This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Umptyscope: I'd say every version of The Devil And Daniel Webster out there fits this trope. The idiot who sold his soul v. Satan — and the idiot never gets any "celestial legal help."
Kizor: Set this aside since it clearly disproves itself and thus needs some work to be about the way LOTR might seem to use this trope but doesn't. At work right now so busy for a bit.
- Lord Of The Rings. The Valar definitely exist, and in The Silmarillion go as far as coming to Middle-Earth in full force to lay the smack down on Melkor, but you wouldn't know it if you'd only read Tolkien's more famous works. By the time of Rings and hobbits they're decidedly absentee landlords, possibly still upset over that whole Numenor incident, and the people of Middle-Earth are left to fend off Sauron by themselves. This is lampshaded in the first movie by Gandalf's heartwarming but vague line about the existence of 'a power for good'.
- Ironic, since The only supernatural powers working against Sauron besides the Elves are the Istari, the wizards, who are all Maiar spirits - including Gandalf. However, only Gandalf and Radagast are left to actually work for good after Saruman's Face–Heel Turn. And they aren't getting much help from their Valar superiors...
- Untrue on several fronts. It is implied in the Council of Elrond that Iluvatar (God) was the One who manipulated events to have the Ring fall into Hobbit hands at just the right time. In addition, it's stated in the Simarilion that the last time the Valar came to Middle Earth to deal with the Dark Lord (Morgoth, in that case), half the land was destroyed in the process. Since Sauron is apparently a fallen Maiar, sending five Maiar spirits (the wizards) constitutes an active effort to contain and defeat him, I think.
Radioactive Zombie - Hrrph. I think "Doo M" is the proper spelling, but meh.
Roland: The Warhammer40k example isn't quite accurate. The Deceiver is NOT ever coherently spelled out to be the Laughing God; the only thing they have in common is both convinced C'tan to eat other C'tan's souls. Also: the Emperor may or may not be a true god, but he certainly does strive to assist the Imperium, if often in subtle ways.
Peteman: I put that post up. I said that that Deceiver/C'tan connection because I read it on the other wiki, and the God-Emperor of Mankind is largely out of commission.
Roland: The Deceiver/C'tan thing is due to a single common element. One of the Harlequin plays involves Cegorach tricking a C'tan into devouring other C'tan, thinking it was attacking Cegorach himself. This C'tan (probably the Outsider) then went completely insane out of guilt or torment. The Deceiver himself is also described as tricking the C'tan into fighting each other and then devouring the weakened C'tan. That's all they have in common- along with a Trickster nature.
Also: the God-Emperor of Mankind may not work so much in overt miracles, but he does still have an impact. He manipulates events, faith in him can cause miracles, and he may have a hand in the manifestation of Living Saints. He is, however, less overtly acting than the Chaos Gods, who throw supernatural events and reality-shattering stuff around like it was going out of style.
Austin: I rewrote the Buffy example for various reasons. For one thing, Jasmine was built up to be similar to the Powers and Partners, but she was never stated to be part of The Powers That Be. Also, she was less a knight templar and concerned with doing good than she was a vain, selfish creature who only wanted to be loved. In addition, given that it's a Joss Whedon show it's probably a WYSIWYG case with The Powers, but the heroes never get to confront the Powers directly, which never find out exactly why they do things the way they do. Whether they simply have a different viewpoint, whether they really are just apathetic, or if they have another reason for not interferring much. I also don't think it's accurate to say that The First Evil was very active, because unlike Wolfram & Hart, we're never told just what he does in his spare time, or if he's responsible for any atrocities. His only confirmed actions are trying to kill Angel and attempting to destroy the Slayer line and rule over the world.
Austin: I removed the Diablo example. For one thing, the Light seems to just be the powers of the angels, not really any independant force, and basically the same as attributing darkness to the demons. For another, God and the devil aren't usually equal, but the Prime Evils do have "good" equivilants in the Angiris Council, the archangels who rule the High Heavens. Lastly, there's not an omnipotent god ruling the universe, but the setting does have gods, such as the amazon pantheon and the necromancer's Trag'Oul, who I don't think is stated to be a god, but is very god like in his powers and perception.
