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* The Witch-King in ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings: Return Of The King'' used a truly huge flail to fight Éowyn at the Pelennor Fields. The special features point out how difficult it was to lift; in the scene where the Witch-King first lifts the weapon, there was actually a person lying on the ground underneath and pushing it up from below. It started off as a relatively normal-sized flail, but Creator/PeterJackson kept telling WETA Workshop to "make it bigger." They finally made one that they were positive was going to be "too big". That's the one that made it on screen. Jackson himself thinks that it still could have been [[ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill bigger]].
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* The Witch-King in ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings: Return Of The King'' ''Film/TheLordOfTheRingsTheReturnOfTheKing'' used a truly huge flail to fight Éowyn at the Pelennor Fields. The special features point out how difficult it was to lift; in the scene where the Witch-King first lifts the weapon, there was actually a person lying on the ground underneath and pushing it up from below. It started off as a relatively normal-sized flail, but Creator/PeterJackson kept telling WETA Workshop to "make it bigger." They finally made one that they were positive was going to be "too big". That's the one that made it on screen. Jackson himself thinks that it still could have been [[ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill bigger]].
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* One of the gladiators already in the arena during the first fight in ''{{Film/Gladiator}}'' wields one. He swings it over his head in front of the closed door to frighten the new gladiators. He gets the first kill when the doors open, smashing the first in line in the face.
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* One of the gladiators already in the arena during the first fight in ''{{Film/Gladiator}}'' ''Film/{{Gladiator}}'' wields one. He swings it over his head in front of the closed door to frighten the new gladiators. He gets the first kill when the doors open, smashing the first in line in the face.
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[[folder:Professional Wrestling]]
* Dementia D'Rose's signature weapon is a black ball n'chain, which she tends to drap over her shoulder and rest on her ass(her ''legal'' [[AssKicksYou signature weapon]])[[/folder]]
* Dementia D'Rose's signature weapon is a black ball n'chain, which she tends to drap over her shoulder and rest on her ass(her ''legal'' [[AssKicksYou signature weapon]])[[/folder]]
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* The ankkox from the StarWars novel ''Literature/{{Shatterpoint}}'' is a monstrous creature that is, essentially, a cross between a giant tortoise and a dinosaur. Like the real life ankylosaurs, it has a bony knob on the end of its long, flexible tail that serves as a mace. Unlike the ankylosaur, its tail mace strikes with sufficient force to ''shatter tank armor''. The one used in the climax of the novel is billed as "[the Korunnai's] sole piece of mobile artillery" and fully lives up to that description.
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* The ankkox from the StarWars Franchise/StarWarsLegends novel ''Literature/{{Shatterpoint}}'' is a monstrous creature that is, essentially, a cross between a giant tortoise and a dinosaur. Like the real life ankylosaurs, it has a bony knob on the end of its long, flexible tail that serves as a mace. Unlike the ankylosaur, its tail mace strikes with sufficient force to ''shatter tank armor''. The one used in the climax of the novel is billed as "[the Korunnai's] sole piece of mobile artillery" and fully lives up to that description.
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* [[http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html This half-ogre]] from ''Webcomic/TheOrderOfTheStick'' uses a "perfect combo" with a spiked chain. Unfortunately for him, there is a slight disadvantage of his tactic that he fails to realize until it's too late[[note]]he needs to jump back 15 feet at every move[[/note]].
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* [[http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html This half-ogre]] from ''Webcomic/TheOrderOfTheStick'' uses a "perfect combo" with a spiked chain. Unfortunately for him, there is a slight disadvantage of his tactic that he fails to realize until it's too late[[note]]he needs to jump back 15 feet at every move[[/note]].move... and doesn't realise there's a cliff edge behind him[[/note]].
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She didn't come up with the name. Check the Other Wiki.
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* In ''Literature/RiverOfTeeth'', [[ActionGirl Archie]] fights with what she calls her 'meteor hammer', a length of chain with a metal ball attached to one end, which she [[EverythingsBetterWithSpinning spins]] until it reaches a certain speed, then throws aiming at her target.
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* In ''Literature/RiverOfTeeth'', [[ActionGirl Archie]] fights with what she calls her 'meteor hammer', a meteor hammer, a length of chain with a metal ball attached to one end, which she [[EverythingsBetterWithSpinning spins]] until it reaches a certain speed, then throws aiming at her target.
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* In ''VideoGame/{{Bayonetta 2}}'', the reward for beating all chapters on 3rd Climax difficulty (the hardest standard difficulty) is [[spoiler:a [[Franchise/SuperMarioBros chain chomp]] she chains to her legs and uses as a flail]]. [[LethalJokeWeapon It's as deadly as it is absurd and unexpected]].
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* In ''VideoGame/{{Bayonetta 2}}'', the reward for beating all chapters on 3rd Climax difficulty (the hardest standard difficulty) is [[spoiler:a live, angry [[Franchise/SuperMarioBros chain chomp]] she chains to her legs and uses as a flail]]. [[LethalJokeWeapon It's as deadly as it is absurd and unexpected]].
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* In ''VideoGame/{{Bayonetta 2}}'', the reward for beating all chapters on 3rd Climax difficulty (the hardest standard difficulty) is [[spoiler:a [[Franchise/SuperMarioBros chain chomp]] she chains to her legs and uses as a flail.]]
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* In ''VideoGame/{{Bayonetta 2}}'', the reward for beating all chapters on 3rd Climax difficulty (the hardest standard difficulty) is [[spoiler:a [[Franchise/SuperMarioBros chain chomp]] she chains to her legs and uses as a flail.]]flail]]. [[LethalJokeWeapon It's as deadly as it is absurd and unexpected]].
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Compare EverythingsBetterWithSpinning, KillerYoYo. Stereotypical flails almost always have a spike covered ball at the end, and it's popularity with brutal characters also makes it one of the most common (and popular) examples of SavageSpikedWeapons. If the spiky part is not a part of a weapon, then these are SpikeBallsOfDoom.
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Compare EverythingsBetterWithSpinning, KillerYoYo. Stereotypical flails almost always have a spike covered ball at the end, and it's popularity with brutal and/or crazed characters also makes it one of the most common (and popular) examples of SavageSpikedWeapons. If the spiky part is not a part of a weapon, then these are SpikeBallsOfDoom.
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Compare EverythingsBetterWithSpinning, KillerYoYo. If the spiky part is not a part of a weapon, then these are SpikeBallsOfDoom.
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Compare EverythingsBetterWithSpinning, KillerYoYo. Stereotypical flails almost always have a spike covered ball at the end, and it's popularity with brutal characters also makes it one of the most common (and popular) examples of SavageSpikedWeapons. If the spiky part is not a part of a weapon, then these are SpikeBallsOfDoom.
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* ''Film/HeadlessHorseman'': When the teens are attempting to escape through the woods, Headless attacks them from horseback wielding a morningstar. He knocks down Tiffany who falls on a BearTrap and [[OffWithHerHead is decapitated]].
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* The first boss of ''VideoGame/SonicTheHedgehog'' is Dr. Robotnik flying a small hovercraft armed with a giant wrecking ball on the bottom.
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* The first boss of ''VideoGame/SonicTheHedgehog'' ''VideoGame/SonicTheHedgehog1'' is Dr. Robotnik flying a small hovercraft armed with a giant wrecking ball on the bottom.
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**Although Peter Jackson kept calling it a "mace": the Witch King's weapon in the original trilogy is in fact a flail. It's flanged head is almost as big as Merry (roughly 3' tall): so it definitely qualifies as "epic". The Witch King manages to throw Theoden and his horse several feet in the air with it: paralleling the death of Gilgalad shown in the introduction (which was accomplished by Sauron using his actual mace of equally epic proportions). Justified in that the Witch King's body is magical and doesn't need to obey the laws of physics. Even the hollow prop was so heavy and unwieldy that it took two of the stuntmen to lift. There's a great video of Jackson himself trying and failing to lift the final prop.
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* Shuten Doji/Anubis from ''Anime/RoninWarriors'' mostly fights the heroes with a kusarigama with a bladed weight, which can burst through concrete and stone, as well as extend to bind people.
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* The [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Flail Knight]], one of the Meta-Knights from ''VideoGame/KirbysAdventure'' and ''VideoGame/KirbySuperStar'', [[CaptainObvious wields one]].
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* The [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Flail Knight]], one of the Meta-Knights from ''VideoGame/KirbysAdventure'' and ''VideoGame/KirbySuperStar'', [[CaptainObvious wields one]].one.
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* Shows up in one of Arthur's duels in ''Series/{{Merlin}}'', unsurprisingly, given the medieval setting.
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* Shows up in one of Arthur's duels in ''Series/{{Merlin}}'', ''Series/{{Merlin|2008}}'', unsurprisingly, given the medieval setting.
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Maxi's weapon applies under Fighting With Chucks and not this trope, and Ivy's usual weapon is a whip sword, which also doesn't apply here.
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* The ''VideoGame/SoulSeries'' has two Nunchaku users, [[ThePiratesWhoDontDoAnything Maxi]] is the current Epic Flailer, replacing Li Long. The latter taught the former how to use the weapons. Meanwhile, Ivy has a flail as an optional weapon, but it's heavy enough to slowly drain her health.
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* In the ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000 Literature/ThousandSons'' trilogy, the [[PlayingWithFire pyromancer]] Gaumata wields a morning star on a chain. Since it’s a force weapon, he can channel his psychic powers through the morning star and set whatever it strikes on fire.
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No tropes in page quotes.
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->'''Trevor Belmont''': I don't believe they hid it. [[HellYesMoment It's the]] [[AncestralWeapon Morning Star]]!
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->'''Trevor Belmont''': I don't believe they hid it. [[HellYesMoment It's the]] [[AncestralWeapon the Morning Star]]!Star!
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->'''Trevor Belmont''': I don't believe they hid it. It's the [[AncestralWeapon Morning Star]]!
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->'''Trevor Belmont''': I don't believe they hid it. [[HellYesMoment It's the the]] [[AncestralWeapon Morning Star]]!
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* Has been an intimidating weapon in the ''[[Franchise/TheLegendOfZelda Zelda]]'' series since ''VideoGame/ZeldaIITheAdventureOfLink''. In ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTwilightPrincess'', the hero Link finally got to use one himself, as well as in ''VideoGame/HyruleWarriors''.
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* Has been an intimidating weapon in the ''[[Franchise/TheLegendOfZelda Zelda]]'' series since ''VideoGame/ZeldaIITheAdventureOfLink''. In ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTwilightPrincess'', the hero Link finally got gets to use one himself, as well as in ''VideoGame/HyruleWarriors''.
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* In ''VideoGame/NetHack'' you can get punished with a ball and chain. Bummer, but you can pick up the ball and swing it around as a weapon because of DevelopersForesight. Aside from the ludicrous weight, it's actually a pretty good weapon.
** Also handy because you could pick up the ball and throw it. Which would then cause you to fly over several squares as the chain lost its slack and took you with it. It was one of the only ways to "jump" the sections of water.
** Also handy because you could pick up the ball and throw it. Which would then cause you to fly over several squares as the chain lost its slack and took you with it. It was one of the only ways to "jump" the sections of water.
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* In ''VideoGame/NetHack'' you can get punished with a ball and chain. Bummer, but you can pick up the ball and swing it around as a weapon because of DevelopersForesight. Aside from the ludicrous weight, it's actually a pretty good weapon.
**weapon. Also handy because you could pick up the ball and throw it. Which would then cause you to fly over several squares as the chain lost its slack and took you with it. It was one of the only ways to "jump" the sections of water.
**
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* The ''VideoGame/SoulSeries'' had two Nunchaku users, [[ThePiratesWhoDontDoAnything Maxi]] is the current Epic Flailer, replacing Li Long. The latter taught the former how to use the weapons.
** Ivy has a flail as an optional weapon, but it's heavy enough to slowly drain her health.
** Ivy has a flail as an optional weapon, but it's heavy enough to slowly drain her health.
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* The ''VideoGame/SoulSeries'' had has two Nunchaku users, [[ThePiratesWhoDontDoAnything Maxi]] is the current Epic Flailer, replacing Li Long. The latter taught the former how to use the weapons.
**weapons. Meanwhile, Ivy has a flail as an optional weapon, but it's heavy enough to slowly drain her health.
**
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* Flails (called Hammers) are weapons usable in ''VideoGame/MakaiKingdom''. Given that one of the top attacks for the weapon is to slam it into the ground and swing the ''stage'' around, it's also a suitably Epic Flail.
** Also of note is Asagi, who has one of these as her subweapon. [[{{BFS}} Did we mention that the head of the flail is as big as she is?]]
* Dian Wei had his primary weapon changed from [[AnAxeToGrind a really big axe]] to a really big morningstar in ''VideoGame/DynastyWarriors 6'' when most of the characters were redesigned.
** The sequel reverted it back to an axe but gave Dong Zhuo (Formerly a serrated broadsword) and Cao Ren (Formerly a buckler-blade thing) more modest ones. The subsequent follow-up took it away from both of them and gave it Gan Ning.
** Also of note is Asagi, who has one of these as her subweapon. [[{{BFS}} Did we mention that the head of the flail is as big as she is?]]
* Dian Wei had his primary weapon changed from [[AnAxeToGrind a really big axe]] to a really big morningstar in ''VideoGame/DynastyWarriors 6'' when most of the characters were redesigned.
** The sequel reverted it back to an axe but gave Dong Zhuo (Formerly a serrated broadsword) and Cao Ren (Formerly a buckler-blade thing) more modest ones. The subsequent follow-up took it away from both of them and gave it Gan Ning.
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* Flails (called Hammers) are weapons usable in ''VideoGame/MakaiKingdom''. Given that one of the top attacks for the weapon is to slam it into the ground and swing the ''stage'' around, it's also a suitably Epic Flail.
**Flail. Also of note is Asagi, who has one of these as her subweapon. [[{{BFS}} Did we mention that the head of the flail is as big as she is?]]
* Dian Wei had his primary weapon changed from [[AnAxeToGrind a really big axe]] to a really big morningstar in ''VideoGame/DynastyWarriors 6'' when most of the characters wereredesigned.
**redesigned. The sequel reverted it back to an axe but gave Dong Zhuo (Formerly a serrated broadsword) and Cao Ren (Formerly a buckler-blade thing) more modest ones. The subsequent follow-up took it away from both of them and gave it Gan Ning.
**
* Dian Wei had his primary weapon changed from [[AnAxeToGrind a really big axe]] to a really big morningstar in ''VideoGame/DynastyWarriors 6'' when most of the characters were
**
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* ''Franchise/{{Castlevania}}'', anyone? Okay, its most prominent weapon is actually a whip, but some games allow it to upgrade it to sort of a whip-flail thing.
** This is actually featured in nearly every game. You start with a whip, which becomes a flail, which becomes a morning star. Some games even take it up a notch by including a whip/flail that is either covered in flames or outright ''shoots fireballs''.
** The same is also the case in ''VideoGame/LaMulana''.
* ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing'' has the ridiculously overelaborate ninja weapon, a 3-handed...weapon. It has an increased critical chance, but like all 3-handed weapons a huge multiplier to fumbles as well.
** This is actually featured in nearly every game. You start with a whip, which becomes a flail, which becomes a morning star. Some games even take it up a notch by including a whip/flail that is either covered in flames or outright ''shoots fireballs''.
** The same is also the case in ''VideoGame/LaMulana''.
* ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing'' has the ridiculously overelaborate ninja weapon, a 3-handed...weapon. It has an increased critical chance, but like all 3-handed weapons a huge multiplier to fumbles as well.
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* ''Franchise/{{Castlevania}}'', anyone? Okay, its ''Franchise/{{Castlevania}}''. The main characters' most prominent weapon is actually a whip, but some games allow it to upgrade it to sort of a whip-flail thing.
** This is actually featured in nearly every game.thing. You start with a whip, which becomes a flail, which becomes a morning star. Some games even take it up a notch by including a whip/flail that is either covered in flames or outright ''shoots fireballs''.
%%*''VideoGame/LaMulana''.
* ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing'':
** Thesame is also the case in ''VideoGame/LaMulana''.
* ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing''game has the ridiculously overelaborate ninja weapon, a 3-handed...weapon. It has an increased critical chance, but like all 3-handed weapons a huge multiplier to fumbles as well.
** This is actually featured in nearly every game.
%%*''VideoGame/LaMulana''.
* ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing'':
** The
* ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing''
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* ''VideoGame/RatchetDeadlocked'' has had the Scorpion/Leviathan Flail. It is, however, so heavy the head scrapes along the ground when he's carrying it. It may not be the most powerful weapon in his arsenal, but it's certainly one of the most ''fun''. The fun part? It has its own ''shockwave''.
** The RuleOfCool part? The spiky head of the [[EvolvingAttack upgraded version]] is ''attached to the handle with lightning''.
** The RuleOfCool part? The spiky head of the [[EvolvingAttack upgraded version]] is ''attached to the handle with lightning''.
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* ''VideoGame/RatchetDeadlocked'' has had the Scorpion/Leviathan Flail. It is, however, so heavy the head scrapes along the ground when he's carrying it. It may not be the most powerful weapon in his arsenal, but it's certainly one of the most ''fun''. The fun part? It has its own ''shockwave''.
** The RuleOfCool part? Theshockwave. and the spiky head of the [[EvolvingAttack upgraded version]] is ''attached to the handle with lightning''.
** The RuleOfCool part? The
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* ''VideoGame/HeavyWeapon's'' fourth boss, War Wrecker is a [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin wrecking ball crane used for war]]. Getting hit by the wrecking ball is a OneHitKill regardless of shielding, but the boss is incredibly easy if you know how to avoid it.
** The [[RecurringBoss rematch]] against it in level 13 is a different story- it can now extend its wrecking ball to [[DishingOutDirt toss up rocks]] from the ground, making it a lot harder to avoid damage this time round.
** The [[RecurringBoss rematch]] against it in level 13 is a different story- it can now extend its wrecking ball to [[DishingOutDirt toss up rocks]] from the ground, making it a lot harder to avoid damage this time round.
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* ''VideoGame/HeavyWeapon's'' fourth boss, War Wrecker is a [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin wrecking ball crane used for war]]. Getting hit by the wrecking ball is a OneHitKill regardless of shielding, but the boss is incredibly easy if you know how to avoid it.
**it. The [[RecurringBoss rematch]] against it in level 13 is a different story- it can now extend its wrecking ball to [[DishingOutDirt toss up rocks]] from the ground, making it a lot harder to avoid damage this time round.
**
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* [[http://andersson.elfwood.com/~andersson/For_the_Ladies.2524344.html This picture]]. While the picture itself not necessarily NSFW, others on the same site are (but none are about this trope).
** From the same site, [[http://andersson.elfwood.com/Epic-Flail.3555900.html this picture]] that shares its title with this trope.
** From the same site, [[http://andersson.elfwood.com/Epic-Flail.3555900.html this picture]] that shares its title with this trope.
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* [[http://andersson.elfwood.com/~andersson/For_the_Ladies.2524344.html This picture]]. While the picture itself is not necessarily NSFW, others on the same site are (but none are about this trope).
**trope). From the same site, [[http://andersson.elfwood.com/Epic-Flail.3555900.html this picture]] that shares its title with this trope.
**
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** Earlier Stegosaurs had spikes on their tails (unofficially called [[ComicStrip/TheFarSide thagomizers]]). Some skeletons of allosaurs have been found with holes ''punched clean through bones'' from these spikes.
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->'''Trevor Belmont''': Beautiful...
->'''Sypha Belnates''': What on earth is that ugly thing?
->'''Trevor Belmont''': I don't believe they hid it. It's the [[AncestralWeapon Morning Star]]!
-->-- ''WesternAnimation/Castlevania2017''
->'''Sypha Belnates''': What on earth is that ugly thing?
->'''Trevor Belmont''': I don't believe they hid it. It's the [[AncestralWeapon Morning Star]]!
-->-- ''WesternAnimation/Castlevania2017''
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*** The [[SuperSoldier Dark Angels]] Deathwing Knight Masters are equipped with flails of the Unforgiven, multiheaded, barbed flails that are capable of stripping both armour and flesh from the bodies of the Master's foes. In game these weapons increase the wielder's Strength characteristic and can cut through all but the thickest armour. Additionally, in the 8th Edition rules, the wounds caused by the flail are able to affect [[HerdHittingAttack multiple models]] in the target unit as the Master attacks with great sweeping swings.
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* In ''WesternAnimation/Castlevania2017'' during season 2 when Trevor and his crew return to the ruined Belmont estate, he discovers hidden away the Morning Star flail, an stronger version to his normal leather whip. The tip tends to make vampires explode upon contact. Even Dracula remembers the weapon when it is used against him.
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* In early series of ''Series/RobotWars'' quite a few competitors tried to use weights dangling from chains as flail weapons, but [[JokeItem they never did any damage at all]]. In the 3rd series of the reboot, a CrazyAwesome robot called Nuts 2 finally managed to evolve from a JokeCharacter to a LethalJokeCharacter by spinning so fast that its chain flails could actually strike with enough force to cave in armour and smash components, and [[spoiler:it ended up with ''joint 3rd place'' in the series, at one point even [[DefeatingTheUndefeatable overcoming the unstoppable reigning champions, Carbide,]] when their flails [[AttackItsWeakPoint disabled the drive chain for Carbide's spinning blade weapon]]!]]
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* In early series of ''Series/RobotWars'' quite a few competitors tried to use weights dangling from chains as flail weapons, but [[JokeItem they never did any damage at all]]. In the 3rd series of the reboot, a CrazyAwesome robot called Nuts 2 finally managed to evolve from a JokeCharacter to a LethalJokeCharacter by spinning so fast that its chain flails could actually strike with enough force to cave in armour and smash components, and [[spoiler:it ended up with ''joint 3rd place'' in the series, at one point even [[DefeatingTheUndefeatable overcoming the unstoppable reigning champions, Carbide,]] when their flails [[AttackItsWeakPoint disabled the drive chain for Carbide's spinning blade weapon]]!]]
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** In the episode "Sex, Pies and Idiot Scrapes", one of the bounty hunters is [[CrazyAwesome a bear wielding raccoon-chucks]].
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** In the episode "Sex, Pies and Idiot Scrapes", one of the bounty hunters is [[CrazyAwesome a bear wielding raccoon-chucks]].raccoon-chucks.
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* In ''Manga/DeliciousInDungeon'', a single-panel flashback shows Falin swinging a flail while she chased after Laios who was charmed by a kelpie.
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** This is the WeaponOfChoice of the [[OurGoblinsAreDifferent Hobgoblin]] Priests of Bargrivyek.
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Not to be confused with EpicFail, though there's a definite overlap if you've somehow [[https://derangedmeowmeow.deviantart.com/art/Epic-Flail-2010-723939657 smacked yourself in the head with it]] and maybe gotten the pointy bits embedded in your face. Also not that thing [[Franchise/TheMuppets Kermit]] does [[http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b266/ebunnie/kermit.gif when he's excited]].
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Not to be confused with EpicFail, though there's a [[WhatTheFuAreYouDoing definite overlap overlap]] if you've somehow [[https://derangedmeowmeow.deviantart.com/art/Epic-Flail-2010-723939657 smacked yourself in the head with it]] and maybe gotten the pointy bits embedded in your face. Also not that thing [[Franchise/TheMuppets Kermit]] does [[http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b266/ebunnie/kermit.gif when he's excited]].
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[[folder: Podcasts]]
* Princess Crania wields one in the ''Podcast/CoolKidsTable'' game ''Here We Gooooo!''.
[[/folder]]
* Princess Crania wields one in the ''Podcast/CoolKidsTable'' game ''Here We Gooooo!''.
[[/folder]]
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*** The Stone Crusher breed of [[HordeOfAlienLocusts Tyranid]] Carnifex sometimes grow a large bio-flail in place of one of their claws. Consisting of hardened bone at the end of muscular tendrils, the Carnifex is able to use this bio-flail to [[HerdhittingAttack crush multiple prey with a single sweeping attack]]. This is represented in the 8th Edition rules by the Stone Crusher gaining an Attack for every model in close proximity.
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** Models with the 'Ball & Chain' Extraordinary Skill in ''TabletopGame/BloodBowl'', such as the manic Goblin Fanatic players, carry massive flails so large and heavy that the centrifugal force causes them to move randomly across the pitch and automatically perform a block on any player in their path, enemy or otherwise.