This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Mctr: Is a "everybody hates The Scrappy, while the writers absolutely love him" EVERYBODY; but in the examples are too many BrokerBase when the Wesley is nothing like that because EVERYBODY HATES HIM (except the writer), if the character have fans shouldn't be here
Ununnilium: Very nice example in Elmo. Especially "Elmo's World", oy.
Lale: So what's it called when a writer takes a particular personal dislike to a character and treats them like viewers wish they would treat The Wesley? I remember there's a pararaph around here somewhere that one of the Digimon dubbers did that to Daisuke.
Tanto: That would be Unpopular Popular Character.
Lale: Just read that. But that case doesn't seem to be the work of a sadistic Writer on Board as much an artistic technique that works.
Ununnilium: It can be either.
Sikon: Took out Jar Jar Binks because he's more of The Scrappy than The Wesley: the creators did cater to the negative reaction and write him out of AOTC almost entirely, and in ROTS, he only has a very brief appearance in the end.
zinfandel: I'd just like to compliment whoever added the Dick Tracy entry. I find this hilarious and fascinating, and wish there were more examples like this.
That Other 1 Dude: Whoever put up Sasuke neglected two things:
- Whether Sasuke is or isn't the author favorite is up in the air
- Sasuke was actually first in the last character poll
Willy Four Eyes: Sasuke? A Wesley? The vast majority of SasuNaru slashers beg to differ. (EDIT NO JUTSU: And an Unknown Troper put it back there again!)
Dan: In my experience, anyone who isn't a Yaoi Fangirl or in middle school loathes Sasuke. ;p
Seth: By no means, Sauske is a Draco in Leather Pants or and Ensemble Dark Horse. He wasn't meant to be as popular as he was but when the fangirls spoke in unison the writer made some tweaks.
Too popular to be a Wesley and the author prefers Sakura (Damn you, my Naruta ship will not die)
Rogue 7: this came up in a Naruto conversation I'm having over at Giant In the Playground. No one in the (admittedly short) thread I'm talking about likes Sasuke, but with all the recent manga chapters focusing on him, it's hard for us to rationalize that Kishimoto doesn't love the guy. Not That There's Anything Wrong with That, except that in this case, it detracts from the quality of the story. He's a very polarizing figure, as I've seen a lot of fans who cited him as their reasons for not liking the show.
That Other 1 Dude: Looking at one given board is not an indicator of the fanbase in general, especcially when people that dislike a character are much more vocal and tend to attract each other (for example, the Dominic Deegan topic on that board is made almost entirely of people that dislike it and started the "Lord Dominus" meme). At least in Japan he is very popular, and in fact a recent poll has him ranked as the most popular. Anyway, we already have an article about characters that take up to much focus of the plot and widely devisive characters so listening it here would also be redundant. And yes, I do know you really hate Sasuke.
Charred Knight: Given recent manga chapters I put him back with the point that his both the Ensemble Dark Horse and The Wesley. The fandom (in America at least) is starting to get annoyed at how much screen time he gets, and I haven't seen a manga discussion about a chapter without some bitching about how the series should be renamed Sasuke. From what I see its a Gender Divide, with females loving him, and males hating him. On second thought, Sasuke's just too fucking stupid to be a Wesley. From what I have seen Kishimoto tried to create Darth Vader, and did it even worse than George Lucas did. At least Palpatine appears good, Madara admitted that he was kicked out of his own clan. I moved him to The Scrappy
That Other 1 Dude: Why the hell does it say all of Team 7. It's basically saying they shouldn't be the focus of the story even though they're the main characters.
Rogue 7: Red Viking, your turn of phrase describing Sasuke was incredibly apt, so much so that I blatantly copied it and posted it in Your Mileage May Vary, as it was much better than my own contribution.
That Other 1 Dude: OK, I cut down that ridiculously detailed rant/description for Red Viking's much more accurate and to the point one. (for the record, I do consider myself in the middle ground when it comes to Sasuke)
Red Viking: No prob, Rogue7. And to whomever recently edited it, "gar" is a purposely misspelled version of "gay" that indicates, and I'm quoting from Urban Dictionary: "A term used towards male characters and individuals who are so overwhelmingly manly that your own masculinity is absolutely *buried*, leaving you naught but a whimpering, swooning girl-child before them."
Willy Four Eyes: Moved Marissa (The OC) over to The Scrappy, because the entry made it sound more like that. She did get McLeaned at the end, after all. If she were a Wesley, she would have lived through to the end of the series.
Ry Senkari: Gwen Tennyson is NOT a Wesley.
Lale: I swear, I didn't read that (checked the page too late), but since I'm here now, why do you think so? She's a spotlight-stealing, whiney, Mary Sue-borderline Jerkass who the writers treat give more and more positive attention to while giving more and more negative attention to Ben. I started keeping track of that show in the beginning because it seemed more original, but the I noticed the more and more emphasis was given to Gwen, the less originality there was to the story... and the worse Ben was treated. the writers don't even know how bad it is; the Aesop at the end of the ep with the return of Ghostfreak was sincerely directed at Ben even though Gwen was the one who clearly wasn't acing like a team player, and even though Ben had just saved her life. Who is she to tell him he needs them after that? I think the writers need to re-check their show's title.
Ry Senkari: Gwen's not a Jerkass, the only person she really treats like crap is Ben, and that's understandable considering that he's got control of an unstable alien weapon, and if he does too many stupid things he risks destroying the world. Gwen's function is to act as a balance to Ben's childishness so that it's a bit more believable that he's going around saving the world. She's the Yin to his Yang, and it's necessary for her to be that way. In addition, she has more fans among the fanbase than any Wesley I know. Just because a few outspoken fans have a personal vendetta against her, it doesn't make her a Wesley. Wesleys have to be pretty much universally loathed. I don't want to get into a huge Edit War and I'm willing to compromise as long as some notes are made about her popularity, but for God's sake, I don't want to see her lumped in with Lana and Wesley Crusher without a Justifying Edit or two.
SpiriTsunami: Gwen might have been one in Ben10; I don't know because the show's run was almost over by the time I got involved with it; but if she was, Ben 10 Alien Force definitely has her Rescued from the Scrappy Heap.
Obscured: Example in literature, although I'm sure no-one will agree with me: Lestat in the Vampire Chronicles. Louis was by far the more interesting character in Interview With The Vampire and I was completely unable to work out why Rice thought it was a good idea to write a sequel from Lestat's point of view (now I do know why, she's clearly crazy). He's not awesome, he's just a poncey self-important tosser. I couldn't get through the third book and, judging by what some people have said about the rest of them and the continued inexplicable focus on the dull moron Lestat, I'm glad I stopped there. Still love Interview though.
That Other 1 Dude: Contested:
- Steve Urkel from Family Matters isn't just The Urkel — he's also The Wesley.
He was a humongous Ensemble Dark Horse. The writers didn't love him, they were Pandering to the Base, and he became less popular latter (and I'm not even sure about that). Really, what the hell else does anyone even remember from that show?
The link to Wil Wheaton's blog doesn't link to the part where he talks about why Wesley was hated, and I was unable to find it myself. I think someone should either find it and change the link or put some reasons as to why people hate him. If he's the definitive example of the trope, people need to know why.
Willy Four Eyes: It's on there
, under "Behind the Scenes" memories, but you have to page down several times to find it.
On an unrelated note, transferred Bela from Supernatural from The Wesley heap to The Scrappy heap. I'm not entirely sure whether she qualifies for this trope, too, but the description used for her example fits better on the other page. So Yeah...
Malimar: Re: Dylan Hunt from Andromeda - Isn't he the main character? Is it really possible for the main character to be a Wesley? Or is a protagonist Scrappy a Wesley by definition? Is he not the main character but I get the impression that he is the main character precisely because he's the Wesley?
Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan: Now, this is not first-hand, but my impression is this:
In the beginning, Andromeda was an Ensemble Show. Dylan Hunt was neither The Scrappy nor The Wesley then.
But in the middle of season 2, the fella who played Dylan Hunt became producer of the series, and the original creator/writer left because the actor didn't get the scripts. Now, since the fella playing Dylan Hunt was writing his own character, it's only natural for him to play that character up in time and virtue - which would not necessarily make the show more watchable. And the fella wasn't as subtle as the original writer.
Eventually, if I understand correctly, Dylan became the best at everything in his crew, got most of the screentime, became The Chosen One, and picked up something resembling an Omniscient Morality License. This would make him at least look like The Wesley, especially if you originally watched because of another member of the ensemble.
MrOnimusha: Who added the section about Triple H being the Wesley? And when was the last time they watched wrestling? Trips, though he went through a period of Wesleydom, has long long long long since left it, to the point where he's not even the biggest attraction on his show - that would be the Edge/Vickie Guerrero/Undertaker saga that's been going on for a good while now - and there are others who run him close, like Ken Kennedy, Jeff Hardy and Umaga. So, remind me...how's he a Wesley?
Chris X: Now that we have a picture, quick, think of a line to define the Wesleyism.
The Nifty: Pulled this:
- Extremely subjective Firefly example: River Tam. The fandom is divided: it seems roughly 2/3s love her to pieces, while 1/3 hates her with a passion, give or take some fraction. For those that love her, she is perhaps something of a Westley. But for those that hate her, she's not quite a Mary Sue or Anti-Sue, because she pisses off most of the other characters almost as much as she deserves, but that's about the extent of her good qualities. She causes at least half of the problems on the ship, and is similar to but worse than the original Wesley in at least one area: the only thing worse than one character that can and does solve every problem is a character who could solve every problem, but doesn't because she's insane. With that in mind, the gradually increasing focus on her, culminating in the very River-centric movie, places her squarely in Wesley territory for many.
It seems to use The Westley trope different than how it's defined: the fans who like her think she's the The Westley? What?
- Malimar: Looks like it's going on the bit about "characters who are (technically) Canon Sue's and Stu's but were well enough written to be appreciated by most of the fandom". Also "purely subjective and utterly debatable". Also The Westley trope in general doesn't make any sense. Still, is it policy to simply pull the whole example instead of just fixing the bit you think is wrong?
- The Nifty: I'd fix it and pull it back in if I was sure of what point the original author was trying to make - it looks to me like they misinterpreted the meaning of the trope though, so it doesn't really fit.
- Malimar: Looks like it's going on the bit about "characters who are (technically) Canon Sue's and Stu's but were well enough written to be appreciated by most of the fandom". Also "purely subjective and utterly debatable". Also The Westley trope in general doesn't make any sense. Still, is it policy to simply pull the whole example instead of just fixing the bit you think is wrong?
Dausuul: Removed Drizzt Do'Urden. Anybody with as many fanboys as Drizzt can't possibly be The Wesley, whose defining trait is that the author loves him but the fanbase hates him. Drizzt is just a straight-up Marty Stu. (Elminster, on the other hand, is a Wesley par excellence...)
Freezer: Restored entry on Jessica Jones. It would help, if someone's going to delete an entry, if they'd provide a reason why. Tends to help avoid Edit Wars
Peteman: Would Rose Tyler of Doctor Who fame be considered for this (or at least a Your Mileage May Vary variant)? I cannot stand her and there's more than a few people on this website who feel similarly. I think she follows the Anthony example from For Better Or For Worse, in that she's a annoying-to-mediocre-to-okay character on her own, but her Informed Ability of being best companion ever grates on people's nerves.
Um... I don't get the Asohka bit. Amongst other things, a Wesley is a Scrappy. It's a Scrappy that the authors favouritise.
theorc: As I said on the Scrappy page, if we judge Who examples by whether people hate them, pretty much every companion will make the list. I'm of the opinion that not only must it be a hated character, it's got to be one almost no one likes. There's a few Who examples, but not as many as the Unpleasable Fanbase would have you believe.
Orihime: Pulled Thirteen out, since the entry bit is less about her Wesleyness and more Complaining About Characters You Don't Like.
Willy Four Eyes: Got rid of Nikki and Paulo from Lost, since they're simply The Scrappy, and it doesn't look like there was much favoritism on their part.
- In the third season of Lost, the characters Nikki and Paulo were introduced in order to put a bit more emphasis on some of the background characters that also survived the crash. The directors apparently had big plans for these two characters, but shortly after their first appearance the fan community cried out in protest. It didn't take long for the directors to catch on, though: in the episode "Exposé," the characters' backstories were shown and they were killed off by being buried alive. This is especially odd for two reasons:
- Fans had been complaining about the lack of plots with the unseen survivors (canon explicitly says there are forty-some, but only about half that many have ever been in center stage), only to complain about how the writers expected them to believe Nikki and Paulo had been there the entire time, unseen.
- And the writers cut out the subplot introducing them, where Claire finds them having sex in Jack's tent...and instead introduced them by having Nikki make an idiot of herself by yelling at Hurley for not telling them Jack, Kate and Sawyer had been captured...when Hurley had just returned.
Removed Adric for pretty much the same reasons.
KHL: Removed Ana-Lucia for the same reason. She's got the fan-hate part down, but there's no evidence she was shoehorned into any more plots than usual, and in fact the writers promptly killed her off near the end of the season.
- Adric in Doctor Who. After two seasons, he was Killed Off for Real in Earthshock. The DVD release of the story features an animated bonus "Episode 5" which shows Adric actually surviving his nosedive onto prehistoric Earth in a massive 26th Century freighter... only to get eaten by a dinosaur, to which a nearby severed Cyberman head impassively remarks, "Excellent."
- And then he's killed again in a vision in the episode "Time-Flight"... and his name is the last word the Fifth Doctor says before regenerating in the much more quick-tempered Sixth. After all, who wouldn't be pissed if their last thought before dying was about Adric?
- Adric is called on it when he acts the arrogant snotnosed kid however, and frequently gets into disagreements with the Doctor.
Cliché: May I suggest Creator's Pet as a more general alternate name?
RAF sounds good
SpiriTsunami: I can agree with that, and I've been railing against this wiki's serial renaming policies. Carry on.
RAFI know a lot of people in the IWC love Bret Hart. As a matter of fact I was once permanently band on wikipedia because me and a friend added a link to an interview with Jacques Rougeau that pointed out some of harts problems http://www.warned.net/JacquesRougeauTalksToWWI.html
so if you have a problem please discourse it with me and not delete it
McJeff Hmm. If you actually got banned from Wikipedia, shouldn't that have tipped you off that you're wrong? The problem here is that you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Your claims that Bret Hart was "never over" don't really mesh with reality. Sort of like when the fans chose Bret over Lex Luger. Just like your claim that Vince wasn't running WWF when Doink was turned face. Vince has been running WWF ever since he bought it from his father. There is nothing to discuss here. You're just wrong.
RAF the ban from wikipedia had more to do with a guy with a vandeta against me bad mothing me to the editers and I was reinstated in short order and received an appoligy from the guys who had band me. But donen't you think that A guy like Jacques Rougeau who was there and knew Hart for several years would be a better judge then some guy who had only read about it in third hand accounts. I never said bret was not over just that his reception was luck warm compaired to people like Hogan and Flair to begien with, and by 96 he was just plain geting booed. I have heard the louder pop story before but I have also heard bret was given the tital becouse he was less musculer and they were in the midle of the steroid trial. Vince Mcmohn took a leave of absents from running the company in late 93 and 94 to focouse on the trial and left the company in the controle of one of his subordinants (Paterson I think). Sounds like alot of the IWC you have been Drinking the Kool-Aid for Hart. by the wau when did you begen watching wrestling.
McJeff "You heard". "You were there". "You're drinking Kool Aid." You put forward no actual arguments. I will continue to revert.
RAF I answered all that you said, and to tell you the truth I can not tell the difference between the pops Hart and Luger got. I did not say I was there I said Jacques Rougeau what they were talking about happend after Hart was resuced from the scrappy heap. you did not answer anthing I brought up in the previous post
McJeff You can't even keep your story straight. You were permabanned from wikipedia oh wait you were unblocked instantly and apologized to. And Jacques Rougeau's words should be taken as the gospel truth (even though they don't even back up what you say) because he's a wrestler and would "know".
RAF A Permanent band can be overturned if the editer relised he made a mistake which is what happemd after I got a chance to talk with him. By the way I ment to put don Ric Flair above not Jacques Rougeau, I have been arguing about the montrial screjob for 11 years and do not want to do that here but I do think someone that actualy know hart and worked with him for years like Rougeau would know him better then someone like David meltzer.. and if you include hogan you must include hart considering they were champs at the same time and Hogan as champ did more money for wcw alowing them to move into the number one spot. you puting him in there and not hart makes you sound like Scott Keith
Let me ask you a quesrtion where you actualy watching wrestling in 96-97 your intry on doink indicates that you werent considering the fact he left in early 95 and the slammy thing was just somone (pobobly Brawler) screwing around. I hold no ill will to you if you say no it seems most smarks did not
RAF I think that being bood so much that they are forst to turn some one Heel counts as being a wesley, even though he was eventualy rescued from. Doink was never a prominent charicter and most of you stuff about him countradict what you would find if you looked into it. I was not watching wcw at the time so I am not going to edit your stuff about it however all indicaters point to Hogan being more populare then Hart at the time. I want to have an inteligent conversation with you mcjeff but that is imposibal if you just call me names.
HeartBurn Kid: If "a lot of people in the IWC love Bret Hart", as you yourself said, he is by definition not The Wesley.
RAF Bret Hart definetly fits the definition, he has a large following now but in the mid-90's that was not the case a lot of smarks disliked him. Also you called Hart an Ensemble Dark Horse which is is kind of rediculeas considering he had been pushed for years and groomed for a spot at the top, fans just dident take to him as champ. As for why he was given the tital instead of Luger (who as you pointed out was also a wesley) I have heared both the louder pop and the steroid story and I am enclide to believe the later {{becouse there is not a big diferance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q5ZhteH9-A}}. I do not hate canadian wrestlers I am a fan of several, however I do agree with Flair that Hart was and overrated, and the WWF went down hill when he became Champion, Hart could have good matches when he wanted to, like his 5 star summerslam cage match against Owen, however the fact is the fans rejected Hart.
Bring The Noise: RAF, you are wrong. For the love of God, just give it up. And for the record, "Five Moves of Doom" was first used by Scott Keith, one of Bret's biggest FANS, in recognition that Bret used the same sequence of moves to finish most of his matches, as if it was one long finisher.
HeartBurn Kid: "Bret Hart definetly fits the definition, he has a large following now but in the mid-90's that was not the case a lot of smarks disliked him." Really? The same Bret Hart that declared the best wrestler of 1994 by the rec.sport.pro-wrestling newsgroup, which pretty much was the IWC in those days? And also managed to snag 1993 Feud of the Year and 1997 Match of the Year from the Wrestling Observer? That Bret Hart was hated by the smarks? And as for your feelings on Canadian wrestlers, this is the second time I've gotten into an Edit War with you over you slagging off a Canadian wrestler and pretending that it's the general fan consensus. The first was when you continually inserted a reference to Chris Jericho into X-Pac Heat and claimed that it was actually called Jericho Heat before the Evil Canadian Internet Fan Cabal changed it.
RAF: 1993 was before Hart degenerated into the Wesley and 1997 was after he was Rescued from the Scrappy Heap. While Hart was recognized as having good psychiatry he was also criticized for his dullness and lack of fan support. He did have fans in that period but so did every other wrestling Wesley on the list after all Your Mileage May Vary. Also Keith might be one of Harts biggest marks now when he started he treated him just like he treats every one now. It seems we hung out in different areas of the IWC because I knew several other people as what we would call him a Wesley, I will modify the entry but I think it should stay. By the way I am a Jericho fan and was just relay what was a very long and heated discussion where I first herd the term x-pac heat
HeartBurn Kid: Ummm... Here's a list of all of Scott Keith's 4+ star matches. Go through the '90s and see how many times "Bret Hart" appears on the list. The dude was always a mark for Bret Hart, and Bret was always an IWC favorite. And as for the "different areas of the IWC" bit... like I said before, RSPW pretty much was the IWC in those days, as that was before the web exploded, so I have no idea where else you could have been hanging out. You can cite Ric Flair all you want, but his opinion really doesn't mean a whole lot here. Sure, Bret held the title during a down time... and so did Shawn Michaels, and so did Diesel (hell, Diesel was champ during the worst part of it), and nobody's trying to add them to this page because it'd be a bad fit. When somebody actually has a sizable following (outside of the writing room, of course), they're not really The Wesley, no matter how much you dislike them. Also, hate to tell you this, but your spelling and grammar are not helping you make a case here. It's hard for me to believe that you actually know what the IWC was like in the mid-90s when you write like a 10-year-old.
RAF While I might not have become a member of the IWC until late 97, early 98 it was recent enough to look back a few years, and see what other peoples opinion of Hart was, also the mid 90’s was when the explosion was and there were several other sites back then. What Flair said was not just his opinion; he was talking about how the attendants dropped off when Hart became champion. The worst time for the WWF was between Wrestlemania X and Wrestlemania XII during which Hart held the title approximately 50% of the time and Diesel the other 50%. When HBK won the title the company started to recover and the fact that Diesel had been an Ensemble Dark Horse that went on to revolutionize WCW (before screwing it up) prevents him from becoming a Wesley at this point in time. However Hart was so unpopular by the end the fans and not the writers turned him heel. I do not dislike Hart even if I find a few of his actions rather questionable, like trying to contact Owen on a Prime-Time TV special after he died. Even if you are a Hart fan you have to admit most fans were booing him by 97 and if that is not a Wesley then what is?
McJeff That's not a Wesley. Wesleys don't get their characters changed due to negative fan reaction, that's what makes them Wesleys as opposed to Scrappys in the first place. Anyway, he was way over. I don't know what universe you live in where Bret was getting these lukewarm reactions and killing business, but all the 5 star matches and fan-voted awards he received steadily through the 90s is enough to disprove your claims.
Willy Four Eyes: How does that specifically make it Bret's fault that attendance was falling off?
HeartBurn Kid: Four things: 1, if we include every face that ever got a heel turn due to their character becoming stale, then the wrestling section is going to eat this page whole. That's a pretty common ailment in wrestling. 2, nice job implying that I'm arguing this with you because I'm a Bret fan . Got news for you: not only did I take Vince's side on the Screwjob, but I'm the guy who put Bret on Small Name, Big Ego. I'm more than capable of seeing Bret's flaws here, but I really don't think too many people saw him as The Wesley in the '90s, especially when there were so many better targets — Lex Luger for obvious reasons, and Shawn Michaels, who got a metric buttload of "Shawn Is Gay" chants during his face run. 3, I will agree that Bret was getting booed by 97 — because he was feuding with Steve Austin. WWF was still booking the old-school babyface-vs-heel feud with them, but the fans had pretty much turned Austin into Draco in Leather Pants by that point. 4, you now have 4 people telling you you're wrong, and not one person has agreed with you. It's time to drop it.
Orihime: Removed Suzaku. There's no proof of him being a real Wesley, and I'm afraid it's yet another Lelouch fan who can't stand the idea of anybody opposing "Lulu Baby". Somebody can re-write it and at least attempt to keep some neutrality?}
Oh, great. Removed that bullshit AGAIN. Sweet Jesus, Suzaku is NOT the Wesley, he has paid damn HARD for his mistakes (lost his girlfriend, almost lost his sanity, was the pawn of everyone, got the shit beaten outta him by Kallen, was the one who destroyed a good part of Tokyo against his will) and even got Fate Worse than Death courtesy of Lelouch himself. HOW DOES THAT EQUAL TO HIM BEING THE WESLEY, DAMMIT?!
FYI: the Wesley: character favored by the writers despite the fanbase. NOT a free card for dumbass character bashing. Take your whining to The Scrappy and not here.
Seikai: Good god, you sure are taking this whole thing personally. Yeesh, you call me a Lelouch fan (which I'm not - in fact, I don't really like him) when you're pretty much acting like a rabid fangirl yourself. Look, all the points you listed are more of what makes a main character (which Suzaku was NOT supposed to be). Lost his girlfriend? Sounds familiar for a typical story hero. Almost lost his sanity? Yep yep. Got a bunch of people sacrificed for his sake? Yeah. Got beat up by a Tsundere? Uh huh. And you can't really say he was the pawn of everyone - let's face it, he used them as they used him. He is well known for being a [[Chronic Backstabbing Disorder Chronic Backstabber]]. Oh, and becoming the awesome rebellion leader whom everyone adores, despite what Lelouch says, sounds more like being Cursed with Awesome than a Fate Worse than Death. And besides, this trope says it's SUBJECTIVE. If this example can't even be put up because someone likes Suzaku, then I suggest we also take down Sasuke.
Orihime: Maybe that's because I've been treated badly at the fandom for, well, liking Lelouch yet not worshipping him *and* defending characters who oppose him, like Suzaku, Viletta, Kallen and Ohgi. And because, yes, your "reasons" are at least very feeble.
- The Tsundere who beat him up? It wasn't a merely Tsundere tantrum. Kallen went there with dire intentions to punch the fuck outta him for his enormous fuck-up of trying to drug her. Later, she had intention and instructions (from Lelouch himself) to KILL him, and later she again beat him up becase, hey he was Lelouch's co-conspirator and she had to fight him if she wanted her country to be free. FAR from "mere Tsundere slaps", it was full on "WHAT THE GODDAMNED FUCK ARE YOU ON YOU ASSHOLE?!" from Kallen.
- Lost his girlfriend. It was because of Lelouch's horrid timing, yes, but he let the consequences cloud his judgement and caused him LOTS of trouble and pain. The loss of Euphie proved that Love Makes You Evil, causing his fall from Knight in Shining Armor to Knight Templar. Had she lived, things would've been VERY different.
- Chronic Backstabbing Disorder? His rivals enemies used that against him. They knew he'd do that and used it to their advantage. Not exactly being unpunished. Bismark was pretty much ready to face him with this in mind. And enemies that "Lelouch didn't defeat"? That certainly doesn't include Charles and Schneizel, whom Lelouch defeated with his Geass and his superior thinking.
- Fate Worse than Death? I wasn't referring to the Geass. I was talking about the Grand Finale, where Suzaku is the one who wants real bad to atone through death, yet is pretty much cursed to live forever... and under the mask of Zero, since he's believed dead and pretty much disgraced. That was the true Fate Worse than Death Lelouch gave him. Talk about a punishment for someone who's spent several years wishing that he was dead.
- The Wesley being a subjective trope? Subjective trope =/= being able to use it to your absolute liking and whim. Your "reasons" belong better in The Scrappy or The Darth Wiki rather than The Wesley, since there is NOT definitive word on the writers being enamoured with him to that point.
Suzaku paid just as much as Lelouch and other characters, no matter what you WANT to believe. You accuse me of taking this too personally, but then you go and put the whole stuff up AGAIN while offering practically NO reason other than "Suzaku is The Wesley because *I* say so and how DARE you guys think otherwise". Less about him bring a *true* Wesley and more about plain old Scrappyness and character bashing, in my very honest opinion. So removing it again, until you guys can offer REAL reasons as to why he's The Wesley aside of your Suzaku hate.
Charred Knight: Subjective means that "not everyone agrees" not "put any example here" if you honestly believe that Taniguchi and Okouchi preferred Suzaku to all other characters than you are out of your mind. They obviously preferred Lelouch to all other characters which is why Lelouch can do no wrong, and if he makes a mistake he quickly makes it better in 5 minutes. Here's the thing, take your entry and MOVE IT TO THE SCRAPPY WHERE IT BELONGS! Also Suzaku was obviously supposed to be a main character he was The Rival who was always getting in the way of Lelouch's plans whose life is ruined by Lelouch.
The Tambourine Man: I don't see how Suzaku would really qualify. He does end up facing consequences for his actions, he doesn't come off as being overly pampered or anything, and even he agrees he deseerves what happens to him. How is he the Wesley?
Heroes: Although it's true that Maya is a Wesley, she is not the only character with her own theme. Composers Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman said that each character has his/her own theme.
Whiske: I'm not sure Maya is a Wesley. A Scrappy to be sure, but her main storyline occurred in episodes filmed so there would be something to air before the writer's strike. There wasn't a whole lot of time to adjust to negative fan reaction. And she was shoved off-screen for most of her second season, lightly retooled (speaking only English, becoming kind of skanky, and crying way less, to the relief of everyone watching) and written off with little ceremony. As widely disliked as she was, there was no indication that she was preferred by the writers, or at all "pushed" on viewers after her initial introduction, despite how much fans hated her. Hell, wasn't the season she was introduced the one Tim Kring apologized for? As for her living on while other, more interesting characters died, that's true. But she lives on off-screen, never to be spoken of again. Like most off-screen Heroes characters, actually. Elle may have died but at least she got a proper send off.
Heartbreak: Hulk Hogan was still varry popular in 1994 and WCW ratings byrates and boxoffice jumped signifigently when he joined passing the WWF for the first time (off course the fact that Bret Hart was champ overthere probobly had something to do with it), true he did have a resurgence when he turned heel but he was still verry popular as a face, that was one of the things wich made the heel turn so shocking.
HeartBurn Kid: 1, give the Bret Hart thing a rest already. Nobody agrees, and sockpuppeting isn't going to change that. 2, Hulk Hogan was really, really unpopular among the WCW faithful — some hated him for being from up north, some hated him for displacing Sting, and some hated him just for being a Boring Invincible Hero, but it seems like pretty much everybody who watched WCW hated him for different reasons. He may have led to an initial surge of interest when he first came in, but pretty much everybody who tuned in to see his debut ended up tuning out. Until the nWo thing, anyway, and that's exactly why it was necessary. Remember, prior to the nWo thing, Hulk had been on a 2 month vacation; this wasn't because of an injury or because of movie filming or anything, this was because the fans were honestly sick of him, and the WCW brass were hoping absence would make the heart grow fonder.
RAF: Listen Heart Burn I am not Heartbreak you are parnoid, there is a reason why I stoped arguing with you. I was not watching WCW at the time but judging from the numbers and the crowed reaction in clips Hogan was still pretty popular even if some smarks did not like him. Aso if being taken off camera just becouse fans were sick of you counts then Bret Harts 7 month vacation should definetly count.
HeartBurn Kid: Hmmm... yeah, he just holds all the same opinions and has the same atrocious spelling and grammar as you. Yeah, not a sock puppet at all.
RAF: Well about hafe the people on discussion pages have atrocious spelling and grammar this place dose not have a vary formal atmospher. How do we hold the same opinions the only thing in common that I see is that we both disagree with you about wether a wrestler belongs here. If I was going to use a puppet dont you think I would use it to ferther my own argument instead of starting a new unrelated one.
Willy Four Eyes: But "Hartbreak" did. Having "him" say "and I agree with RAF" and reiterating your very same points is highly suspicious.
Heartbreak: I am not RAF. How did this become debating wether or not I am a sock. The point of this discussion was supposed to be about Hogans popularity in WCW which was still pretty high when he was there in the mid-90's even if some of the things they did were in retrospect kind of stupid like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MewmqIedokE, he was still well loved. Even if some smarks disagre the number of cheers far outwayed the boos.
HeartBurn Kid: Funny how you define Hogan's status by crowd pops, but ignore the fact that Bret had plenty of fans popping for him too during his championship reign... anyway, crowd pops don't necessarily mean anything. Keep in mind, the crowd are paying customers; they wouldn't be there if they didn't like the current product. Pay-Per-View buyrates are a far better indicator, and they show a general downward trend until Bash at the Beach 1996, when the nWo formed. I don't have data to back this up, but I'm pretty sure TV ratings weren't doing so hot, either.
RAF: compare the buyrates for WCW during Hogan's run to the year before it you will see that they are higher even befor he turned heel, kind of the reverse of Hart in the wwf where the buyrates dident pick up to hogan levals until after he left http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfppvbr.htm. While I was not watching WCW at the time a lot of people were, it seemes the only people who did not like him at the time were a few smarks in what would come to be known as the IWC who arw pretty much the definition of Unpleasable Fanbase that believe It'sPopularNowItSucks. I find it kind of funny that people like you clame the guy who made the unpopular company become more popular was a wesley but guy who made the popular company less popular was not
HeartBurn Kid: Number one, nobody's denying Hulk Hogan created an initial surge of interest, as any big name signing should. But it didn't last. Hogan's WCW PPV debut was BATB '94. He turned heel at BATB '96. Please, go look at the freaking buyrates from that period. Graph them. Look at the line, where it trends. Even the people Hulk brought in gradually ceased to care about him. As for "people like me"... what are you trying to imply there? I really don't have anything special for Bret Hart. He's a bitter, broken man who has an inflated sense of his own importance, and I solidly take Vince's side in the whole screwjob affair. But to sit here and claim that he was somehow overpushed, and not liked by the fans, is ridiculous. The whole WWF was failing at that point; they had gone off the deep end into cartoony excess, and nobody was buying any of it. This was the era of Adam Bomb, of Doink the Clown, of Rocky Maivia and The Sultan. Unlike in WCW, where all roads led to Hogan, nobody was dominating the WWE's storylines at that point (hell, Bret wasn't even a dominant champ; Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Sid, Undertaker, and even Bob Backlund had turns with the belt, as the WWF was basically throwing everything they had at the wall, desperately hoping something would eventually stick).
RAF: I am not denying that there was some fall off in the two years between Hogan entering WCW and when he turned heel however if you compare the PPV buyrates when Hogan was in WCW to those in 1993 you will see that with one exception they were always higher (granted that probably has a lot to do with them pushing Vader as champion). When I say people like you I am referring to the type of IWC member that I often come across that seem to believe that wrestling was destroyed by Vince Mc Mahon and Hulk Hogan in the 80’s and now attack anyone who becomes popular as a no talented and unlikable figure who is using politics to hold back there favorite. Just look at how quickly they turned on John Cena after he got over and became champion, Edge and Eddie Guerraro initially suffered similar problems but they subsided when there popularity did. I will admit that I might be a bit biased against Bret Hart, back when I was still a mark I was a big Owen Hart fan and my sister liked Bob Backland. However during the time period we were talking about the WWF had two dominant champions Hart and Diesel, things fell under one and stayed bad under the other.
HeartBurn Kid: I'm sorry, saying you're "a bit" biased against Bret Hart is like saying Andre the Giant is "a bit" tall. You seem to have written me off as a bitter IWC douchebag simply because I don't share your unpopular opinions on Bret Hart and Chris Jericho. Seriously, now. I don't blame Vince and Hogan for killing wrestling, I was a huge Hogan mark when I was a kid, but there is no denying that his ego was completely out of control during his initial WCW run, and the fans definitely noticed. Well, the ones who didn't already hate him for not being Sting or Flair, anyway. By the time the Dungeon of Doom started, even the fans Hogan brought with him really weren't too keen on him anymore. And I love Edge, always have (except I thought he was a bit bland in his last face run, but he is an absolutely magnificent heel. He's just such a great asshole). Cena, I'm not too fond of, if only because he's always had the potential to be more than he is. It seems like, once he won the WWE championship, he just said, "OK, that's it, I'm good enough, I don't have to work on improving anything I do." He's still really sloppy and green in the ring, and somebody who's been working as long as he has been with the people he's been working with really shouldn't be. Hulk Hogan may only have had 6 moves, but at least they looked decent. I still like Cena's mic work, though; he's a funny guy. And as for "attacking anybody that's popular that they don't like"... well, that's kinda what you've been doing to Bret all along, kettle.
RAF: First of Heartburn I got that opinion of you when I noticing that you made troops based on derogatory smark nicknames like spot monkey instead of high flyers and include rumors as facts (granted it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference). I do not hate Bret Hart, while I was not fan of his when I was little, I relies that against someone that either has a similar enough stile or is versatile enough he can have a great match. As a matter of fact one of my favorite all time matches was his fight against Owen Hart in a 16 foot high steel cage at summerslam 94. The reason I added him to the page was because while I started watching during that time period there was apparently a mass exoduses of fans when he got the belt. As for Chris Jericho I have been a Jericholic for years, he has that rare mix of charisma athleticism and finesse that only a few other people like Shawn Michaels and Owen Hart posses, as a matter of fact I told him that last when I met him last Saturday. The heat against Edge has died down considerably after his first heel run but it is still there. I used to defend both of them on forums against people like you and your meatpuppet Mc Jeff.
Heartbreak: while there might have been some old school wcw fans that did not like him becouse he was hulk hogan he succesfuly lead WCW as a face and was still over with the vast majority of the fans even during the Dungen of Doom fued (which in retrospect was kind of silly). Looking at the numbers you provided it seemes that Hogan was still more succesful as champion then anyone else in that time period, and they did alot worse when he was not carrying the belt. It almost seemes that you have a personal problem with Hulk Hogan judging by some of the other stuff you posted about him on this wiki, but regardles of his backstage anticks the fans still loved him.
HeartBurn Kid: "It almost seemes that you have a personal problem with Hulk Hogan judging by some of the other stuff you posted about him on this wiki..." [citation needed] As for the rest of what you said, it shows that you weren't watching the show at that point, either. Even when somebody else had the belt, it was all about Hogan. It was pretty similar to how Raw was right after the brand split, where it was all Triple H, all the time. I'm not talking about backstage, I'm talking about the whole thing being front and center before everybody's eyes. //Later: You know what? I'm just gonna go ahead and pull it out. It's pretty obvious this isn't going to get settled. Wait, somebody beat me to it. Oh, well, I'm done arguing.
McJeff: I readded Hogan to the section. Aside from the fact that Heartbreak and RAF are probably either sockpuppets or meatpuppets, if published (non-vanity) books such as Death of WCW and Ring of Hell describe how the WCW fans loathed Hogan right up until the nWo started, I'm going to believe their claims over those of some guy who can't find his shift key. Of course, there's also the fact that he even claimed he didn't watch WCW and so how would he know?
Heartbreak: Are You asking citation about your own edit history Heartburn? Ok the biggest one I found was you claiming that Hogan was responsible for David Arquett getting the world title and angle he had nothing to do with, other more recent ones include you removing the fact that his mixed racial heritage is the reason for his skin color I am sure there are more but I do not have the time to go through the archives. I was watching WCW at the time it was when I became a fan (I was not watching WWF) while Hogan was the biggest star there was also a lot of attention focused on people like Savage and the Giant. As for you Mc Jeff I do not recall reading anywere in The Death of WCW that Hogan was hated by most of the fans the fans. Also I have never heard of Ring of Hell is it any good? I am not a sockpuppet but from looking at this page it seemes you are Heatburns meatpuppet, just saying. Maybe we should just elimenate the whole wrestling section of this artical, it is to polerising
HeartBurn Kid: So, because I snarked about Hogan's weird orange skin, I hate him? I see you've thought this all the way through. And I removed the bit about his mixed heritage because it was written as "how dare those asshole racist smarks say such things!" which really isn't fair. And where the hell did I blame Hulk Hogan for David Arquette? I'm pretty sure the only person I ever blamed for that is Vince Russo. As for Spot Monkey, a Spot Monkey and a high flyer are two distinctly different things. A Spot Monkey is a wrestler who knows impressive spots, but knows nothing of psychology. A high flyer is a wrestler who has lots of moves that involve him jumping onto things. There are a lot of high flyers who are spot monkeys, and there are a lot of spot monkeys who are high flyers, but spot monkey != high flyer. Did you even read that article, or did you feel the need to launch into another half-cocked, badly-typed tirade against me was too pressing to actually stop and read? And RAF, yes, you're such a great Jericho fan, right? That's why you were lobbying so hard to change X-Pac Heat to "Jericho Heat", and feeding me a cock-and-bull story about how the Evil Canadian Internet Wrestling Fan Cabal were covering for Jericho not being over? You know, kinda like how you're accusing me of doing to Bret? Did you tell Jericho how you thought he wasn't over at all, and only got his push because Vince likes small Canadian men, like you said on X Pac Heat Discussion? Seriously, dude, you're like the most passive-aggressive fan I ever had the displeasure of talking to. "Oh, I love Chris Jericho/Bret Hart/{whoever your next target is going to be}, but there's no denying everybody else thinks he sucks, and it's only a conspiracy of smart marks that keeps it off the internet..." But now, I really am done with this, unless you guys want to keep calling me out on shit I didn't say.
DoKnowButchie: Removed TMNT: Fast Forward's Cody Jones; given that the season was more or less completely written out before the character debuted, there was no way for the creators to take fan considerations in the treatment of the character. What's more, were the Wesley, he would have remained in the cast for Back to the Sewers, instead of written out. He's a Scrappy if everything (although I'd disagree with even that).
High Five: The last example for Real Life Wesleys reads like an EPIC Author Tract to me. Anyone else?
Willy Four Eyes: Yup. Deleting.
Froggo Fan 64, if you want to see where people are complaining about Dulcy, look on deviant art, youtube, http://www.saturdaymorningsonic.com/forums/
, and http://www.satamfans.com/forum/ .
Bring The Noise: Cut - "* Marvel's Jessica Jones (New Avengers). This editor has yet to see what she actually does (besides Luke Cage). Particularly egregious since only one writer (Brian Bendis, her creator) really does anything with her, making her faux-Action Girl / Badass Normal scenes seem even more tacked on.
- Less apparent in her origin series, Alias, where her character is a failed superhero working as a private detective. Bendis liked the character enough to put her onto New Avengers where she really doesn't belong - a character who obviously doesn't want to be a superhero fits really poorly in a team whose main reason for being is to defy a government ban on superheroes.
- In all fairness, she is only in New Avengers as Luke Cage's wife and mother of his baby; she is a side character in this series."
- Less apparent in her origin series, Alias, where her character is a failed superhero working as a private detective. Bendis liked the character enough to put her onto New Avengers where she really doesn't belong - a character who obviously doesn't want to be a superhero fits really poorly in a team whose main reason for being is to defy a government ban on superheroes.
Because to be The Wesley, a character needs to be a) hated (which she is, although I don't get it) and b) have the focus on the character INCREASE in the face of this hatred, when (as stated above), she's a side character who has a small role as Cage's wife. Oh, and she's not a Badass Normal, she's a retired superhero, who gets rather Mama Bear when someone threatens her kid, which is pretty understandable, really.
Jill Bug: I put in the East Enders example but on reflection I think it would work better under The Poochie (ie. the characters were written out because they didn't "gel") so I've moved it there.
Greenygal: The Lucas Wolenczak example puzzles me—if he was popular, and given more airtime in response to that popularity, which is what his entry seems to indicate, then what's he doing on this page?
K9feline: Removed both Rose Tyler and Donna Noble from this list as they're both very popular characters among a majority of fans.
Grimace: And I put them back in, because thanks to a fandom as big and diverse as Doctor Who, they got a fair amount of negative feedback. I should emphasise I quite liked Rose as a character (and loved Donna, but that wasn't my entry), but found the constant praising of her grating (and I was hardly the only one). I did make a point of stating, in the entry, that she was deservedly quite popular. It's a pretty tame entry, I felt (at least, I tried to make it so).
Rebochan: A character with a Hatedom really isn't the same thing as a Wesley though. Almost nobody liked the Trope Namer. Meanwhile, Rose and Donna are two of the most popular companions in the history of the show. Also, some of the most popular episodes of the new series had neither one in them - a key argument against this. Especially Blink.
Just thought I'd throw this reasoning up in case the entry comes into debate again.
Rebochan: To the person who submitted Scooby Doo, sorry, I tried to put the actual trope it goes under in the edit window but I hit enter by mistake before I was done. You're actually describing Network Decay.
Nlpnt: The picture's okay, but one of the Wesley Crusher painting on velvet
that someone sent to Wil Wheaton would be perfect
tHHHeGame1083: Deleted the Relena Peacecraft section, because the majority of the Relena haters are yaoi fangirls and the fangirls who want Heero for themselves. I've seen a You Tube channel which pairs Heero Yuy with... a Mary Sue.
Rebochan: In addition to the usual This Troper burninating, I did some more general cleanup that is worth mentioning here since I imagine there may be some discussion.
- Neelix on Star Trek: Voyager. He, too, was eventually Put On A Shuttlecraft, but it was much too late as the Grand Finale was a mere two episodes later...and he cameos in it.
- This troper wouldn't consider Neelix to be a Wesley. Sure, he could be annoying, but his character was fairly well developed and he didn't get a ridiculous amount of screen time, especially towards later seasons. He was a crap character in seasons 1-3, but after Kes left he got a lot better. I can't think of him having many episodes. He had Homestead, Mortal Coil and Once Upon A Time. I can't think of anything else. (Though I will admit those episodes sucked.)
The justification is even longer than the example. And not being familiar enough with Voyager or much of its fandom, I tend to think this description doesn't make him much of a Wesley. To be honest, my barometer of a Wesley is usually "Have I heard of them even without ever touching the show?" And in that respect, I tend to hear a lot more about Seven of Nine than this guy. Though without much familiarity with Voyager, I can't really add her in good faith.
- Third Rock from the Sun would have been one of this editor's favourite shows... if it wasn't for a certain Dr. Mary Albright and her assistant Nina.
- Thank you! Third Rock from the Sun is one of this troper's favourite shows, but when Mary and Nina come on, he generally tunes out or just spends the time shaking his head in disgust. The fact that they constantly berate Dick for making fun of people, when they do the exact same thing to him and others is one of the things about them that particularly annoys this troper.
This doesn't seem to be this trope at all - The Wesley should be hated by the majority of the fandom and the writers should ignore this and write them even more. All I'm seeing in this example is "You know what, I totally hated this character!" Followed by "ME TOO!" Which is just Conversation In The Main Page.
- Arguably Abby Lockhart on ER. Has a fanbase, but most fans don't like her, yet aside from her poor personality she is a true Mary Sue. Keeps making diagnosis that no one else was able to make, convincing patients that no one else can convince that they need to take a certain course of action, excelling at everything during her rotations, always getting "the coolest" lines... Not to mention she has a tendency to date the lead character.
- The diagnosis thing isn't so far-fetched. The character was a nurse before becoming a doctor, and my cousin who is a nurse assures me that sometimes nurses can reach a diagnosis before doctors, simply because they spend much more time with each patient than the doctors do, and that by virtue of their demanding workload, they may be more familiar with certain sympotoms than doctors are.
Not watching ER, all I can say is that the example seems tenuous at best. Even the original writer seems to think it's only possibly an example and has to admit there's a fandom, calling into question whether "most fans" don't like her.
- This troper's brother watches The Suite Life Of Zack And Cody alot, and I've noticed that London Tipton seems to get an annoyingly long subplot every episode. Then again, seeing that she's an Attention Whore who's a parody of Paris Hilton, this could almost be justified.
- Alot of viewers do love London (mostly due to Brenda Song's portrayal and/or her Les Yay with Maddie.) Bailey from the Spin-Off series would be a more straight example of The Wesley.
So is she or isn't she? I'd have De-Troperized the example if it didn't change its mind. And I've got no idea who the other character is and why she'd be this.
- Bowser Jr. from the Mario series. He has been given such a boost that, in the Super Mario Bros remake New Super Mario Bros, you kill Bowser on the first level and spend the rest of the game chasing his son.
- His complete absence from SSBB makes it unlikely that Nintendo thinks he's popular, though.
Another one having trouble making up its mind whether he's a Wesley. I know he's The Scrappy, but whether he's up to The Wesley seems weak at best.
- An issue present in both Oblivion and Fallout 3 is that the player isn't the hero of the story, instead, he is the hero's errand boy, the real hero is the guy with the voice actor they hyped up to no end.
- This Troper disagrees. Part of what made Oblivion great was the fact that your character starts out as a prisoner, a nobody, and slowly throughout the game, his legend grows. Characters in-game start acknowledging you based on your behavior. As for Fallout 3, the main character IS the center of his world, so much so that Galaxy News Radio basically dedicates its news segments to oogling over your greatness.
- Not to mention that, regardless of the choice you make at Fallout 3's end, it's obvious you've made a big impact on the Wasteland, whether it's because you saved the Wasteland or doomed it, depending on what you did.
- This Troper can see how Oblivion can be seen like that, however, Fallout 3's Wall Banger ending makes it very clear you are the hero, or a Craven Coward.
- This Troper disagrees. Part of what made Oblivion great was the fact that your character starts out as a prisoner, a nobody, and slowly throughout the game, his legend grows. Characters in-game start acknowledging you based on your behavior. As for Fallout 3, the main character IS the center of his world, so much so that Galaxy News Radio basically dedicates its news segments to oogling over your greatness.
...so who exactly is The Wesley in all of this? This just appears to be a rant that your main character doesn't get to do enough. Which is fine, but it's not this trope.
- As Drawn Together entered its second season, most of the character focus was on Ensemble Dark Horse Captain Hero. This, to a number of viewers, ended up making him an example of this trope (even if he is a borderline Ax-Crazy Heroic Sociopath).
It seems to be missing whether he's just an Ensemble Dark Horse or whether most of the viewers hate him despite the writers loving him, as well as whether the show declined along with it (another key component).
- Herbert the pedophile in Family Guy is featured far too often, occasionally with a too-long musical number. (I'm looking at you, Blue Harvest.)
- Honestly, Herbert is the one who gets mention? Brian has become an avatar for Seth McFarlane in a horribly unsubtle way, and is used to reflect his political views and relationship troubles.
- This troper believes that Brian was always meant to act as an avatar for Seth Mc Farlane. Brian's political views were the same as Mcfarlane's at the start of of this series, only now it's become less subtle, hence Brian becoming more of an [[Author Avatar}}.
- I can deal with Brian's preachiness. I don't like it, but I can deal. Herbert makes me want to take a fucking chemical shower. And he went and ruined my favorite song from Little Shop of Horrors. Nerd rage!
- Like Herbert, Bruce also got the upgrade from "occasional gag character" to being featured on a fairly consistent basis, probably due to his voice (which is even done by the same actor who voiced Herbert.)
I actually pulled this because it's very confusing. These character may well be this trope, but the current version was a giant mess of natter and personal stories and feelings. Does much of the fandom feel this way? It's been forever since I've watched Family Guy, though I'd suggest that Brian could have easily hit this from how the show was headed the last time I watched. On the other hand, Brian fails at a lot of things too and there's still the matter of his obvious racism, something I doubt Seth MacFarlane would attribute as a positive trait. Unfortunately, I don't have the experience to rewrite it into a good entry. The example probably just needs a rewrite though. Its usually my experience that if a bad example doesn't get pulled, though, nobody ever fixes it.
I also ripped a few potholes to Mary Sue out because that term is thrown around so lightly as to have no impact. Come on guys, "I don't like her, therefore any sign of anyone else liking her or her not being the useless pile of fail I think she is means she's a Sue!" Have some standards.
Cyclone49: Does Micheal Cutter from Law And Order really count as The Wesley? The Scrappy maybe, but being The Wesley implies that the writers are either favouring him over other characters or giving him Mary Sue-ish tendancies. The sheer amount of What the Hell, Hero? moments he's received and the fact that he is frequently criticized by almost all his colleagues for his actions aside, I can't see how he's been featured any more heavily than Ben Stone or Jack McCoy were when they were in his role. He's the lead prosecutor for god's sake, of course he's going to be featured heavily in a lot of episodes - Stone and McCoy were as well. In fact, I'd argue that he has less of a prominent role than previous EADAs, simply because McCoy is playing a larger role than previous DAs did.
Nick Uzifang: I gotta say, isn't Scrappy a Wesley? He couldn't have been popular, yet in every incarnation of Scooby-Doo he was untouchable, and gradually took more and more of the focus, leading it into kiddie-program territory, until a sudden reversal in the mid-1980s. Maybe Scrappy is a misremembered Wesley.
Rebochan: Actually, contrary to popular belief, Scrappy was very popular at the time he was introduced - the show was about to get canceled and he was thrown in as a desperate attempt to revive it. The ratings went through the roof, so he turned into The Urkel. Of course the writers kept focusing on him - the contemporary viewers apparently loved him. That we all hate him now just makes him Deader Than Disco. And hey...this might be shocking, but Scooby-Doo was always a kid's show. Come on, it's a show that deliberately added a talking dog to keep the stories from frightening its target audience.
Orihime: This crap is very blatant character bashing disguised as a Wesley claim. Taking it out.
- Ranka Lee. Guess who can control the Vajra with her singing? Ranka. Guess who can cure Sheryl's space AIDS by glaring at her and making her stomach glow? Ranka. Guess who arguably wins out for Alto over Sheryl, in spite of the Word of God Tenchi Solution ending? Ranka. Guess whose music is used as the battle theme for about half the series? No points for guessing Ranka. Guess who turns out to be biologically related to the Badass Anti-Hero? Ranka Mother Fucking Lee.
- Oddly enough, Macross Frontier slightly subverts this. In spite of being a gigantic Mary Sue, Ranka is legitimately adorable and overall a well-developed character... in fact, moreso than Alto, even.
- No kidding. I'm pretty sure to qualify for The Wesley status, the character has to be universally hated, not just despised by a couple fans in a snit.
Cambdoranononononono: He doesn't show up much and the writers don't appear to like him, so, no, he's not "practically the embodiment" or even an example.
- Cubert Farnsworth is practically the embodiment of this trope. There are several threads on various Futurama forums dedicated to killing him in very painful ways. In fact, whenever he appears, this trope feels the need to throw her remote at the TV.
- Ironically, Cubert was actually made to be a Wesley. The idea was that he'd be an annoying character, as a thinly veiled parody of Wesley Crusher, however the Futurama characters would hate him just as much as the audience did and would act accordingly (punching him and so on). Unfortunately, the series was unable to develop this idea.
The Tambourine Man: The Persona 4 entry needs to be rewritten or moved to the scrappy. It says why the character would be hated, but no evidence of the writers giving him preferential treatment.
Some New Guy: Done. Not that I don't like Yosuke, its just that I've heard quite a few fans bashing on him for the given reasons.
Orihime: Removed this:
- And yet another could be Orhime, for being the Mcguffin and the Deus ex machina all in one. In my opinion she is probably the worst Wesley I've seen. Not only are her powers god mode, but she is in literally every arc, as either the group healer or the damsel in distress.
OBVIOUS character bashing of the "She's the Wesley BECAUSE I HATE HER". And considering how Orihime the character gets nerfed by the plot every time she tries to take an active role, I highly doubt she's Kubo Tite's Darling.
Great Pikmin Fan: Do the Kankers from Ed Edd N Eddy count? I think that since they are used as a quick way to wrap up the episode, the writers must like them. Yet, they are hated by nearly every single EENE fan.
—-
- Code Geass has Rolo and for his later series actions, Ohgi.
Orihime: While a case can be made for Ougi, why is Rolo The Wesley? As said already, better explain why first, since witrh a fandom as screaming and unpleasable as this one it's easy to think that it's les about Wesley qualities and more about "s/h/it is the Westley because I SAY SO!"
Peteman: Can Deckard Cain be considered a Wesley? He comes across merely as a reoccurring character to me. And from what I remember, he didn't charge you money to identify your crap in the second game.
Splatter: Pulled Crow, as there's no indication of him being an author's darling. He gets about as much screen time as any other character. See also Kiryu, who has many of the same traits crow does, but whom no one bats an eye about. A character can be disliked without being utterly repulsive.
Dausuul: Tweaked the entry on Wesley Wyndham-Price. He may have been The Scrappy at first, but he was never The Wesley - the scriptwriters didn't adore him and indeed mocked him regularly.
azul120: It's not an explicit argument that Crow is an author's darling so much that he has been relentlessly had his Marty Stu powers pimped. He's essentially Johan Anderson Mark II.
- Splatter: But the very definition of this trope is unnecessary focus on the character. Johan had that. Crow doesn't.
- azul120: But Crow had that as well as he came into the series.
