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** All of the Reaper tech we've seen that indoctrinates tends to be intact and hasn't been blown to pieces. Sovereign was destroyed by a massive explosion in its core. There's not enough intact components of Sovereign to carry out the indoctrination. Even the disabled Reaper was still mostly functional and only had its mind destroyed, and its power systems and most of its technology was still intact, but Sovereign suffered a massive internal detonation.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder:Sovereign's Remains and Indoctrination]]
* According to this and the next game, Reaper bodies can and do indoctrinate people, even after the Reaper is dead. In ME1, Sovereign is blown up right in the middle of the Citadel, and the galactic community spends the next few years reverse engineering tech from it. At least a few things, such as the thanix cannon and EDI, are apparently derived from some extent from Reaper tech salvage from Sovereign's remains. It seems like this ought to have resulted in the indoctrination of people on the Citadel, as well as the scientists who reverse engineered the technology, but nothing ever seems to come of this one instance.
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* [[Headscratchers/MassEffect2Archive4 Archive Page Four]]
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** There's also the fact that not only are they trying to process the fact that you're both alive and working for a terrorist group but also just lived through a Collector attack. Literally everyone who lived through a Collector attack came out some level of traumatised so Kaidan/Ashley aren't going to be emotionally stable on top of everything else.
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* The very last shot before the credits is the massive Reaper fleet coming to life and starting to move towards the Milky Way. Say what? This - and the entire premise of the poorly-written ME3 - pretty much contradicts ''everything'' we have been told about this universe and its sci-tech. Datum: to cover long distances fast, you need a mass relay, and to cover really long distances fast, you need a pair of primary relays. Datum: traveling by FTL takes ridiculous amounts of time over this sort of distance; we learn later it takes over ''six centuries'' to reach the near edge of Andromeda by FTL. Datum: the Reapers' Plan A was to use their deep-space relay paired with the Citadel. When that failed they went to Plan B (build a replacement for Sovereign to do the same sort of thing again). But now we are supposed to believe that the Reapers, denied a relay and so using FTL, can travel from Dark Space in just ''six months????''

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* The very last shot before the credits is the massive Reaper fleet coming to life and starting to move towards the Milky Way. Say what? This - and the entire premise of the poorly-written ME3 third game - pretty much contradicts ''everything'' we have been told about this universe and its sci-tech. Datum: to cover long distances fast, you need a mass relay, and to cover really long distances fast, you need a pair of primary relays. Datum: traveling by FTL takes ridiculous amounts of time over this sort of distance; we learn later it takes over ''six centuries'' to reach the near edge of Andromeda by FTL. Datum: the Reapers' Plan A was to use their deep-space relay paired with the Citadel. When that failed they went to Plan B (build a replacement for Sovereign to do the same sort of thing again). But now we are supposed to believe that the Reapers, denied a relay and so using FTL, can travel from Dark Space in just ''six months????''
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** In addition, if they didn't have easy access to a relay that let them enter the galaxy, they could easily still make that distance if they are within 10,000 light years of a mass relay. We know this because the Reapers are stated to be able to move around 30 light years a day and do not need to stop to discharge. Six months is roughly 360 days. 360 days at 30 ly a day = 10,800 light years, or about 1/10 the diameter of the Milky Way. Assuming that the Reapers don't have a relay within that range outside of the Milky Way they could be anywhere within 10,800 light years from the edge of the galaxy.
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** Dark Space is outside the Milky Way. At no point in the game is it said precisely how far the Reapers were from an easily-accessible relay that would let them deeper into the galaxy. More importantly, we know that the Reapers have multiple relays that connect to Dark Space, as Arrival deals with one such relay. Further, we know exactly how the Reapers got into the Milky Way galaxy: the batarian leadership was indoctrinated and opened another relay that allowed them to launch an attack from inside batarian space.

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** Dark Space is outside the Milky Way. At no point in the game is it said precisely how far the Reapers were from an easily-accessible relay that would let them deeper into the galaxy. More importantly, we know that the Reapers have multiple relays that connect to Dark Space, as Arrival deals with one such relay. Further, we know exactly how They could have easily had more such relays scattered around the Reapers got into the Milky Way galaxy: the batarian leadership was indoctrinated and opened another relay that allowed edges of Dark Space to allow them to launch an attack from inside batarian space.entry.
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** Dark Space is outside the Milky Way. At no point in the game is it said precisely how far the Reapers were from an easily-accessible relay that would let them deeper into the galaxy. More importantly, we know that the Reapers have multiple relays that connect to Dark Space, as Arrival deals with one such relay. Further, we know exactly how the Reapers got into the Milky Way galaxy: the batarian leadership was indoctrinated and opened another relay that allowed them to launch an attack from inside batarian space.

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[[The final shot: massive lore hole]]
* The very last shot before the credits is the massive Reaper fleet coming to life and starting to move towards the Milky Way. Say what? This - and the entire premise of the poorly-written ME3 - pretty much contradicts ''everything'' we have been told about this universe and its sci-tech. Datum: to cover long distances fast, you need a mass relay, and to cover really long distances fast, you need a pair of primary relays. Datum: traveling by FTL takes ridiculous amounts of time over this sort of distance; we learn later it takes over ''six centuries'' to reach the near edge of Andromeda by FTL. Datum: the Reapers' Plan A was to use their deep-space relay paired with the Citadel. When that failed they went to Plan B (build a replacement for Sovereign to do the same sort of thing again). But now we are supposed to believe that the Reapers, denied a relay and so using FTL, can travel from Dark Space in just ''six months????''

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[[The [[folder:The final shot: shot is a massive lore hole]]
* The very last shot before the credits is the massive Reaper fleet coming to life and starting to move towards the Milky Way. Say what? This - and the entire premise of the poorly-written ME3 - pretty much contradicts ''everything'' we have been told about this universe and its sci-tech. Datum: to cover long distances fast, you need a mass relay, and to cover really long distances fast, you need a pair of primary relays. Datum: traveling by FTL takes ridiculous amounts of time over this sort of distance; we learn later it takes over ''six centuries'' to reach the near edge of Andromeda by FTL. Datum: the Reapers' Plan A was to use their deep-space relay paired with the Citadel. When that failed they went to Plan B (build a replacement for Sovereign to do the same sort of thing again). But now we are supposed to believe that the Reapers, denied a relay and so using FTL, can travel from Dark Space in just ''six months????''months????''
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[[/folder]]

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[[/folder]][[/folder]]

[[The final shot: massive lore hole]]
*The very last shot before the credits is the massive Reaper fleet coming to life and starting to move towards the Milky Way. Say what? This - and the entire premise of the poorly-written ME3 - pretty much contradicts ''everything'' we have been told about this universe and its sci-tech. Datum: to cover long distances fast, you need a mass relay, and to cover really long distances fast, you need a pair of primary relays. Datum: traveling by FTL takes ridiculous amounts of time over this sort of distance; we learn later it takes over ''six centuries'' to reach the near edge of Andromeda by FTL. Datum: the Reapers' Plan A was to use their deep-space relay paired with the Citadel. When that failed they went to Plan B (build a replacement for Sovereign to do the same sort of thing again). But now we are supposed to believe that the Reapers, denied a relay and so using FTL, can travel from Dark Space in just ''six months????''
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** The moment Joker moves to intercept the shuttle and gets close enough to do anything about it, he gets shot out of the sky. Ground-based anti-air emplacements are no joke in ''Mass Effect.'' In ''Revelation'' it was shown that even a small vehicle portable anti-air kinetic accelerator battery can shoot down a frigate if it catches the ship in atmosphere where it's kinetic barriers are weakened. A single Krogan Rebellion-era anti-ship emplacement can shoot down a modern cruiser in ''Mass Effect 3.'' Once Vido is back under anti-air cover and has more guards, he's going to be virtually impossible to kill. The whole reason why Zaeed was targeting Vido ''now'' was because he could get inside the refinery and kill him before Vido could run for safety.

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Nixing this odd tangent claiming that a sapient species somehow cannot come up with the idea of sneaking around.


** Finding a concealed route into a strategically important enemy base involves actual stealth and reconnaissance where you sneak around and bypass enemies instead of attacking them. This is however not how Krogan fight. If you talk to the chief scout, he will tell you that their idea of scouting is actually skirmishing for the purposes of harassment and interdiction. They don't sneak around counting enemy numbers then RTB, they skirmish then count the enemy dead. This is also why there are no Krogan infiltrators or snipers - stealth, outflanking, bypassing strong points to hit the soft rear - all of these methods are seen as cowardly and dishonourable by them. So even if there was a stealthy infiltration route to the hospital, these scouts would not just stay hidden and press on. They would go into AttackAttackAttack mode once they spot any enemy patrols. Only way they could make it all the way to the hospital without spotting enemy patrols is if there are no enemy patrols.
*** I'd like a genuine cite on all of these claims that the krogan can't be stealthy, considering the entire conversation with the Urdnot scout completely invalidates most of it. Krogan can and do fight stealthily. That's why they have scouts to begin with. Hell, Garrus' recruitment mission involves the Blood Pack being the ones who have the smartest and sneakiest method of getting into the base. It wouldn't be surprising at all that the Urdnot scout knows a hidden route to get into the Weyrloc camp. And nowhere is it said that the krogan have no snipers or infiltrators; again, they have scouts, and the Urdnot scout says he would have engaged his enemies with a rifle if he'd been close enough to take a good shot. Wrex's entire story about how he was exiled involves a sudden, unexpected betrayal by hidden krogan assassins. Hell, don't forget the Miracle at Palaven, which was dependent on the krogan engaging in a massive stealth insertion and smuggling nuclear weapons into Reaper troopships. They are clearly capable of scouting and stealth when it suits them.
*** Uh, No! Ever seen Krogan enemies use sniper rifles in game? Or cloaks? Or even use cover and concealment to flank you? All they do is plod towards you out in the open. Listen to how they respond to you equipping various weapons. Equip shotguns, and they like it. Equip assault rifles or pistols and they boast that “you’ll need more than that.” However, shoot them with a sniper rifle and they complain about “damn snipers” and taunt you to “come up close and try that.” Use your cloak and they really complain, yelling “Coward” and to “fight like a warrior.” This implies that they are uncomfortable about snipers. Now let’s look at the Urdnot scout’s statement. He says that he could have taken a shot “if I could get close enough.” No true sniper worth his salt would ever complain about being too far from targets clearly in visual range. RealLife human snipers in the present day have made accurate hits from two miles out. Also, a trained scout sniper would find a way to “get close enough”. Heck, look at Thane for that. Krogan scouts don’t reconnoiter, they skirmish. The scout commander plays “hide and seek to make it seem there are more of us.” That is a skirmishing tactic, not a stealthy insertion. Now let’s look at the Blood Pack “brilliantly sneaking in.’ Listen to what the Blue Suns driver tells you - there were only two paths to Garrus’ base, and he collapsed one of those paths to force everyone to come over the bridge. The Blood Pack got to those back door because the Blue Suns blasted through while distracting Garrus with a gunship. Talk to Garn the Blood Pack leader, and he dislikes that plan - he wants to charge in, and ultimately that’s what he does. He comes through the front door, and even those coming through the back door just ZergRush you. As for Wrex, he was ambushed by Krogan who took cover, in a place where he never expected to be attacked. It wasn’t like he had minions sweep the area but found nothing because his dad’s mooks remained hidden - he never even bothered to search, and was then taken by surprise. As for the Krogan hitting the Reaper capital ships, read the Codex entry. Those Krogan pulled an ISurrenderSuckers ploy, they didn’t stealthily sneak aboard. Now look at multiplayer in 3 and Andromeda - no Krogan snipers or infiltrators available at all. They just ain’t got em.


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** It's entirely possible that what we saw defending the base was the extent of Weyrloc's forces in the region. Tuchanka is a nuclear-devastated hellhole, after all. The headquarters of the krogan's most powerful clan is choked with debris and Wrex/Wreav is sitting on a throne made of broken stone. A dozen krogan soldiers and a few dozen vorcha almost certainly is their equivalent of the structure being heavily guarded.

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** For one thing, the information ''isn't'' secure. It's in the hands of a brutal weapons dealer who literally had a man tortured to death in an attempt to access it. The only way that the information is "secure" is because of it's unique code-lock keyed to Kasumi herself. If Hock broke the security on the graybox, he would do what any weapons dealer would do with it: he would sell it, and then it would be out in the open, likely causing a war to erupt. The only way to "secure" the information is to get it out of Hock's hands.
** There's also the fact that, at the time that Shepard is carrying out the mission, Shepard doesn't know what's on the graybox. They only know that it is personally valuable to Kasumi and that the information is dangerous. This whole argument is predicated on Shepard having knowledge that they wouldn't possess at the time. The moment Shepard knows what is on the box and exactly how dangerous it is, they an have Kasumi destroy the graybox to keep the secrets. And even if they did know it, that information is far safer in the hands of someone who wouldn't sell it to the highest bidder like Hock would have.

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Nixing this bizarre speculative tangent that has nothing to do with the discussion in the rest of the folder.


** A spec ops soldier like Shepard would be very wary of someone with loose lips like Kasumi. Could have made for an interesting choice in the end of her LoyaltyMission. Take a chance and trust her with the grey box and she helps you as a stealthy background character on many missions, making them go much easier for you, probably even poking through crates and acquiring credits and upgrades for you, allowing you to focus on the enemies and not be a KleptomaniacHero. The same also applies if you Charm or Intimidate her into destroying the grey box. Destroy the box without convincing her and she walks away in a huff, probably stealing random upgrades and credits on your missions, denying you the capability to go into the SuicideMission fully upgraded, making it much harder and deadly for some people. Don't do her mission at all, and she just parks herself in the Port lounge kvetching at you for ignoring her request.
*** It sounds like you simply didn't like/want the character, or are sore because it cost money for the DLC. There's no logic to have her as an NPC. Not everyone is valuable just for their abilities in a straight firefight. Plus, it's been explained to you multiple times that ''TIM did not know what was beyond the Omega 4 relay''. He was recruiting a TEAM to cover all eventualities, not a squad of soldiers. That's precisely why Kasumi, Tali, Miranda and Thane are on your team! None of them are massively useful in straight-up firefights. Kasumi is an infiltrator tech specialist, Tali is a pure Engineer, Miranda is more of a biotic/tech character than a combat one and Thane's speciality is discreet, fast kills. They aren't like Zaeed, Garrus and Grunt, who are there as heavy combat hitters. It's precisely why you need those hitters - you brought a team for any eventuality, but at one point they have to hold certain ground no matter what. That's where the combat specialists come in.
** Except that, again, while she may be gossipy about ''trivial'' matters between shipmates, she keeps her lips sealed tight about stuff that is ''relevant and important.'' And ''if'' you, as Shepard, decide that its too risky to let Kasumi keep the data and that she might talk about it, you can convince her to destroy it.

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** A spec ops soldier like Shepard would be very wary of someone with loose lips like Kasumi. Could have made for an interesting choice in the end of her LoyaltyMission. Take a chance and trust her with the grey box and she helps you as a stealthy background character on many missions, making them go much easier for you, probably even poking through crates and acquiring credits and upgrades for you, allowing you to focus on the enemies and not be a KleptomaniacHero. The same also applies if you Charm or Intimidate her into destroying the grey box. Destroy the box without convincing her and she walks away in a huff, probably stealing random upgrades and credits on your missions, denying you the capability to go into the SuicideMission fully upgraded, making it much harder and deadly for some people. Don't do her mission at all, and she just parks herself in the Port lounge kvetching at you for ignoring her request.
*** It sounds like you simply didn't like/want the character, or are sore because it cost money for the DLC. There's no logic to have her as an NPC. Not everyone is valuable just for their abilities in a straight firefight. Plus, it's been explained to you multiple times that ''TIM did not know what was beyond the Omega 4 relay''. He was recruiting a TEAM to cover all eventualities, not a squad of soldiers. That's precisely why Kasumi, Tali, Miranda and Thane are on your team! None of them are massively useful in straight-up firefights. Kasumi is an infiltrator tech specialist, Tali is a pure Engineer, Miranda is more of a biotic/tech character than a combat one and Thane's speciality is discreet, fast kills. They aren't like Zaeed, Garrus and Grunt, who are there as heavy combat hitters. It's precisely why you need those hitters - you brought a team for any eventuality, but at one point they have to hold certain ground no matter what. That's where the combat specialists come in.
** Except that, again, while she may be gossipy about ''trivial'' matters between shipmates, she keeps her lips sealed tight about stuff that is ''relevant and important.'' And ''if'' you, as Shepard, decide that its too risky to let Kasumi keep the data and that she might talk about it, you can convince her to destroy it.
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** Even disregarding what's already been said here, let's assume the answer was yes. Why would that be worthy of a headscratcher? ''[[BizarreAlienBiology These are aliens!]]'' The facts that [[HumanoidAlien so many of them are the same size as and use the same body plan as humans]] or that it's [[ExoticEquipment mechanically possible to have sex with them]] ''alone'' strain credulity.
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** Considering that the page on MirrorChemistry itself explains that ethyl alcohol is structured such that it's the same molecule no matter how you flip it, this is probably a case of ShownTheirWork; that said there's obviously a lot more stuff in wine than just the alcohol and water, but if the setting cared that much about [[NoBiochemicalBarriers biochemical barriers]], then ''nobody'' would be able to eat the same things or even breathe the same air.

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** Considering that the page on MirrorChemistry itself explains that ethyl alcohol is structured such that it's the same molecule no matter how you flip it, this is probably a case of ShownTheirWork; that said there's obviously a lot more stuff in wine than just the alcohol and water, but if the setting cared that much about [[NoBiochemicalBarriers biochemical barriers]], then ''nobody'' would be able to eat the same things or even breathe the same air.air ([[InterspeciesRomance or have sex with eachother, for that matter]]).
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** Considering that the page on MirrorChemistry itself explains that ethyl alcohol is structured such that it's the same molecule no matter how you flip it, this is probably a case of ShownTheirWork; that said there's obviously a lot more stuff in wine than just the alcohol and water, but if the setting cared that much about [[NoBiochemicalBarriers biochemical barriers]], then ''nobody'' would be able to eat the same things or even breathe the same air.
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*** To answer your question: with her ridiculously powerful biotics. Of the above mentioned characters only Samara and Shepard would stand a chance against her. Yes, a couple of your squadmates could be a threat to her, but only if they already knew she was coming and her guard was down. Her recruitment missions basically has her kill the prison ship holding her while ripping through mechs and guards like tissue paper. Also keep in mind that most of the crewmembers that could threaten her don't join until the second half, by which time Jack's pretty sure Shepard isn't trying to screw her. The Normandy is actually safer than most places she could be, Cerberus alignment or no.
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*** Relatively safe? How does she intend to kill the best assassin in the galaxy, a justicar, a baby krogan beast, a mercenary who survived a headshot and Garrus if they mess with her? Oh, and a Spectre, if all that wasn't enough. Jack's confident, not stupid. She'd be more likely to survive on Omega than on a ship full of so many powerhouses...if they ever tried to mess with her. As to why she didn't leave the ship: "Keep your friends close to you and your enemies even closer". She loathed Cerberus; keeping an eye on them from 'the inside' could prove useful. That, and she had nowhere else to go.

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*** Relatively ****Relatively safe? How does she intend to kill the best assassin in the galaxy, a justicar, a baby krogan beast, a mercenary who survived a headshot and Garrus if they mess with her? Oh, and a Spectre, if all that wasn't enough. Jack's confident, not stupid. She'd be more likely to survive on Omega than on a ship full of so many powerhouses...if they ever tried to mess with her. As to why she didn't leave the ship: "Keep your your friends close to you and your enemies even closer". She loathed Cerberus; keeping an eye on them from 'the inside' could prove useful. That, and she had nowhere else to go.
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** Geth can hack into pretty much anything. Who's to say they didn't get all those credits illegally?


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****Relatively safe? How does she intend to kill the best assassin in the galaxy, a justicar, a baby krogan beast, a mercenary who survived a headshot and Garrus if they mess with her? Oh, and a Spectre, if all that wasn't enough. Jack's confident, not stupid. She'd be more likely to survive on Omega than on a ship full of so many powerhouses...if they ever tried to mess with her. As to why she didn't leave the ship: "Keep your friends close to you and your enemies even closer". She loathed Cerberus; keeping an eye on them from 'the inside' could prove useful. That, and she had nowhere else to go.
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** Aside from being an excellent squadmate against the Collectors, as you mentioned he's also ideal at escorting the crew back. Think back at how he saved those salarians in his recruitment mission. It almost hints that he's good at protecting people. With his abilities he can snipe from the shadows or kill with biotics any Collectors who get in the crew's way, before they can even get close to them, all the while by being possibly undetected; he is an assassin after all. I know than Mordin is another member who in theory can work for this job, but for some reason he always ends up dying in my playthroughs, loyal or not.
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*** Maybe they got it from ships they captured or during their raids in the first game which they kept in case they needed to keep prisoners alive (to interrogate if nothing else).
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** They were poor compared to Miranda's father, who had enough wealth and means to create a DesignerBaby with powerful biotics a year before biotics were officially discovered.

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The Keepers and sabotage were separate things.


* So the BigReveal of Mass Effect 1 is that the Citadel is a giant mass relay that the Reapers come through when it's time to invade, and that the Keepers were a species re-engineered by the Reapers, similar to the Collectors, in charge of keeping this relay in working order and hiding its true purpose from the Citadel's residents. Why is this never brought up again in Mass Effect 2? Even if most of the Council races believe that Sovereign was just a really big geth ship, surely they'd have asked why he wanted to plug himself into the Citadel and figured out the relay by now.

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* So the BigReveal TheReveal of Mass Effect 1 is that the Citadel is a giant mass relay that the Reapers come through when it's time to invade, and that the Keepers were a species re-engineered by the Reapers, similar to the Collectors, in charge of keeping this relay in working order and hiding its true purpose from the Citadel's residents. Why is this never brought up again in Mass Effect 2? Even if most of the Council races believe that Sovereign was just a really big geth ship, surely they'd have asked why he wanted to plug himself into the Citadel and figured out the relay by now.



** That's kind of the entire plot of the first game...
** That's exactly how they usually do things. The Protheans sabotaged the Keepers so they can't respond to the Reaper signal. That's the whole reason Sovereign had to get Saren's help: the Protheans were forcing them to improvise.

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** That's kind of the entire plot of the first game...
** That's exactly how they usually do things. The Protheans sabotaged the Keepers Citadel so they can't it didn't't respond to the Reaper signal. That's the whole reason Sovereign had to get Saren's help: the Protheans were forcing them to improvise.


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*** The master control unit is a black box that wouldn't do anything suspicious without Reaper codes, something they wouldn't accidentally stumble across.
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** It's just a humorous sign that this is completely out of Garrus's depth and he has no idea what he's supposed to be doing here, so he's compensating for it by trying too hard. ("Crap, I knew I should have watched the vids. Throw me a line here, Shepard.")
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** Kar'Danna is form the Rayya, which is the same ship Tali was born on. Since Kar'Danna is the captain, that would either make him the highest ranking officer (or second highest depending on how Rael fits into the ship's chain of command, since he his an admiral). Tali mentions how the quarians are more like a very large family, so Tali would probably be close friends with the captain of her birth ship, especially since Rael is stated to be a very 'distant' father. As for the wink; I think that was just an animation error, and it looked more like her was squinting/had something in his eye.

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** Kar'Danna is form from the Rayya, which is the same ship Tali was born on. Since Kar'Danna is the captain, that would either make him the highest ranking officer (or second highest depending on how Rael fits into the ship's chain of command, since he his an admiral). Tali mentions how the quarians are more like a very large family, so Tali would probably be close friends with the captain of her birth ship, especially since Rael is stated to be a very 'distant' father. As for the wink; I think that was just an animation error, and it looked more like her was squinting/had something in his eye.
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** Kar'Danna is form the Rayya, which is the same ship Tali was born on. Since Kar'Danna is the captain, that would either make him the highest ranking officer (or second highest depending on how Rael fits into the ship's chain of command, since he his an admiral). Tali mentions how the quarians are more like a very large family, so Tali would probably be close friends with the captain of her birth ship, especially since Rael is stated to be a very 'distant' father. As for the wink; I think that was just an animation error, and it looked more like her was squinting/had something in his eye.
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** This is, in a roundabout way, backed up in Mass Effect 3, when we see it is possible to slow one's descent while falling using normal biotics (as Samara does in the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery). If a Justicar can do that on her own, the Reapers, who've had a few million years to ponder the applications of element zero and cybernetics, can probably improve on that.
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** Human couples often bring wine when they have intimate relations. Garrus was simply imitating the custom; presumably he only brought wine for Shepard, since turian romance likely doesn't have that as a common element.

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