History Main / GodwinsLaw

[[quoteright:261:[[TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitler_card1.jpg]]]]
[-[[caption-width-right:261:There are some things stupid arguments can't solve. For everything else, there's \\
[[HitlerAteSugar The Hitler Card. ]]]]-]

Also known as "Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies". Originated by Richard Sexton, and popularized by Mike Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (and of [[TheOtherWiki the Wikimedia Foundation]] until 2010) in 1990 in the form:

Heavily overlaps with {{demonization}} and can be seen as its modern, secular adaptation. See also AbominationAccusationAttack. Not to be confused with GodwinsLawOfTimeTravel. It ''might'' be justified when seriously discussing [[WouldBeRudeToSayGenocide genocide]], since UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust is pretty much the TropeCodifier that most other genocides are measured against. The word was even first coined in reference to it.

->"Any off-topic mention of Hitler or Nazis will cause the thread it is mentioned in to come to an irrelevant and off-topic end very soon; every thread on {{Usenet}} has a constantly-increasing probability to contain such a mention."

Occasionally Stalin is referenced, often by [[WrongGenreSavvy people who are aware of]] Godwin's Law but want to convey a similar message; in this case, this might slip into the CommieNazis trope. The Greek political party [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party) Golden Dawn]] has also been used for the same purpose, though it is still mostly used in European parliaments and it is very likely that the only reason why is because only they know what it means. Some people will be topical and use terrorism or {{slavery|IsASpecialKindOfEvil}} as the canonical ultimate evil. However, any of these can also be seen to have violated Godwin's Law, since the point remains: comparing your argument to a clear and non-debatable atrocity is simply bad debating, since it implies that the opposition has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and is obviously insensitive to real-life victims and their descendants.

->''"You wanna know [[HitlerAteSugar who else]] used laws to stop debates? [[UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler HITLER]]!"''

This trope is (perhaps not surprisingly, given [[HumansAreBastards human nature]]) OlderThanTheyThink. Prior to UsefulNotes/WorldWarII, the go-to villains were generally [[Literature/TheBible Biblical]], such as the NephariousPharaoh from the Literature/BookOfExodus (often thought to be UsefulNotes/RamsesII), and Pontius Pilate and Judas Iscariot from the New Testament.

This trope is (perhaps not surprisingly, given [[HumansAreBastards human nature]]) OlderThanTheyThink. Prior to UsefulNotes/WorldWarII, the go-to villains were generally [[Literature/TheBible Biblical]], such as the NephariousPharaoh during the Exodus (often thought to be UsefulNotes/RamsesII), Pontius Pilate, or Judas.

This trope is (perhaps not surprisingly, given [[HumansAreBastards human nature]]) OlderThanTheyThink. Prior to the 1940s, the go-to villains were generally [[Literature/TheBible Biblical]], such as the Pharaoh during the Exodus (often thought to be Rameses II), Pontius Pilate, or Judas.

George Orwell said something similar in his 1946 essay, "[[http://www.literaturecollection.com/a/orwell/454/ Politics and the English Language]]", where he noted the new definition of fascism had pretty much become "anything you don't agree with". There's also [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQFU1y928dw a very catchy tune]] on the subject, as there is with most things.

Occasionally Stalin is referenced, often by [[GenreSavvy people who are aware of]] Godwin's Law but want to convey a similar message; in this case, this might slip into the CommieNazis trope. The Greek political party [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party) Golden Dawn]] has also been used for the same purpose, though it is still mostly used in European parliaments and it is very likely that the only reason why is because only they know what it means. Some people will be topical and use terrorism or {{slavery|IsASpecialKindOfEvil}} as the canonical ultimate evil. However, any of these can also be seen to have violated Godwin's Law, since the point remains: comparing your argument to a clear and non-debatable atrocity is simply bad debating, since it implies that the opposition has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and is obviously insensitive to real-life victims and their descendants.

The [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYgcM4ftiQ ''Internetiquette'']] short of the fifth episode of the Flemish investigative journalism series ''Basta''/''neveneffecten'', also showcases those 2 laws ("After a comparison with the Nazis there will always be a stupid guy that will refer to Godwin's law" is the second one) together with plenty of other laws that are present on the internet when they deconstructed the inner workings of an internet discussion. The thing is however as of yet only available in Dutch.

Occasionally Stalin is referenced, often by [[GenreSavvy people who are aware of]] Godwin's Law but want to convey a similar message; in this case, this might slip into the CommieNazis trope. The Greek political party[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party) ''Golden Dawn'']] has also been used for the same purpose, though it is still mostly used in European parliaments and it is very likely that the only reason why is because only they know what it means. Some people will be topical and use terrorism or {{slavery|IsASpecialKindOfEvil}} as the canonical ultimate evil. However, any of these can also be seen to have violated Godwin's Law, since the point remains: comparing your argument to a clear and non-debatable atrocity is simply bad debating, since it implies that the opposition has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and is obviously insensitive to real-life victims and their descendants.

Occasionally Stalin is referenced, often by [[GenreSavvy people who are aware of]] Godwin's Law but want to convey a similar message; in this case, this might slip into the CommieNazis trope. Some people will be topical and use terrorism or {{slavery|IsASpecialKindOfEvil}} as the canonical ultimate evil. However, any of these can also be seen to have violated Godwin's Law, since the point remains: comparing your argument to a clear and non-debatable atrocity is simply bad debating, since it implies that the opposition has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and is obviously insensitive to real-life victims and their descendants.

The [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYgcM4ftiQ ''Internetiquette'']] short of the fifth episode of the Flemish investigative journalism series ''Basta'', which was called ''neveneffecten'', also showcases those 2 laws ("After a comparison with the Nazis there will always be a stupid guy that will refer to Godwin's law" is the second one) together with plenty of other laws that are present on the internet when they deconstructed the inner workings of an internet discussion. The thing is however as of yet only available in Dutch.

Occasionally Stalin is referenced, often by [[GenreSavvy people who are aware of]] Godwin's Law but want to convey a similar message; in this case, this might slip into the CommieNazis trope. Some people will be topical and use UsefulNotes/{{Osama bin Laden}} or slavery (especially America's brand of it) as the canonical ultimate evil. However, any of these can also be seen to have violated Godwin's Law, since the point remains: comparing your argument to a clear and non-debatable atrocity is simply bad debating, since it implies that the opposition has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and is obviously insensitive to real-life victims and their descendants.

As Quirk's Exception points out, attempting to invoke Godwin's Law ''intentionally'' in order to force-terminate a thread rarely works. All the same, shouting "Hitler!" is a fun way to express your opinion that a thread should be put to rest. Of course, it's also helping Hitler indirectly, as his greatest expressed wish was to be remembered forever, which means that you're [[HypocriticalHumor just as bad as Hitler, you horrible Nazi-bastard.]] However, this corollary ''is not'' in the law itself. Likewise, trying to bait your opponent into breaking the law is poor form too. Sometimes commenters will try to get around mentioning Hitler's name directly (e.g. "You know who ELSE got rejected in art school? THAT'S RIGHT."), but this is really no better.

[-[[caption-width-right:261:There are some things stupid arguments can't solve. For everything else, there's [[HitlerAteSugar The Hitler Card. ]]]]-]

[[caption-width-right:261:[-There are some things stupid arguments can't solve. For everything else, there's [[HitlerAteSugar The Hitler Card-]. ]]]]

[[caption-width-right:261:There are some things stupid arguments can't solve. For everything else, there's [[HitlerAteSugar The Hitler Card. ]]]]

[[quoteright:261:[[TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitler_card.jpg]]]]

[[quoteright:270:[[TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg]]]]
[[caption-width-right:270:There are some things stupid arguments can't solve. For everything else, there's [[HitlerAteSugar The Hitler Card. ]]]]

A good example of this can be found in one of the debates between Bill O'Reilly and Richard Dawkins. O'Reilly makes the argument that society needs religion to be moral because Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao were all atheists. [[note]]It should be noted there are actual Marxists who refer to themselves as Stalinists and consider him a victim of capitalist propaganda, the most noteworthy/infamous being The Espresso Stalinist.[[/note]]

This trope is (perhaps not surprisingly, given [[HumansAreBastards human nature]]) OlderThanTheyThink. Prior to the 1940s, the go-to villains were generally [[Literature/TheBible Biblical]], such as the Pharaoh of the Exodus, Pontius Pilate, or Judas.

Note that the [[CaptainObvious Law is not supposed to apply to serious discussions of]] [[http://xkcd.com/261/ Fascist Germany or its policies]], but rather describes the logical fallacy of Hitler/Nazi comparisons. The most common forms of this are [[HitlerAteSugar "The Nazis supported X, therefore X is bad/The Nazis opposed X, therefore X is good"]]. Whether using "Nazi" as a random insult falls under the Law is a matter of debate. Unfortunately, this has become so popular as to come full-circle, making any discussion of totalitarian regimes susceptible to "HAY GODWIN'S LAW HURR".

A good example of this can be found in one of the debates between Bill O'Reilly and Richard Dawkins. O'Reilly makes the argument that society needs religion to be moral because Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao were all Atheists. [[note]]It should be noted there are actual Marxists who refer to themselves as Stalinists and consider him a victim of Capitalist propaganda, the most noteworthy/infamous being The Espresso Stalinist[[/note]]

The [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYgcM4ftiQ ''Internetiquette'']] short of the fitfth episode of the Flemish investigative journalism series ''Basta'', which was called ''neveneffecten'', also showcases those 2 laws ("After a comparison with the nazi's there will always be a stupid guy that will refer to Godwin's law" is the second one) together with plenty of other laws that are present on the internet when they deconstructed the inner workings of an internet discussion. The thing is however as of yet only available in Dutch.

A good example of this can be found in one of the debates between Bill O'Reilly and Richard Dawkins. O'Reilly makes the argument that society needs religion to be moral because Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao were all Atheists.
* Though it should be noted there are actual Marxists who refer to themselves as Stalinists and consider him a victim of Capitalist propaganda, the most noteworthy/infamous being The Espresso Stalinist
In fan circles, there's the "[[NoTrueScotsman true fan]]" argument, in which anyone who plays the "true fan" card automatically loses the argument:

->"After a rather influential message by M Sipher in 1997 the term 'true fan' has taken on a whole new meaning among some [=TransFans=]. It's a sort of twist on Godwin's Law where anybody who accuses somebody of not being a true fan automatically loses any argument, and is often discounted as a buffoon afterwards."
-->--'''[[http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/tf/faq/fandom/fans.php Steve-o's Transformers FAQ]]'''

Note that some lay claim to the ability to invoke "Bentsen's Defense" (i.e. "I knew Mike Godwin, Mike Godwin was a friend of mine -- you, sir are no Mike Godwin") to negate invocations of Godwin's Law. Note, also, that this is only available to those who can truthfully make the statement and that it is designed to foster reasoned discussion -- not to deter it.

Pre-Mike Godwin and its prevalence on the Internet, the spoken and written word version of this was called ''[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum reductio ad Hitlerum]]'' or ''argumentum ad Hitlerum'', coined by ethical philosopher Leo Strauss in 1953. It means pretty much the same as Godwin's Law: [[HitlerAteSugar "A view is not refuted by the fact that it happens to have been shared by Hitler."]]

->As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving [[ThoseWackyNazis Nazis]] or [[UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler Hitler]] approaches one.

Note that the [[CaptainObvious Law is not supposed to apply to serious discussions of]] [[http://xkcd.com/261/ Fascist Germany or its policies]], but rather describes the logical fallacy of Hitler/Nazi comparisons. The most common forms of this are [[HitlerAteSugar "The Nazis supported X, therefore X is bad"]], or alternatively, [[HitlerAteSugar "The Nazis opposed X, therefore X is good"]]. Whether using "Nazi" as a random insult falls under the Law is a matter of debate. Unfortunately, this has become so popular as to come full-circle, making any discussion of totalitarian regimes susceptible to "HAY GODWIN'S LAW HURR".

** Though it should be noted there are actual Marxists who refer to themselves as Stalinists and consider him a victim of Capitalist propaganda rather, the most noteworthy being The Espresso Stalinist

The [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYgcM4ftiQ ''Internetiquette'']] short of the fitfth episode of the Flemish investigative journalism series ''Basta'', which was called ''neveneffecten'', also showcases those 2 laws ("After a comparison with the nazi's there will always be a stupid guy that will refer to Godwin's law" is the second one) together with plenty of other laws that are present on the internet when they deconstructed an internet discussion. The thing is however as of yet only available in Dutch.

The [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYgcM4ftiQ ''Internetiquette'']] short of the fitfth episode of the Flemish investigative journalism series ''Basta'', which was called ''neveneffecten'' also showcases those 2 laws (Yes, there is a second one.) together with plenty of other laws that are present on the internet when they deconstructed an internet discussion. The thing is however as of yet only available in Dutch.