History Main / GoodIsOldFashioned

*** Nietzsche wasn't pro-Fascist in the slightest. If anything, he was pro-Anarchist. His philosophies, which were ultra-individualist and opposed to any kind of collectivism were twisted by his proto-Nazi sister to suit in her racial and political views, leading to a lot of MisaimedFandom in Nazi Germany.
**** To call Nietzsche pro-anarchist is also a mischaracterisation, though - anarchism is generally a collectivist or communistic theory, with only very VERY rare "egoist anarchists"; certainly during his lifetime, anarchists were only gradually becoming a distinct philosophical grouping apart from communists. The whole idea of doing whatever you can get away with (which is essentially what the "Napoleons of this world can do whatever they want to achieve their greatness" means when you translate it out of pretentious hack-philosophy. Sorry, is my [[YourMileageMayVary YMMV showing?]]) is alien to the overwhelming majority of anarchists, and Nietzsche certainly never identified himself with them.
***** While it starts getting off-topic the arguments around the roots of anarchy seems to be a source of sometimes heated debates (was X an individual anarchist? communist anarchist? etc.), you have also anarchism without adjectives. While Nietzsche was for sure outside the mainstream anarchy the exact borders are sometimes determined by self-ascribed adjectives and view of main enemy rather then the fundamental differences in ideology (well - definition of heretic is "someone who shares most, but not all, of your belives" ;) ).
** Nevertheless, Nietzsche still claimed that people need to evolve beyond the mere concepts of good and evil, so it still fits the trope.
*** Technically not. Nietzsche's Superman determines his own Good and Evil -- he follows his morals because he made them and truly believes in them, instead of someone from above commanding him to obey them. This tends to be {{Flanderized}} into a JerkAss who does whatever he feels like without qualms, but it's quite far from Nietzsche's original ideal.
**** The problem is that Neitzche may not have intended it, but he certainly encouraged it. His ideals place no slightest defense against the ubermensch taking power if he can. As it turns out, people who abandoned all morality can, iunder the right circumstances, take unlimited power. And what they do with it is very Nietzchist, just not the same as Nietzche.

** The problem with being 'chivalrous' in a modern context is that it the chivalric code didn't give a damn how chevaliers (that was, knights- commoners couldn't actually practice the chivalric code- check out [[TheCantaburyTales]] The Miller's Tale]] for how a commoner who attempted it would be regarded) treated the overwhelming majority of people of either sex; 'chivalry' is about members of the elite honouring each other, not being courteous to the world in general. The etiquette that most people associate with 'back then' is almost entirely the code of the rising middle class from about [[NewerThanTheyThink}} the late eighteenth century]], when newly-wealthy people of no breeding, as George Bernard Shaw explained it, tried to distinguish themselves from 'people of even less breeding'.

-->'''Jones:''' ItBelongsInAMuseum!\\

-->A speech on willpower in this day in age? I did not know people still believed in such silly notions.
--> -- '''Rozalin''', ''{{Disgaea}} 2''

-->'''Jones:''' It belongs in a museum!\\

* In ''ManyWaters'', the nephilim and their followers have this attitude, in contrast to their "brothers", the seraphim.

ThoseWackyNazis often have a tendency to express sentiments of this fashion; whilst they may not actually identify themselves as evil, they will often sneer to their more democratic foes that their beliefs are 'outdated', and that the pure Aryan way is the inevitable way of the future. Given what the judgement of history ended up [[AcceptablePoliticalTargets being against the Nazis and their followers]], a Nazi who makes this assertion will usually be played for the historical irony, especially if they're making it any time pre-1945.

*** One issue of WorldWarHulk did mock her for her speach though.

** Communist tracts of the time also made use of this trope, though they tended to portray themselves as 'true' democrats and the liberal democracies of the West as being undemocratic because they didn't permit unlimited power to the majority. A favorite of Communist propagandists of the 1930s in the USA was that the Constitution was outdated, obsolate, a 'barrier to democracy'.

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<<|MoralityTropes|>>
<<|StockPhrases|>>
<<|GoodnessTropes|>>

ThoseWackyNazis often have a tendency to express sentiments of this fashion; whilst they may not actually identify themselves as evil, they will often sneer to their more democratic foes that their beliefs are 'outdated', and that the pure Aryan way is the inevitable way of the future. Given what the judgement of history ended up [[AcceptablePoliticalTargets being against the Nazis and their followers]], a Nazi who makes this assertion will usually be played for the historical irony, especially if they're making it any time post-1945.

** Although, to be honest, calling the Imperium "good" is...[[BlackAndGreyMorality let's say]] "[[DesignatedHero misguided".]]

shaka vs william

-->'''Jones:''' It belongs in a museum!\\
'''Villain:''' So do you.
--> -- ''[[IndianaJones Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade]]''

-->A speech on willpower in this day in age? I did not know people still believed in such silly notions.
--> -- '''Rozalin''', ''{{Disgaea}} 2''

The villain wants to sneer at TheHero. So what does he do? He calls him, and his [[IncorruptiblePurePureness stern moral code]], old-fashioned. Or out-of-date, obsolete, quaint, antiquated, etc. Expect the phrase "this day and age" to come up. The AntiHero may use the StockPhrase, as well, as may indeed, any character whose moral code is somewhat laxer than TheHero's. But the most characteristic users are the {{Ubermensch}}, NietzscheWannabe, and the NinetiesAntiHero.

A KnightInSourArmor or other characters wearing JadeColoredGlasses, if only somewhat cynical, may regard it as amusing, for its impracticality, tinged with admiration, for its honor. The worse a character is, the more likely the attitude will be contempt.

They may even explicitly describe the code of honor and [[BornInTheWrongCentury the character who holds it]] as more suitable for [[YeGoodeOldeDays a previous time]]. If the opportunity ever arises for contrast, it may be clear that the ideals always were ideals, though, in idealistic stories, it actually may have been better in the past.

The character will seldom explicitly characterize himself [[{{Foil}} in contrast]] as evil. [[IDidWhatIHadToDo "Practical," "pragmatic" and "realistic"]] are more likely -- as are "up-to-date" or "way of the future" or other terms indicating that their side is in fashion.

Occasionally, a character may ironically say that he is not up-to-date and as current as the villain, so the villain will just have to live with his reactions. Sometimes, more seriously, TheHero responds that moral considerations do not change with times and that his code is perennial.

Invariably a way of rousing sympathy for the character by [[TheWoobie showing him being abused]].

Note that it applies only to characters whose goodness, rather than any other trait, is called old-fashioned. But it can double up with the character [[GoodOldWays actually being old-fashioned]] in some manner, or defending himself as living according to the GoodOldWays.

Logically, this could also be phrased as we bad guys are up-to-date, in fashion, current, etc., and sometimes it is (as in the NewEraSpeech), but normally not, because calling good old-fashioned presents evil as the norm and good the divergence. It may go hand-in-hand with declaring yourself AboveGoodAndEvil.

ThoseWackyNazis often have a tendency to express sentiments of this fashion; whilst they may not actually identify themselves as evil, they will often sneer to their more democratic foes that their beliefs are 'outdated', and that the pure Aryan way is the inevitable way of the future. Given what the judgement of history ended up [[AcceptablePoliticalTargets being against the Nazis and their followers]], a Nazi who makes this assertion will usually be played for the historical irony, especially if they're making it any time post-1945.

Contrast SillyRabbitIdealismIsForKids -- which often carries the same implication that "you are ignorant of the real world of today." See also CoolPeopleRebelAgainstAuthority and GoodIsNotDumb.

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!!Examples:

[[AC:{{Anime}} and {{Manga}}]]
* Merla, self-styled Queen of Darkness from an old episode of ''{{Voltron}}''
* Inverted in TheWorldGodOnlyKnows where the traditional hierarchy of Hell was overthrown and replaced by the NobleDemon population.
* Even ''kids'' tell poor [[{{Trigun}} Vash]] that [[ThouShaltNotKill his code]] is stupid and old-fashioned, because the planet Gunsmoke is a CrapsackWorld where old Earth morals don't apply. Vash [[{{Determinator}} soldiers on regardless]].

[[AC:ComicBooks]]
* In ''Civil War: Frontline'' #11, reporter Sally Floyd gets an interview with CaptainAmerica as he's in prison awaiting trial. He tells her that everything he's done up to that point was done in the interest of America's founding principles and ideals. She tells him that he's "out of touch" with "real" American values, which are embodied by {{MySpace}}, {{YouTube}}, and NASCAR. And he, the man famous for speeches about doing the right thing no matter what, does not refute this.(Suffice to say, the mere mention of Sally Floyd's name will get every Marvel fan in a 20-mile radius snarling.)
** Cap probably didn't respond because Sally Floyd was being mind-bogglingly ''stupid''.
** Don't overlook the sometime heavy-handed political satire in the ''Civil War'' series: Cap's refusal to dispute Sally Floyd was seen at the time as political commentary about the G. W. Bush administration, implying that the administration and its political values were alien from America's founding principles and ideals. At time, fans expected CaptainAmerica to be held in the infamous Guatanamo Bay facilities, remember.
*** Which just makes it odder that WordOfGod essentially declared the "establishment" to be in the right, after subordinate authors had spent much time subverting and knocking it, essentially meaning that the writing went both ways on the question and left no one happy.
** She also asks him "what has he done for America lately." At which point Captain America should have responded, "Fine... next time the Skrulls invade, you f* cking stop them, you ignorant jackass".
*** One issue of WorldWarHulk did mock her for her speach though.
** Early after being revived, Cap had a fair amount of angst over being the FishOutOfTemporalWater, and a lot of people, good guys or not, would bring it up. He did acclimate for the most part, now and again being appalled all over again for, say, his teammates' willingness to kill prisoners.
*** Which is odd, since he did kill people during the war.
*** [[CompletelyMissingThePoint There's a ''wee'' bit of difference between killing armed opponents in combat and killing helpless prisoners...]]
** In UltimateMarvel, at some point Ultimate Cap, who like all characters in that universe is somewhat less good, is taken aback and disturbed by the Ultimate incestuous relationship between Ultimate Quicksilver and Ultimate Scarlet Witch. Ultimate Wasp berates him for having "20th Century morals". Because BrotherSisterIncest is so modern and awesome, apparently.
*** Not all the Ultimates actually felt that way, though--Hawkeye did call the relationship sick.
* In {{Batman}} #650, part of Jason Todd's MotiveRant:
--> '''Jason:''' ''I don't know what clouds your judgment worse. Your guilt or your antiquated sense of morality.''
* {{Superman}} gets this a few time by anti-heroes; needless to say he proves them wrong.
** Notably, in "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?", in which he fights some very obvious [[{{Expy}} Expies]] of TheAuthority.
** In ''KingdomCome'', a killer goth cyborg with 666 tattooed on his chest calls Supes "Man of the 1950s" for daring to lecture the future's super-gang-bangers on morality.
*** The setup for ''Kingdom Come'' revolved around Superman coming out of retirement, which he entered after Magog, an embodiment of the [[DarkAge ''Grim and Gritty'']] NinetiesAntiHero, displaced him as the top superhero, telling him that ideals like taking villains alive don't work anymore.
** In ''Superman At Earth's End'', Ben Boxer attempts to convince Superman that his adamant refusal to kill is old-fashioned and out of touch with reality. Superman's response, [[MemeticMutation made famous]] by [[AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]]; "Reality is, you're just an android. '''I AM A MAN!'''"
*** But then he uses an enormously oversized gun to mow down the [[VillainOfTheWeek Villains Of The Week]] and their hench-army anyway, before [[BrokenAesop delivering a message about how guns are bad]]. And now you know why Linkara featured this comic.
* In DC's miniseries ''Trinity'', Morgaine Le Fey tells Superman, during the climactic battle, that she is looking to the future, while he, Batman, and {{Wonder Woman}} cling to the past.
* Tom Strong had an issue with a glimpse into the future where he and his family fight a Nazi[[spoiler: (the son of a female Nazi supersoldier who had impregnated herself with a sperm sample taken from Tom while he was briefly captured during WWII)]] who uses this trope to attack the Strong family's idealism. Tom shoots back with a [[ShutUpHannibal Shut Up Hannibal]] and makes the case that there have been tyrants and despots since the dawn of history, and that those ideologies are the ones that are obsolete and outdated.
* This was often given as the premise for the many "proactive" superhero teams that debuted in the DarkAge, and the NinetiesAntiHero in general -- something along the lines of "In these difficult times, we can no longer afford to just wait and react!": X-Force, Force Works, Extreme Justice, and the ultimate expression of the theme, TheAuthority.

[[AC:{{Film}}]]
* ''[[IndianaJones Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade]]'' in the ColdOpening.
* In ''TimeBandits'', Evil jeers at the way God bothered with such things as butterflies. He's going straight to hi-tech.
-->''If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!''
** For good measure, when God appears at the end, he manifests as a somewhat officious old man in a gray suit.
* ''In Time After Time'', Jack the Ripper laughs at the hero´s nobility and says: "You´re so Victorian!"
* In ''Live Free or Die Hard'', Thomas Gabriel mocks John [=McClane=] by calling him an analogue timepiece in the digital age.
* In [[DragonHeart Dragonheart]], villain characters frequently sneer that Bowen's moral code -- the code of chivalry -- is old-fashioned and irrelevant.

[[AC:{{Literature}}]]
* In DanAbnett's GauntsGhosts novel ''The Armour of Contempt'', an officer tells Rawne that Gaunt will get him killed over [[IncorruptiblePurePureness a futile point of honor]], and that the Warmaster is amused by Gaunt's old-fashioned sense of honor.
* TheGunslinger in Stephen King's ''The Dark Tower'' series seems to get this a lot.
* Hagbard Celine in ''The {{Illuminatus}}! Trilogy'' explains people fall in neophobes and neophiles, with 90% of the population being neophobes, afraid of change, and that these people are in the end, right.
** There's absolutely no moral dimension in being a neophobe or neophile. All heroes and all villains fall squarely in the neophile category.
* In {{Graham McNeill}}'s {{Warhammer 40000}} {{Ultramarines}} novel ''Nightbringer'', [[spoiler:Chanda]] reveals himself as TheMole, and the governor asks why. He cites this trope and hands them over to their enemies. [[spoiler:And is RewardedAsATraitorDeserves.]]
-->''You are the past. Weak, pathetic, clinging to your outdated loyalty to a withered corpse on a planet you have never even seen.''
* In {{Graham McNeill}}'s {{Warhammer 40000}} HorusHeresy novel ''False Gods'', [[{{Ubermensch}} Magnus the Red]] is determined to study the warp and gain power, because
-->''[[AboveGoodAndEvil Notions of good and evil]] fell by the wayside next to such power as dwelled in the warp, for they were the antiquated concepts of a religious society, long cast aside.''
** He's now the slave of the god Tzeentch with most of his army reduced to mindless shells of their former self because of said warp powers and his treacherous second-in-command.
** In JamesSwallow's ''The Flight of the Eisenstein'', Garro has a house carl as [[OldRetainer his equerry]]; his fellow Death Guard Space Marines sneer at maintaining a tradition that no longer makes sense; it smacks of sentiment. [[spoiler:Later, one, as a reanimated and rotting corpse, jeers at Garro and describes himself as a "harbinger of the future".]]
* In JamesSwallow's {{Warhammer 40000}} BloodAngels novel ''Deus Encarmine'', Inquisitor Stele tells the Blood Angels before him that there will be resistance to his plans, because of those who cling to "ancient, decrepit dogma."
** Although, to be honest, calling the Imperium "good" is...[[BlackAndGreyMorality let's say]] "[[DesignatedHero misguided".]]
* In JRRTolkien's ''[[LordOfTheRings Fellowship of the Ring]]'', Saruman's appeal to Gandalf:
-->''A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Númenor. This then is one choice before you. Before us. We may join with that Power.''
* In Philip Reeve's ''Mortal Engines'', the Engineers, about to fight with the Historians, sneer at them because the Engineers represent the future. [[spoiler:The Historians win.]]
* In ''ManyWaters'', the nephilim and their followers have this attitude, in contrast to their "brothers", the seraphim.

[[AC:LiveActionTV]]
* ''TheTwilightZone'': "The Obsolete Man." The title man is prosecuted for being an (illegal) librarian and (illegally) believing in God.
** The government in that episode also admittedly espouses philosophies similar to those of Mussolini (see below).
* {{Columbo}} is mocked by one of his suspects (who is a sort of Hugh Hefner character) for his ''middle-class morality'' at length.

[[AC:VideoGames]]
* The Unlimited Blade Works route of ''[[FateStayNight Fate/stay night]]'' and the Heaven's Feel route of same are all about this trope.
* In Shu's story mode for ''Warriors Orochi 2'', this is [[SmugSnake Masamune Date's]] battle taunt when he shows up.
** Cao Cao in ''DynastyWarriors 6'' also considers those who support the Han to be out of touch with the times.
* An early villain in ''{{Knights of the Old Republic}}'' is Brejik of the Black Vulkars, a very hostile gang that extorts and takes slaves. Brejik split away from the less criminal, more supportive Hidden Beks gang and made an ongoing effort to destroy it. The player character can choose a side; Brejik captured someone you need for the plot and put her up as the prize for winning a swoop race, and being sponsored by one of these gangs is the only way to compete in it. Win, though, and Brejik rants about how he doesn't have to follow up on old rules like handing over prizes. He is the wave of the future! Naturally, you kill him.

[[AC:WesternAnimation]]
* [[KingOfTheHill Hank Hill]] may be the living incarnation of this trope. At the very least, his beliefs are.
** [[ValuesDissonance Maybe]].

[[AC:Real Life]]
* It wasn't just ThoseWackyNazis, the ''real'' Nazis, and the Italian Fascists who came before them, came to power largely by arguing that things like liberal democracy and individual rights (as opposed to the "common good") were outdated concepts and that totalitarian dictatorship was the way of the future. In keeping with this trope "pragmatic" was, in fact, one of Mussolini's favorite words (though Mussolini was decidedly less evil than modern guilt by association makes him out to be).
** Communist tracts of the time also made use of this trope, though they tended to portray themselves as 'true' democrats and the liberal democracies of the West as being undemocratic because they didn't permit unlimited power to the majority. A favorite of Communist propagandists of the 1930s in the USA was that the Constitution was outdated, obsolate, a 'barrier to democracy'.
** Depressingly enough, the idea that democracy is aimless mob rule and that enlightened tyranny is the way of the future was actually a ''very'' popular viewpoint among turn of the century intellectuals, with Nietzsche, of course, being the TropeMaker. It took World War II to demolish that perspective for a while, by demonstrating just how disastrously bad giving one man absolute power can be.
*** Nietzsche wasn't pro-Fascist in the slightest. If anything, he was pro-Anarchist. His philosophies, which were ultra-individualist and opposed to any kind of collectivism were twisted by his proto-Nazi sister to suit in her racial and political views, leading to a lot of MisaimedFandom in Nazi Germany.
**** To call Nietzsche pro-anarchist is also a mischaracterisation, though - anarchism is generally a collectivist or communistic theory, with only very VERY rare "egoist anarchists"; certainly during his lifetime, anarchists were only gradually becoming a distinct philosophical grouping apart from communists. The whole idea of doing whatever you can get away with (which is essentially what the "Napoleons of this world can do whatever they want to achieve their greatness" means when you translate it out of pretentious hack-philosophy. Sorry, is my [[YourMileageMayVary YMMV showing?]]) is alien to the overwhelming majority of anarchists, and Nietzsche certainly never identified himself with them.
** Nevertheless, Nietzsche still claimed that people need to evolve beyond the mere concepts of good and evil, so it still fits the trope.
*** Technically not. Nietzsche's Superman determines his own Good and Evil -- he follows his morals because he made them and truly believes in them, instead of someone from above commanding him to obey them. This tends to be {{Flanderized}} into a JerkAss who does whatever he feels like without qualms, but it's quite far from Nietzsche's original ideal.
**** The problem is that Neitzche may not have intended it, but he certainly encouraged it. His ideals place no slightest defense against the ubermensch taking power if he can. As it turns out, people who abandoned all morality can, iunder the right circumstances, take unlimited power. And what they do with it is very Nietzchist, just not the same as Nietzche.
*** It's Older than You Think: debates about the morality of democracy and the practicality of tyranny have been raging since at least Ancient Greece.

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<<|MoralityTropes|>>
<<|StockPhrases|>>
<<|GoodnessTropes|>>

* In the only episode of BeastWars you will ever need to see, [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy Dinobot]] restrains himself from attacking (upgraded) Megatron while the latter has a human hostage. Megs [[GoodIsOldFashioned calls him obsolete]]. Dinobot [[CrowningMomentOfAwesome improvises]].

* This is a common theme in many a ChickTract: the [[StrawmanPolitical liberal]] and [[HollywoodAtheist atheist]] antagonists will argue Christianity is old-fashioned and obsolete, and the Christian protagonist is often proud of their old-fashioned Christian values. Of course, the Christian values Chick espouses include [[BuryYourGays homophobia]], the [[TheNewRockAndRoll demonic nature]] of DungeonsAndDragons and HarryPotter, [[YouFailBiologyForever creationism]], insistence on the [[YouFailHistoryForever King James Bible as the only true Word of God]], Satanic conspiracies regarding [[ReligionOfEvil Catholics, Mormons, Muslims]], [[PathOfInspiration Wiccans and Freemasons]], and an [[YouSuck intolerance]] of anyone who doesn't believe in his particular radical strain of Protestantism.

* This is a common theme in many a ChickTract: the [[StrawmanPolitical liberal]] and [[HollywoodAtheist atheist]] antagonists will argue Christianity is old-fashioned and obsolete, and the Christian protagonist is often proud of their old-fashioned Christian values. Of course, the Christian values Chick espouses include homophobia, the [[TheNewRockAndRoll demonic nature]] of DungeonsAndDragons and HarryPotter, [[YouFailBiologyForever creationism]], insistence on the [[YouFailHistoryForever King James Bible as the only true Word of God]], Satanic conspiracies regarding [[ReligionOfEvil Catholics, Mormons, Muslims]], [[PathOfInspiration Wiccans and Freemasons]], and an [[YouSuck intolerance]] of anyone who doesn't believe in his particular radical strain of Protestantism.

Contrast SillyRabbitIdealismIsForKids -- which often carries the same implication that "you are ignorant of the real world of today." See also CoolPeopleRebelAgainstAuthority.

*** You seem to have it backwards. This trope is "good is old fashioned," not "old fashioned is good." What Hank Hill believes is the latter. This can lead to one of the negative implications of this trope in the thinking that new things are by their nature bad. Hank is very suspicious of stuff not build or invented after the 1970s, and will often assume the worst of them.

*** You seem to have it backwards. This trope is "good is old fashioned," not "old fashioned is good." What Hank Hill believes is the latter. There's a difference.

*** Technically not. Nietzsche's Superman determines his own Good and Evil -- he follows his morals because he made them and truly believes in them, instead of someone from above commanding him to obey them. This tends to be {{Flanderized}} into a JerkAss who does whatever he feels like without qualms, but it's quite far from Nietzsche's original ideal.

** In ''Superman At Earth's End'', Ben Boxer attempts to convince Superman that his adamant refusal to kill is old-fashioned and out of touch with reality. Superman's response, [[MemeticMutation made famous]] by [[ThatGuyWithTheGlasses Linkara]]; "Reality is, you're just an android. '''I AM A MAN!'''"

* Columbo is mocked by one of his suspects (who is a sort of Hugh Hefner character) for his ''middle-class morality'' at length.