This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Dalantia: This is seriously starting to look like it's becoming a Subjective Trope. Should we slap that tag on it?
Okay, after a week or so with no response, and people citing this as subjective? It gets the tag.
Jack Slack: OK, I really do have to ask. Drawn Together ? Really? I mean, don't get me wrong, I laughed at it for one whole episode, but there was a reason that the Cartoon Network joked that it proved not all American cartoons had to be funny.
Devil's Advocate : Are we casting our nets too broadly here to make Too Good to Last "any unusually good show?" Maybe it's just me, but the definition—and some of the first shows listed in the early versions of this entry—hint at some kind of difficult-to-define-but-I-know-it-when-I-see-it "quirkiness", for lack of a better term. Northern Exposure, Sports Night, and Wonderfalls all had it. Many of the shows on this list I'm not familiar with so I can't comment on. I'm not familiar enough with Buffy, Angel, or The Shield to say definitively that they shouldn't fall into this category, but from the few episodes I've seen of these, I'm not really sure they should be here. I am a big fan of Babylon 5 — having seen almost every episode—and while it is a great show, it doesn't have the "quirkiness" that marks a Too Good To Last. I guess my concern here is that the term is less meaningful if it becomes so broad as to mean any unusually good show.
Gus: The first bulleted list is valid. All the shows were well crafted and soon dead. The exemptions list is a bit iffy. They might be pulled out to something like Shows That Got Away With Quality.
Looney Toons: Does Farscape really belong on that list? As I recall it lasted several seasons — far longer than the usual "Too Good To Last" show.
Devil's Advocate: I think I agree. I would propose that a reasonable cutoff be based on the number of episodes rather than the number of seasons, since cable shows tend to have shorter seasons than shows airing on broadcast networks. (Broadcast network seasons, at least for non-reality shows, tend to be around 22 episodes, while cable seasons are often closer to 13 episodes.)
I was a bit conflicted when I added Remember WENN to this list, as it did get four seasons on A&E, but justified it to myself on the grounds that it was only 56 episodes, equivalent to about 2 1/2 seasons of a broadcast network show.
In histories of Star Trek, it is often explained that the third season of Star Trek The Original Series was key to everything that came after: the third season resulted in a total of 79 episodes for the entire series, which was viable to be sold into syndication, so reruns were widely shown long after the series was cancelled, resulting in legions of fans who had never seen the original airing (many of whom were not even born when it originally aired, myself included)—and from that followed the movies, and then all the subsequent Star Trek series. Had Star Trek The Original Series been cancelled after its second season (a total of 55 episodes for the series), it would not have been possible to sell reruns in syndication.
Therefore I'd propose a "Star Trek cutoff", somewhere in the neighborhood of 65-75 episodes, or the equivalent of three full seasons on a broadcast network, constituting a successful series, and ineligibility for the Too Good to Last list. Farscape apparently had 88 episodes.
//A particularly crass variation on this is the Disney cartoon Kim Possible. It's in the middle of its peak of popularity, has a broad fanbase that is still growing, has marketing tie-ins and merchandising blitzes lined up.... And it just aired its last new episode.
// Red Shoe: Perhaps we can allow an extension for shows that survive longer only after massive Executive Meddling. (I'm not suggesting a show that gets a massive retool and survives, but rather a show that dies a long slow death as the powers that be slowly strip away everything good about the show to make it more mainstream, rather than just cancelling it immediately.)
//Gus: The notion of Series Decay is certainly interesting here. I suppose (hopefully, without starting a flamewar) that X-Files, Happy Days, and other series accused of Jumping the Shark all went through a period of decline/decay brought on by some definable factor (as, for instance, Executive Meddling ). I would also cite such factors as creative exhaustion, a premise with no "legs", and casting disappointments, which are not necessarily brought on by the "suits."
Ununnilium: For some reason, nobody ever cut Farscape from the list. Done now.
Bob: Then, wouldn't that make Farscape an exception to this rule, like Buffy The Vampire Slayer or Angel?
Ununnilium: As much as I love MST3K and wish there were more, it lasted ten seasons on cable. I'm-a take it off. ...later: And I see it's an exception, not an example. D'oh. ^^;
Morgan Wick: Well, either the mainstream just isn't interested in this show ("If it's called Sports Night, where are the highlights?"), I want to link to Viewers Are Morons somehow.
Ununnilium: Hm. "where are the highlights" would be my choice.
Ununnilium: "NBC would cancel Christmas, if the numbers weren't right." You just know this is going to spawn yet another Christmas Carol parody.
(Meanwhile, the show it replaced was too terrible to last, wallowing in its creator's ego and all.)
...no. Just no.
Space Ace: In that same vein I protest the inclusion of Odyssey 5 in this list. OK, I have seen only two episodes, but both were so horrible that they scarred me forever.
Let me explain. I'm paging through the TV-guide and notice there's a sci-fi show on that I've never so much as heard of. Being a massive science fiction geek, I decide to watch it, because the world needs more science fiction. So I sit down that night and discover that the show takes place 20 Minutes into the Future. Bummer. No cool spaceships or rayguns or whatever. Oh, and the acting is downright horrible. But the main characters quickly run into an android, so that must be promising, right? Well, the android explains with liberal exposition that parts of the internet have become self-aware and are producing bodies, such as his own. He's bits and pieces of the internet that aren't very "socially acceptable". He's a bit of a shy, geeky sort, which is nothing like you'd get if the bottom layer of the internet were to gain sentience (most likely you'd get a serial killing, fursuited pedophile). But that's all just bad writing and acting, and it's not a very big deal. What really got me is that one of the main characters is on the phone with his girlfriend later and explains they can't do whatever they were going to do because he's got the android over. So the woman offers to "bring a friend" in the tone of voice most of us would link to budget pornography. The friend has "whore" written all over her, and the viewer is indeed treated to what can be best described as soft-core pornography (that is too say, non-functional nudity and lecherousness). And I'm just left sitting here, wondering if I'm watching the right show (I even checked the guide).
Robin Goodfellow: considering how subjective this category really is, it's pretty easy to apply the term to "any show that I really liked but got cancelled dammit." In the description is a mention of how the show "may build up a bigger following...than it ever had in its first run," but I wonder if it's more likely a show just had a small but extremely passionate fan base. Or even never had much fan base at all, but simply meets some people's criteria for quality. I'm not sure how quantifiable any of that can be, so this just ends up a list of contributors' personal faves. Not sure where I was going with this, but there it is.
Shay Guy: Hope nobody minds my asking - what happened with Joan Of Arcadia? It says there were demographic problems...
Fast Eddie: It tested well at the higher end, 34+, than at the 18-34 they thought they were shooting at. Why that happened would be WMG territory.
{{Schlitzrüssler}}: Threshold? I assume you're talking about the 2005 SF series. Are you freaking kidding me?? That shows was pure crap, full of cliché characters like Brent Spiner's scientist (and several of them extremely unlikable, like that Dr. Caffrey). Plots you could see coming from as mile away. Although I can see how it would push all the right buttons with American audiences in a post-9-11 world. Threshold was not the only American series in recent years that used "aliens" as allegory for terrorists. They're alien, you can't talk to them because their worldviews are incomprehensible to us, and they want to kill us. Rampant They Are Among Us paranoia. Characters threatening other characters with "We can make you disppear if you don't cooperate" nonsense. Promoting the idea that civil liberties are a dangerous thing of the past, because OMG the aliens are here to kill us all and take our planet! They infect people with diseases and strange mental afflictions, want to poison our water and our food, have weapons of mass destruction etc etc. Therefore if you're the self-appointed defender of mankind and most importantly leading a secret operation and are not answerable to anyone, every action you take is automatically justified.
Honestly, after I sat through the pilot I actually forced myself to watch the rest of the first season, with the vague idea that I might write a review about the series later, in the way that some people are fascinated by car wrecks. If that series had had leaner budget and cheap CGI, maybe people would have praised it less enthusiastically.
''They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1759''
Fast Eddie: :-D I have to agree with the analysis on that. The series had all the casting elements of a good show, which may have prompted its inclusion on the list. The failure is clearly on the shoulders of the writers, on this one. Too "Big Brother" for freshly post 9-11 US? That is way too "Big Brother".
Qit el-Remel: The Pirates of Dark Water sooooo belongs on this list.
Mr P: How about Jericho? With just 30 episodes of ever-increasing awesome, it hardly had the chance to reach the age of mediocrity after which we can all move on with our lives. Though by the end of the psuedo-second series (8 episodes? Really now) the shows focus was on an entirely different situation, it allowed it to remain fresh and interesting, and certainly more dynamic than the average show.
Freezer: Why are Six Feet Under and The Sopranos on this list? Both shows had long, popular runs and were ended by their creators' choice.
AkatsukiDaybreak: Why is South Park here? It's still on the air and it'll keep going until at least a 15th season.
Andrew: Does Doctor Who really belong here? The original series ran for approximately 781 years. Is it really Too Good to Last, or is it just Shoehorning Your Favorite Show Into An Inappropriate Trope?
The re-imagined Battlestar Galactica really doesn't belong here. The only reason the next season is going to be the last is because the writers have reached the end of the long-running story arc. It has told its tale without even the threat of cancellation, and has a spinoff in the works.
KJMackley: I cut all of this because it doesn't fit (to the best of my knowledge) and I think an exception to Too Good to Last isn't a Long Runner or a show with heavy Screwed by the Network and Executive Meddling. An exception would be lasting at least a few years despite those things. Some are just not examples, Kim Possible was so popular the networks relented on the 65 episode rule and Avatar (Despite the whole "Fan Martyr" mentality) was planned for three seasons and lasted three seasons. Screwed by the Network and Executive Meddling are not synonymous with this trope, fans just like to blame someone when their favorite show is canceled. And a lot of these are closer to Hey Is That Still On?
- 24: For all the flack Fox gets, it MASSIVELY subverted its own trope with this show. This troper and many fans were convinced Fox would never stick with a show with such a morally gray hero, characters who died without warning, and a storyline that demanded that you not miss an episode. This troper was convinced it was going to be canceled and go to cable. Fox, however stuck with the show, and slowly but surely mounted a great marketing campaign around the show, and even made the bold move of starting the series in January so it could air straight without interruption (a move no other network would have the balls to make). The result is one of America's greatest series, Emmys and Golden Globes, and a loyal fanbase that even includes John McCain AND Barbra Streisand.
- 30 Rock has been getting a fair bit of lip service from NBC.
- Avatar The Last Airbender was planned to last three twenty-episode seasons. It lasted two twenty episode seasons, and one twenty-one episode season. Also worth noting that it has significantly less Executive Meddling than most Nickelodeon shows of such scale (even though episodes were really freaking expensive to make).
- Babylon 5, and even then, it almost was canceled before its story arc ended (in fact, it did have to curtail its original 5-year arc to 4, just in case it was). Its spin-off Crusade didn't share this luck however, and was canceled half a season into a 5 season arc.
- Less well known is that the show came very close to death after season three due to a paperwork mistake. Said mistake obliterated the network's entire budget for the show, but J. Michael Straczynski was determined that after getting this far he wasn't going to let the show be cancelled for such a stupid reason, and managed to raise the funds on his own.
- Buffy The Vampire Slayer (Fox/WB)
- Chuck (NBC), with the writer's strike cutting the first season short, it's a miracle this gem is still here. Something has to be said for airing right before Heroes.
- Mystery Science Theater 3000 (Comedy Central/SciFi), mostly due to its simple premise (guys watching movies and making fun of them), low production costs, and loyal fanbase. This was in spite of certain execs at Comedy Central (its original station) juggling its time slot after the first couple seasons, rerunning episodes of the very unpolished first season (which the show's makers specifically asked never to be shown again), mocking the fans in interviews, and doing various and sundry things specifically to piss off everybody involved. This, by the way, was one of the flagship programs of this station.
- And just to piss off every fan of the show further, when Comedy Central finally canceled MST 3 K, they gave it a sendoff consisting of self-aggrandizing, history-reversing commentary to the effect that Comedy Central was responsible for MST 3 K's success, where in fact it was the other way around: Comedy Central had a hard time getting into cable systems till MST 3 K fans pushed for it with their local providers, en masse, in order to see their favorite show.
- Oh, and when it went to the SciFi Channel, the execs there told the show to include more sci-fi movies, and eventually a subplot where Pearl Forrester works to become an accredited mad scientist, because they thought the audience would care about that kind of thing. Luckily, their "contributions" didn't impair the show's greatness.
- Heroes (NBC) Largely thanks to the network getting off its duff for once and promoting the hell out of it.
- Shame the second and third seasons weren't as good as the first. Some new episode haters actually think canceling it in its prime would've been a good end.
- The third season is still airing. The first half of Volume Three ("Villains") was very good. Then the show slumped for several episodes. But Volume Four ("Fugitives") is a vast improvement, especially the Bryan Fuller-penned "Cold Snap".
- Shame the second and third seasons weren't as good as the first. Some new episode haters actually think canceling it in its prime would've been a good end.
- Seinfeld. It went 9 seasons and was ended by its creator with a finale in its prime.
- The Shield
- Six Feet Under (HBO) The series told all the weird stories it wanted to tell, tied up all its story threads and finished with a bittersweet finale. We had a chance to see all characters get closure. Some of them died, and the rest of them went on to live their lives, have families of their own and grow old. And then we said goodbye to them.
- The Sopranos
- South Park
- And due to their obscene ratings and the merchandising dollars it brings in to the execs, even gets away with pointing out exactly WHERE a meddle actually happens. Without any subtlety whatsoever.
- St. Elsewhere - This one hung on for six seasons, several Emmys, a Peabody Award, and a lulu of a final episode despite less-than-stellar ratings. A true Miracle Inversion.
- Friday Night Lights, which has always struggled in the ratings, probably due to the concept being a bit hard to wrap your head around (a TV series based on a movie based on a book based on a true story). Things weren't helped by the second season featuring several regrettable plot developments (murder storyline, anyone?) that infuriated the fans with their departure from the show's heartbreakingly realistic depiction of a small town where everyone is obsessed with high school football. However, the show had a lot of fans in the NBC heirarchy who took the bold move of putting the third season on Direc TV before airing it on the network, which along with giving that season only thirteen episodes really helped offset the low viewing numbers. It was then renewed for two more thirteen episode seasons.
- A bit older than most of the examples on this list, The Dick Van Dyke Show was very nearly canceled due to abysmal ratings after its first season, but was saved only because one of the network executives had faith in it. It went on to give us four more years of highly rated comic gold.
- Kim Possible: Because of Disney's 65 episodes rule, the series ended in the third season with The Movie (shown during the very season, somehow...) there Kim and Ron finally hooked up. There was such a fan outcry that the series was brought back for one final season, where Kim and Ron was dating the entire season.
Nightsky: I agree, and I'm trying to pare down the "exceptions" list (hopefully without pissing off too many people). My idea of a good exception is Northern Exposure: quirky dramedy, critically acclaimed, vocal fanbase... sounds like every other TGTL show, right? Hell, it even started as a midseason replacement, so there wasn't even a big launch to give it any buzz. And yet it was a commercial success, and ended up running six seasons.
Seven Seals: Commander in Chief? Really? I've watched it (all of it), and the comparison to The West Wing is both unavoidable and unfavorable (even taking into account that TWW was in its death throes by the time this aired). Ci C goes for more conventional drama rather than WW's heavy political slant, so it might have drawn viewers for whom WW wasn't their cup of tea, but "too good to last" certainly doesn't seem to be the case here, more "too obviously derivative too last".
Subjective trope and all that, and I don't want to kick the people who liked this show in the groin, but I don't think it deserves an entry on this list. Since it's better to seek forgiveness then to ask for permission, I've gone ahead and removed it.
Invader Sin: Is there a place for references to/parodies of this trope? A sketch shown this year at Dragon*Con spoofed this one by describing a show of such high quality and so beloved by fans that it was never even produced. There's a DVD of it, but the disc is simply blank. There are online petitions to draft a creator and a cast for the show (including Patrick Stewart and Felicia Day.)
I have a problem with the Tina Fey quote. 30 Rock isn't on any of these list and I don't think the quote has much relevance to the topic.
Some Sort Of Troper: While Too Good to Last is at least marked as subjective, I think that the nature of the trope makes each example "I really liked this show and it was short lived so I can put it here" or to put it another way "Gushing About Shows That Were Cancelled" or to put it another way prime Sugar Wiki fodder.[shortreturn] Main page should probably stay where it is since it defines a term but it could do better on that front. I think it doesn't do enough to get into that feeling you get when you realise that a show is great but so great because it manages to tap into that little niche of you that makes you different from large viewing figure-forming segments of the population.
Also, Angel exception- went 4 seasons with no sword of damocles over its head, fifth season produced some threats and they managed to produce a finale that gives a show that managed a five year run? I'm sorry but this exception is noted here why?
