History Headscratchers / TheLegendOfKorraBookTwo

[[folder: Unalaq's ]]

[[folder: Aren't the spirits a bunch of imperialists?]]
* The spirits as seen in the story of Wan have their traditional elf-esque portrayal as in other media, clearly supposed to be seen as wise, noble lovers of nature that disdain humans for their arrogance and lack of respect for nature. But here's the thing: this makes a little sense in other media because they've existed long before humans, but the tale ''clearly'' states that the spirits are the ones who moved into the ''human's'' world, and now the humans are restricted to living on the backs of giant spirits while the wilderness is hostile to them and pretty much all of the livable areas on the planet are under the control of spirits who forbid humans from ever entering even when on the verge of death. Am I missing something, or are the spirits a bunch of maniacally self-important bastards enforcing an apartheid and passing off blatant racism as wisdom?
** Well yes, pretty much. I mean, there is probably a reason Avatar Wan told them to GTFO. The spirits are portrayed has a bunch of jerkasses, who place little to no value on human life (they are immortals and virtually indestructibles). What is worse is that Wan placed the seals to prevent the HUMANS from entering the spirit world, but at the same time, the spirits can somehow cross over to the human world. So a you can have a kaiju/panda/MP-eva thingie with a very poor grasp of ecology levelling your hometown because a fire burned a nearby forest. Which mean your house got razed by a being from another dimension because a forest in your own dimension caught fire. Kinda like having your dog crapping in your backyard, and then your superpowered neighbour, whose backyard is still in pristine condition, come and beat you up something fierce. BlueAndOrangeMorality isn't an excuse for everything ya know.
** I believe the goal in Legend of Korra was to show the spirits and humans as roughly equally to blame for the aggressions but clearly they failed in that. The spirits came across as the clear bad guys with the humans cowering on their Lion Turtles barely able to feed themselves. However there seem to be discrepancies between the original series and Korra when it comes to spirits. In Avatar it seemed that the spirit world was "layered" for a lack of better terms over/under the human realm. That Kaiju/Panda had a good reason for being upset about the forest fire, actions in the human realm have/had consequences in the spirit realm and vice versa. That doesn't seem to be true any longer.
** That was something already set up with Aang. The only clear-cut nice spirits we meet are the previous Avatars, Yue, the Painted Lady and the Lion Turtle. Koh is an EldritchAbomination that attacks humans and spirits for no good reason and [[NeverMyFault has the gal to complain that the Avatar tried killing him before]], [[{{Hypocrite}} because he stole Kuruk's wife's face for no good reason]]. Wan Shi Tong claims to be TheOmniscient, but considers human affairs and nature below his opinions and rules, [[spoiler: and sells Jinora out to Unalaq]]. Hei-Bai attacked an innocent village because the Fire Nation attacked his forest, showing he also doesn't really care to tell one group of humans from another, despite his friendship with Aang. Aye-aye and even Raava herself were quite the [[FantasticRacism Fantastic Racist]] Jerks when she first met Wan, and it's her rude dismissal towards him that made him think Vaatu was the innocent one, in spite of looks; also, Wan never calls Aye-aye out on the fact he and the other Spirits killed his human friend, though that might be blamed on Vaatu's influence. The Spirits are basically Avatarverse's Gods, and many are quite the Jerkass Gods at that. [[spoiler: Korra is going to have her hands full, but maybe she'll be able to establish peace and kick Koh and Wan Shi Tong's asses.]]
** The nature and relationship of the spirit world may have changed somewhat in the last 10,000 years. That said, when Aang goes to the spirit world in the first season finale, the terrain is clearly not "layered" over the human realm. It's clearly a different place.
** These arguments would be totally legit... if it wasn't for the existence of the ancient Air Nomads. They were able to live in total harmony with the spirits, and, from the way they reacted upon meeting Wan, they were probably living on their Lion Turtle to protect themselves from other ''humans.'' The spirits were also very quick to befriend Wan when they saw how much respect he had for nature - before meeting him the only other humans who ventured into the forest were firebenders who attacked spirits on sight.
** And that argument would be totally legit...if it wasn't the spirits suddenly coming into the mundane world and driving the humans into near extinction, reducing them to living in exactly four enclaves on the backs of giant lion-turtles. Let's not forget who invaded who first, here.
** Unfortunately thanks to Wan, Vastu broke free and turned all the spirits bad, right when they were about to make peace with the humans.
** The most tangible and justifiable reason for which spirits dislike humans was that they didn't respect nature - a belief shared by Aye-aye, Hei Bai (in a roundabout way), and possibly Raava. That was the reason why they lived peacefully alongside the first airbenders, who were pacifists and vegetarians, but were shown to be more at odds with firebenders, who burned down forests and hunted animals for their food. So while they're still docked points for invading the mortal realm in the first place, both sides have lessons to learn - humans should learn to respect nature (especially if the state of the natural world affects the spirits in some way, like it did Hei Bai and the Painted Lady), but the spirits also should learn to be less judgmental of human lifestyles, since not all people can be expected to be as peaceful (or vegan) as the Air nomads were all the time.
*** And this is, of course, not counting spirits like Koh or the Mother of Faces (both of whom are actually quite helpful to humans, despite their own flaws), Wan Shi Tong (who supposedly welcomed humans into his library freely before he "lost faith" in them, and then randomly teamed up with Unalaq), the spirits of the moon and the ocean, the Painted Lady, or the spirits who helped Korra in season 3. With all these in mind, it seems the number of spirits we've seen who help or at least tolerate humans is actually greater than that of the ones who denounce them.
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*** Even if they were spirit eaten that doesent mean its not immortal, it would either regenerate or leave its body to form a new one, it would be very unpleasant but it would still live, also at that point all spirits the humans encountered were in the material world

** The most likely explanation is that he was just flat-out ''lying''. Vaatu is basically Satan, after all, and if there's one thing Satan is traditionally pretty good at -- whether it's to convince someone to let him free, or to break someone's hope -- it's lying.

[[folder: What'll happen to the state of the world now? What about Korra? And how will the next two seasons top the second season's finale?]]

* [[spoiler:Are Spirits going to freely roam the world, and anyone can freely visit the Spirit World if they visit the North and South Poles? Did Vaatu's defeat eliminate all Dark Spirits? Is Korra now the first in a new line of Avatars? Are they really going to leave all the connections to the past Avatars severed like that? What the hell did Jinora do in the finale? And finally, Korra managed to defeat Vaatu, who is basically a GodOfEvil. How are the next two seasons going to top that?]]
** Yes, yes, no, yes, maybe, battery, no. In more detail: Korra explicitly states that the purpose of leaving the portals open was to allow spirits and humans to mix. Obviously, she needs to keep things balanced to make sure the world doesn't turn into a DeathWorld like it was in Wan's time, but she's willing to give both sides a chance to live peacefully. Vaatu's defeat did not eliminate all dark spirits (you can see a horde of them attacking the Krew after), it just means there's not a spirit of evil and chaos actively turning them dark. Yes, Korra is the first in the new line of Avatars--unless she manages to reconnect to all her past lives. They're not utterly destroyed, she just lost contact with them, so they might be able to come up with a way to reforge the connections. Jinora simply lent Korra her spirit energy (which she has shown to have in abundance) to break out of Unalaq's spirit bending. Finally, they don't necessarily have to ''top'' beating Vaatu. They could decided to bring the plot back a bit more local, or just focus on slightly more mundane threats.
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** While it wouldent be a very structured order Unalag could rule over the chaotic world Vaatu creates, there likely wouldent be much of a chain of command, but in a world with no rules the strongest rule, and Unavaatu would have unqeustionably been the strongest

* In the season 2 finale Korra was able to defeat Vaatu, just not by killing him. Vaatu and Unalaq tried to outright kill Raava. While Korra used Spiritbending to purify Vaatu like any other angry spirit, [[DisappearsIntoLight he even vanished in a gentle golden light]]. So does that mean if and when he comes back he wont be a hostile spirit anymore?
** Dark and Light corolate to chaos and order more then good and evil,Dark spirits arent innately malicious, merely in an unbalanced state that causes them to lash out, similerly light spirits can be malicious without becoming dark spirits(such as koh), Raava and Vaatu are a special case in that they exist purely in one form, with the other effectively being the light/dark form existing as a seperate entity, this is why Vaatu disapears rather then turning into a light spirit, he has no light side so purifying the dark destroys him, though he will regenerate from Raava eventually

* Apparently, the new Avatar dies essentially simultaneously with the death of the previous one. Presumably this is a spiritual thing, not coincidental - the mother goes into labor and gives birth slightly earlier or later than she should have to time it correctly. What if there are no babies being born at that time? With how small the populations of the Air Nomads and Water Tribes are, someone determined enough could kill all pregnant women. What would happen then?

[[folder:Severing the Avatar's past lives.]]
* Now this may sound like a bit of a rant, but let's talk about the biggest elephant in the room: '''Avatar Korra losing her connection with her previous lives and never regaining them.''' I'll admit, it was a pretty bold move to do in the show and at the time, blew my mind that they [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt actually removed Raava and destroyed her]], but I am honestly annoyed and moreso confused as to why they would leave Korra's severed connections to her past lives unresolved and just finish the show like that. It's obvious that it was to reflect the next book in "Change" but the Avatar has been threatened to cease to exist before ''because'' of losing past lives. The ones that come to mind are when Aang in the previous show got struck by lightning and then had to find his previous four lives to prevent the Avatar being destroyed. Now admittedly that bit was a bonus extra that never made it into the final cut for the show, but the other one gives it more credibility. That being when Korra loses her memories and has to find Wan, the first Avatar to sequentially find Raava in order to prevent, again, the Avatar spirit from being destroyed.\\
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Taking from these two, it's clearly obvious that no past lives = Avatar Spirit being destroyed. Yet it's never resolved. Yes it's change but the Avatar Spirit is an entity that needs to be the constant or else it fails to exist. Another implication that leads to this is the hint that all the incarnations of the Avatar are Wan reincarnated, as hinted by Raava. I guess the point I'm asking here is "Why didn't they resolve the severing of her past lives?"
** It was "resolved." She lost the connection, the end. That's the resolution. The whole point of the four seasons is that things change -- not everything is fixed and goes back to the way it was. The Avatar has never been threatened to cease to exist because of losing past lives. The Avatar would cease to exist if killed in the Avatar State. This is because in the Avatar state '''Raava''' is the one at risk, and if Raava is "killed," then she reforms in Vaatu -- and without the Harmonic Conversion right there, that means the Avatar can't be remade.
** The Avatar is an entity that has been going through the same cycle for 10,000 years at this point. Something like that can't just be wiped a clean slate and expect to not have negative effects on it. As I explain a little down, it's Wan's side of the Avatar spirit that's affected negatively because of this. That they linger on the topic of Korra still being unable to reconnect with her past lives well after the fact makes it seem like it's an issue that should be resolved soon, but it's never done. I don't disagree that things change but they can be changed for the worst.
** OP here. It's obvious that Raava is part of what makes the Avatar, but aside from the state and the four elements, the most important thing is that she's the thread that holds all the incarnations of Wan together. The Avatar has also been threatened to cease existence ''without'' being in the Avatar State. Aang while on his road to recovery had to reconnect with his past four lives or else this would happen, meaning that the spirit water didn't quite do all the work. Korra when she had been attacked by the Dark Spirit lost her memory, had to be dunked into a spirit water spring and needed to find Raava or else she risked this fate as well. Both times where the Avatar was at risk without being in the Avatar State (Although to be fair, Aang had been killed while in the Avatar State.) Even then the latter case required her to find Wan to find Raava. The fact that both times they need to reconnect with past lives means that those past lives are just as integral to the Avatar Spirit as Raava is.
** Show canon > Online flash game that's never referred to in any other bit of the fiction. I don't recall anyone mentioning the Avatar would cease to exist if Korra didn't regain her memory.
** OP Here. No one said anything about an online flash game. This closest thing to non-canon that I've stated was Aang having to regain his past four lives connections, and even then that was just cut from the show. If you pay attention to what Raava says, she does say to a dying Wan, ''"Don't worry. We will be together for all of your lifetimes. And we will never give up. "'' If that combined with the following few seconds didn't indicate anything, Wan's spirit and Raava's spirit both end up in Wan's next reincarnation. This makes the Avatar losing their past lives a pretty bad thing. And it's not that Aang or Korra would cease to exist due to not regaining their memory, but rather each had to reconnect with past lives to restore the Avatar spirit. In Korra's case she did lose her memory but she was in danger of the dark spirit inside of her destroying her and the Avatar. The key was finding Raava which she couldn't do without first finding Wan. Had she actually lost her connection earlier in the series, this would have been a pretty nasty problem.
** Aang having to find his four past lives ''was'' the online flash game. To my knowledge, it wasn't intended for the show at all. Yes, losing the past lives was a bad thing. Bad things happen, and sometimes they're not completely undone. This series was about change and starting fresh, which is what happened. The previous incarnations ''help'', but they're not so integral as being absolutely necessary for the Avatar to function.
** I've only seen it as a video format, but you're right on it being an online flash game. As for it being canon or not, [[WordOfGod Co-creator Michael Dante DiMartino]] gave it the blessing of being canon to the show and tying loose threads from Book 2 to Book 3.
** I took her not regaining her connection to mean the avatar ''did'' die off. Avatar ''Wan'' died off, at least. When Raava was taken from Korra's body and her connection to her past lives was severed that was the end of Wan's reincarnation cycle, but when Raava and Korra refused they started the reincarnation cycle again. Since Korra was a reincarnation of Wan you can argue that this doesn't make much of a difference, but there seems to be a distinction between Korra's spirit, the avatar spirit (Wan's), and Raava's light spirit, so the next avatar is just gonna get Korra's spirit now instead of Wan's.
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*** Korra was also channeling the worlds energy not her own, so presumidly only one spirit kaiju could exist at a time, and it would have to be someone with a very strong connection to the spirit world at a very spiritual place, so in most cases that would be the avatar anyway

[[folder: Beginnings]]
* According to the YMMV page, "Beginnings" is disliked by some fans due to how it "contradicts lore that was established in the previous series." What this troper is wondering is...''how?'' The first series never went into detail on the origins of the Avatar, the relationship between spirits and humans, the roles of the Lion Turtles, or anything like that. How can "Beginnings" be contradictory when there isn't anything for it to contradict?
** A mild retcon at worst: In ATLA, it was stated in various places (via stories and legends) that the nations each learned bending from external sources (firebenders from dragons, earthbenders from badger moles, airbenders from sky bison and waterbenders from the Moon and Ocean Spirits). Along comes "Beginnings" and "NOPE! Lion Turtles. All of it." While it does contradict previous lore, there's nothing to suggest that the various nations simply remembered it all wrong.
** But doesn't "Beginnings" actually say that both points are true? Benders received the ''ability'' to bend from the lion turtles, but we still see Wan ''learning'' a firebending form by mimicking the moves of a dragon, like the first series said.
*** Again: "Mild retcon at worst", as ATLA suggested that humanity had the potential for bending all along, merely learning the "hows" from dragons, etc (and the Lion Turtle [singular] only showing up in the final season to drop hints about spiritbending).
[[/folder]]

* How is it that Unalaq has a ZeroPercentApprovalRating after his death (to the point where even his children don't care). Sure he was a horrible bastard, but so was Ozai, and he still had a bunch of supporters even after being dethroned as shown in the sequel comics, but Unalaq doesn't have any, even in his own tribe? Speaking of his children not caring, why are we meant to see this as a good thing? Even Zuko didn't act that heartless after Ozai's defeat (and he didn't even object to Aang's decision not to kill him).

* How is it that Unalaq has a 0%ApprovalRating after his death (to the point where even his children don't care). Sure he was a horrible bastard, but so was Ozai, and he still had a bunch of supporters even after being dethroned as shown in the sequel comics, but Unalaq doesn't have any, even in his own tribe? Speaking of his children not caring, why are we meant to see this as a good thing? Even Zuko didn't act that heartless after Ozai's defeat (and he didn't even object to Aang's decision not to kill him.)

** She is the link between the Spirit World and Physical World. This decision is the Avatar's jurisdiction more than anything else in the series. She wouldn't ask the nations of the world the same reason the Southern Water Tribe doesn't have the Fire Lord make decisions about about it's border policies. It's not their decision, Korra saw that the chaos that plagued human-spirit relations in Wan's time has mulled over, and they can co-exist peacefully. And now that humanity has a better handel on bending, any conflict wouldn't be entirely one sided like it was before.

* Korra did NOT abuse her power. The other nations do not dictate what happens to the spirit world. That would be just as bad as the spirits doing it. Yes she doesn't have absolute power

** She is the link between the spirit world and physical world, this decision is the avatars juristiction more then anything else in the series, she wouldent ask the nations of the world the same reason the southern water tribe doesent have the firelore make decisions about about its border policies, its not there decision, Korra saw that the chaos that plagued human-spirit relations in Wans time has mulled over, and they can co-exist peacfully, and now that humanity has a better handle on bending any conflict wouldent be entirely one sided, like it was before
** She ''should'' consult the world leaders, though, because her decision affects all of them. Her being the Avatar gives her ''authority'', but not absolute power. If the chief of the Water Tribe realized that his people had run out of living space and decided to try relocating them into Fire Nation territory, you can bet he wouldn't be able to move forward with that without consulting the Fire Lord about it first. Also, you should improve your spelling and grammar.

** The most tangible and justifiable reason for which spirits dislike humans was that they didn't respect nature - a belief shared by Aye-aye, Hei Bai (in a roundabout way), and possibly Raava. That was the reason why they lived peacefully alongside the first airbenders, who were pacifists and vegetarians, but were shown to be more at odds with firebenders, who burned down forests and hunted animals for their food. So while they're still docked points for invading the mortal realm in the first place, both sides have lessons to learn - humans should learn to respect nature (especially if the state of the natural world affects the spirits in some way, like it did Hei Bai), but the spirits also should learn to be less judgmental of human lifestyles, since not all people can be expected to be as peaceful (or vegan) as the Air nomads were all the time.

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