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* At the end of the first film, all the cenobites get sent back to hell. Except the Butterball, he gets crushed by some falling masonry. But he's a demon, it'll take more that a falling rock to kill him. Sure, it'll be painful but he can obviously deal with that. IDK, it just bugs me.
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* At the end of the first film, all the cenobites Cenobites get sent back to hell. Except the Butterball, he gets crushed by some falling masonry. But he's a demon, it'll take more that a falling rock to kill him. Sure, it'll be painful but he can obviously deal with that. IDK, it just bugs me.
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** Also, bear in mind that in order to escape in Hellseeker, Kirsty bargains for 5 souls in exchange for hers, including at least one mistress who didn’t seem to know Trevor was married. It’s possible that she’ll be damned for that and Pinhead knows it, so he’s content with playing the waiting game to make her a Cenobite.
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** Also, bear in mind that in order to escape in Hellseeker, Kirsty bargains for 5 souls in exchange for hers, including at least one mistress who didn’t didn't seem to know Trevor was married. It’s It's possible that she’ll she'll be damned for that and Pinhead knows it, so he’s he's content with playing the waiting game to make her a Cenobite.
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* How the [[{{Pun}} hell]] did Channard kill the Cenobites in Hellbound? And what’s up with the phallic tube attached to his head?
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* How the [[{{Pun}} hell]] did Channard kill the Cenobites in Hellbound? And what’s what's up with the phallic tube attached to his head?
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** Although for that matter whats the actual distinction between people who enter this place? Certain people are considered Cenobite material like Spencer and Channard. We see Frank ends up in an IronicHell but Julia on the other hand doesn't seem to get this treatment, as she leads Channard through the place there seems to be people freely having sex happily. Perhaps maybe what Frank got in Hellbound is actually the rare exception for people who try to escape? Later sequels like Inferno and Hellseeker run on the idea this was the norm, but based only on the book and first two movies its reasonable to consider.
* How the [[IncrediblyLamePun hell]] did Channard kill the Cenobites in Hellbound? And what’s up with the phallic tube attached to his head?
* How the [[IncrediblyLamePun hell]] did Channard kill the Cenobites in Hellbound? And what’s up with the phallic tube attached to his head?
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** Although for that matter whats the actual distinction between people who enter this place? Certain people are considered Cenobite material like Spencer and Channard. We see Frank ends up in an IronicHell but Julia on the other hand doesn't seem to get this treatment, as she leads Channard through the place there seems to be people freely having sex happily. Perhaps maybe what Frank got in Hellbound is actually the rare exception for people who try to escape? Later sequels like Inferno and Hellseeker run on the idea this was the norm, norm but based only on the book and first two movies its it's reasonable to consider.
* How the[[IncrediblyLamePun [[{{Pun}} hell]] did Channard kill the Cenobites in Hellbound? And what’s up with the phallic tube attached to his head?
* How the
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* Something has always bothered me about the second movie. When Kirsty first runs into the Cenobites and asks about her father, Pinhead tells her that her father is “in his own Hell, quite unreachable.” However, later we find out that Larry wasn't the one leaving messages for her, it was Frank trying to trick her into joining him in Hell. So what was Pinhead talking about? Was he implying that Larry was somewhere else in Hell and Kirsty just never got around to finding him? Talk about TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot! For that matter, what would a generally nice guy like Larry, who never had any dealings with the Cenobites himself, be doing in Hell?
** In the Boom comics series Hellraiser: The Dark Watch (Written in part by Barker) we learn that Larry Cotton actually [[spoiler:IS in his own hell. He's not even in the Labyrinth, he's in the Oubliette, the hell of Fury which is run by Abaddon. Turns out the old man had a temper.]]
** Alternately, it could be FridgeBrilliance: to the torture-savoring Cenobites, ''Heaven'' would be as terrible as Hell is for ordinary mortals. So if you don't accept the above comic as canon, you could conclude that Larry didn't go to Hell at all, Pinhead just thinks of Heaven as another, inaccessible Hell.
** Larry is not that great a guy, though certainly not in his brother's league. Be that as it may, he does come very near to committing marital rape in the first film: note the scene in which Julia is, ironically, trying to save his life by pleading with Frank to spare him, while from Larry's perspective she seems to be pleading with him to stop making love to her ... and it takes far more pleading than it ought to (and he complains about it afterwards - not his proudest moment). He also shows his misogynist streak when he sneers at Julia's reluctance to play barmaid for the leering removal men. Larry does have a dark and nasty side, though he is certainly more reticent about expressing it than Frank.
** Kirsty did mistake Frank for her father in the first film when he was wearing Larry's skin. Pinhead was probably confused and assumed Frank was Kirsty's father. Alternatively, Pinhead could have been mocking Kirsty and was lying all along.
** The second movie was made when they hadn't yet retconned the Cenobite's home dimension into the Christian Hell. It was just another dimension ruled by a malevolent god-thing and inhabited by S&M cultists. Presumably Pinhead was just using "his own Hell" to refer to what he believed the afterlife to be.
** In the Boom comics series Hellraiser: The Dark Watch (Written in part by Barker) we learn that Larry Cotton actually [[spoiler:IS in his own hell. He's not even in the Labyrinth, he's in the Oubliette, the hell of Fury which is run by Abaddon. Turns out the old man had a temper.]]
** Alternately, it could be FridgeBrilliance: to the torture-savoring Cenobites, ''Heaven'' would be as terrible as Hell is for ordinary mortals. So if you don't accept the above comic as canon, you could conclude that Larry didn't go to Hell at all, Pinhead just thinks of Heaven as another, inaccessible Hell.
** Larry is not that great a guy, though certainly not in his brother's league. Be that as it may, he does come very near to committing marital rape in the first film: note the scene in which Julia is, ironically, trying to save his life by pleading with Frank to spare him, while from Larry's perspective she seems to be pleading with him to stop making love to her ... and it takes far more pleading than it ought to (and he complains about it afterwards - not his proudest moment). He also shows his misogynist streak when he sneers at Julia's reluctance to play barmaid for the leering removal men. Larry does have a dark and nasty side, though he is certainly more reticent about expressing it than Frank.
** Kirsty did mistake Frank for her father in the first film when he was wearing Larry's skin. Pinhead was probably confused and assumed Frank was Kirsty's father. Alternatively, Pinhead could have been mocking Kirsty and was lying all along.
** The second movie was made when they hadn't yet retconned the Cenobite's home dimension into the Christian Hell. It was just another dimension ruled by a malevolent god-thing and inhabited by S&M cultists. Presumably Pinhead was just using "his own Hell" to refer to what he believed the afterlife to be.
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* "It's not words that call us, it's desire" Pinhead says this in Hellraiser 2. How does that make any sense? No one desires to be tortured by the cenobites. Kirsty didn't even know what it did when she opened it in the first movie.
** Pinhead meant that the girl didn't have the capacity for desire as she was in a borderline catatonic state. So taking her back wouldn't do anything for them or her.
** That being said he says "it's not hands that summon us, it was desire". It was Tiffany's hands that physically solved the puzzle but Channard's desire that put it in her hands. His desire was the cause for their arrival quite factually.
** Possibly the embarrassment of having come to claim the wrong person from the first film has got to Pinhead enough that he is more careful not to judge from appearances, so on this occasion he reads the signs and quickly deduces that Tiffany is not the type (perverse, evil, morbidly insatiable etc) to use a Lament Configuration with conscious intent. We already know from the first film that Lament boxes tend to be sold to their owners with some degree of false advertising concerning the untold pleasures they will bestow ... Since Pinhead still has residual memories of having been such an owner, he knows the type he is looking for, and Tiffany is not it (Kirsty, at all events, is a more plausible seeker of forbidden knowledge).
** Also, the Lament Box (as Kirsty reveals in the video recordings Joey views in the third film) actively assists those whom it has chosen to claim / torture / Cenobite-ify, etc. Evidently, it had set its sights on Kirsty. Tiffany is surplus: she was just able to solve it without help because of her own genius at puzzle-solving.
** It's not about wanting torture specifically, it's about wanting something outre, beyond their normal life. Be that a distraction from PTSD, new forms of pleasure, knowledge of the occult, an explanation for why your uncle is a skinless creep... all of these are desires the Cenobites heed. It's just they only recognise one way to fulfil these desires.
** Certain other materials have pretty much played up the idea Kirsty always was Cenobite material, and is a major reason they want her so bad. Hellseeker turning her into a multiple murderer totally helped fuel that idea.
** Pinhead meant that the girl didn't have the capacity for desire as she was in a borderline catatonic state. So taking her back wouldn't do anything for them or her.
** That being said he says "it's not hands that summon us, it was desire". It was Tiffany's hands that physically solved the puzzle but Channard's desire that put it in her hands. His desire was the cause for their arrival quite factually.
** Possibly the embarrassment of having come to claim the wrong person from the first film has got to Pinhead enough that he is more careful not to judge from appearances, so on this occasion he reads the signs and quickly deduces that Tiffany is not the type (perverse, evil, morbidly insatiable etc) to use a Lament Configuration with conscious intent. We already know from the first film that Lament boxes tend to be sold to their owners with some degree of false advertising concerning the untold pleasures they will bestow ... Since Pinhead still has residual memories of having been such an owner, he knows the type he is looking for, and Tiffany is not it (Kirsty, at all events, is a more plausible seeker of forbidden knowledge).
** Also, the Lament Box (as Kirsty reveals in the video recordings Joey views in the third film) actively assists those whom it has chosen to claim / torture / Cenobite-ify, etc. Evidently, it had set its sights on Kirsty. Tiffany is surplus: she was just able to solve it without help because of her own genius at puzzle-solving.
** It's not about wanting torture specifically, it's about wanting something outre, beyond their normal life. Be that a distraction from PTSD, new forms of pleasure, knowledge of the occult, an explanation for why your uncle is a skinless creep... all of these are desires the Cenobites heed. It's just they only recognise one way to fulfil these desires.
** Certain other materials have pretty much played up the idea Kirsty always was Cenobite material, and is a major reason they want her so bad. Hellseeker turning her into a multiple murderer totally helped fuel that idea.
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** Pinhead meant that the girl didn't have the capacity for desire as she was in a borderline catatonic state. So taking her back wouldn't do anything for them or her.
** That being said he says "it's not hands that summon us, it was desire". It was Tiffany's hands that physically solved the puzzle but Channard's desire that put it in her hands. His desire was the cause for their arrival quite factually.
** Possibly the embarrassment of having come to claim the wrong person from the first film has got to Pinhead enough that he is more careful not to judge from appearances, so on this occasion he reads the signs and quickly deduces that Tiffany is not the type (perverse, evil, morbidly insatiable etc) to use a Lament Configuration with conscious intent. We already know from the first film that Lament boxes tend to be sold to their owners with some degree of false advertising concerning the untold pleasures they will bestow ... Since Pinhead still has residual memories of having been such an owner, he knows the type he is looking for, and Tiffany is not it (Kirsty, at all events, is a more plausible seeker of forbidden knowledge).
** Also, the Lament Box (as Kirsty reveals in the video recordings Joey views in the third film) actively assists those whom it has chosen to claim / torture / Cenobite-ify, etc. Evidently, it had set its sights on Kirsty. Tiffany is surplus: she was just able to solve it without help because of her own genius at puzzle-solving.
** It's not about wanting torture specifically, it's about wanting something outre, beyond their normal life. Be that a distraction from PTSD, new forms of pleasure, knowledge of the occult, an explanation for why your uncle is a skinless creep... all of these are desires the Cenobites heed. It's just they only recognise one way to fulfil these desires.
** Certain other materials have pretty much played up the idea Kirsty always was Cenobite material, and is a major reason they want her so bad. Hellseeker turning her into a multiple murderer totally helped fuel that idea.
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*** I would wonder if the movie's ending was studio-imposed. It seems to fit the demands for an action climax, which was the increasing convention for horror movies at the time. (I think if the film had been made just a decade earlier, it would have been more open to an ending like the one in the novella.) I'm not saying the ending is a flaw in the movie per se, though speaking personally, I find the idea that the Cenobites would honor their side of the deal a bit more interesting. For what it's worth, the scene in the second film where they refuse to take Tiffany does show that they still have rules they operate by. But the ''Hellseeker'' segment where they make a deal with Kristy made no sense and was definitely a sign of series decay.
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** Certain other materials have pretty much played up the idea Kirsty always was Cenobite material, and is a major reason they want her so bad. Hellseeker turning her into a multiple murderer totally helped fuel that idea.
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** probably also depends on your definitions of order and hedonism. Barker's original intention was more of S&M religion that pushes that extreme pleasure and extreme pain is a very thin or irrelevant line. One major problem is that hedonism is far more often associated with chaos rather than order. The Cenobites are kinda a weird mixture between the traditional lines of order vs chaos.
** Although for that matter whats the actual distinction between people who enter this place? Certain people are considered Cenobite material like Spencer and Channard. We see Frank ends up in an IronicHell but Julia on the other hand doesn't seem to get this treatment, as she leads Channard through the place there seems to be people freely having sex happily. Perhaps maybe what Frank got in Hellbound is actually the rare exception for people who try to escape? Later sequels like Inferno and Hellseeker run on the idea this was the norm, but based only on the book and first two movies its reasonable to consider.
** Although for that matter whats the actual distinction between people who enter this place? Certain people are considered Cenobite material like Spencer and Channard. We see Frank ends up in an IronicHell but Julia on the other hand doesn't seem to get this treatment, as she leads Channard through the place there seems to be people freely having sex happily. Perhaps maybe what Frank got in Hellbound is actually the rare exception for people who try to escape? Later sequels like Inferno and Hellseeker run on the idea this was the norm, but based only on the book and first two movies its reasonable to consider.
