunemori is one of the few idealistic characters in a dystopic futuristic environment where the Sibyl System uses pragmatic and morally questionable means to instill peace and order in Japanese society. Akane's idealism is challenged throughout the show which tends to bite back at her. But she still retains her ideals in a much more realistic take. Her Enforcer partner Shina Kougami, who is a MoralPragmatist, trusts her very much and believes her idealism can balance out her role as an Inspector.

* Franchise/TheDCU: Whether or not killing is justified under any circumstances has been a source of conflict between Franchise/WonderWoman and other superheroes, particularly Franchise/{{Superman}} and Franchise/{{Batman}}. The most (in)famous example is when Diana killed Maxwell Lord in order to stop him from using Superman to slaughter people in the lead up to ''ComicBook/InfiniteCrisis''; while Diana felt the act was necessary to stop Max's murders, Superman and Batman felt she had betrayed what the League stood for. Note that this was not the first time Diana had killed someone, just the first time she'd killed someone who was human.

* One of the aspects that made Nick Fury so unpleasant in ''ComicBook/UltimateMarvel'' is that he actively revels in the Pragmatist side of this dichotomy, enjoying chances to KickTheDog under the guise of IDidWhatIHadToDo to the point he often ''doesn't bother'' trying to find other solutions (for example, in the Ultimate Power crossover he dismisses the risk that they'll destroy the universe by stating it isn't ''his'' [[ExpendableAlternateUniverse universe so he doesn't care]]). The Ultimates themselves often hew closer to the Pragmatist side as well, being much more willing to kill than their mainline counterparts the Avengers. In contrast, Spider-Man is easily the most heroic character in Ultimate Marvel, doing his damnedest to actually ''help'' people.