Reviews VideoGame / League Of Legends

As an addendum (400 words really ISN'T enough space) Riot have also put in an incredible effort to make LoL unquestionably THE leading esport in the world. The LCS system of sponsored official PROFESSIONAL teams mean that "professional gamer" is now a genuine and legitimate career choice even outside of South Korea and they've managed to make the game a completely valid (and exciting) spectator sport that even non-gamers can get some enjoyment out of.

Removing denial to encourage champion interaction within lane.

Lessening player control over the lane encourages "interaction"?

This reads like a great advertisement for League, less so like a review.

@Pannic: Sure does. You can't make the opponent miss CS by taking it from them, so you have to make them miss it by driving them back directly. I would have thought that would be obvious.

@Mc Someguy: Because god forbid someone with a positive opinion about a game should say anything positive about it in a review...

Zoning/harassment? That's something that also exists in Dota. Not explaining how removing a feature adds to the game.

It's removing a bad feature. Forget it. You don't play LoL, you wouldn't understand and you're not trying to.

How is denial a bad feature, and how does its removal improve things? Getting defensive does not answer my question.

I'm not having this debate with you. Even if I make any good points, you'll just disregard them. I know your type.

What is Pannic's "type", exactly? The type who wants a poorly-worded point to be elaborated upon?

The type who wants me to answer his question, NOT because he's interested in knowing what the answer is, but because he wants to try and force me to admit that Dota 2 is better than LoL, because that's his agenda. I'm not dancing to his tune and I'm not explaining how removing denial makes the laning phase far more exciting and interactive just so he can say "you're wrong".

You got very defensive, very quickly. And very rude, I might add.

Well tell me I'm wrong? Why do you want to know how removing denial improves the game? Is it because you're curious? Because you want me to enlighten you about things you don't know? Or is it because you're a Dota fanboy who wants to make me back down on any claim that LoL is the better game? Be honest now.

I'm a Dota 2 player and I find your claim dubious. I'm asking for your reasoning.

Are you going to answer my question or not?

Fine, I will answer your question. Creep denial has some serious problems in my mind, one of the most obvious being that it causes a lot of pub-stomps given that having even a little more skill in CS-ing can create an insurmountable lead against the weaker player. This rewards skill in a big way, true. But it also tends to be really bad for the community as a lot of new players will quit due to frustration before picking up on all the game's strong points. Two, it creates and even bigger ranged/melee discrepancy than already exists in league. Now as a player of DOTA 2 you obviously know that many melee units have gone in and out of top tier, but in my experience it can make that discrepancy really hard to balance for. Three, it offers a low-risk strategy with good rewards. By denying creeps, you also force the wave toward your side of the field, making it safer for you to farm and requiring an opponent to overextend to even get compete (especially if they are melee), while good teamwork can recify this in solo queue this can be a nightmare. Four, effective denial in League requires more skill than in DOTA 2. This is probably the most controvesial thing I will claim. But basically you can deny decently well with about the same amount of skill that it takes to farm decently well, in order to deny at all in league you have to really know your match-up, when to attack, when to retreat, when you are safe versus overextended. There is no way to deny that doesn't involve interacting with your opponent directly (which what I think AA meant by 'encouraging interaction'). Also denial is typically a much more risky tactic in Lo L, because it typically forces you to push beyond the enemy's minion line, thus exposing you more to ganks. Also, crucially since you are still attacking and you opponent likely is not, the minions will start to push toward your opponent, meaning that they will get a little bit of safe farming near their turret, that will be much harder to deny, preventing a total lock-out. Five, in my experience there is very little counter-play to creep denial. I freely admit that I just may not be good enough to see it, but in my time in DOTA 2, the only real way to play against creep denial was to be better last hitting than the opponent, which I felt put way to much emphasis on one of the most boring parts of the game. Six, heavy denial can really draw out a game to a pretty extreme length. This may not be a fair criticism, but I want games to be like 30-40 minutes I just don't have time for a game to fairly frequently be like an hour long. Seven, and this will be the most subjective criticism by far. I hate it. Its just weird. I'm storming an enemy base alongside my army, and then I turn on them and start cutting them down? So that my opponent doesn't get the chance? That feels wrong on so many levels.

In conclusion creep denial is a game mechanic that I feel detracts from the fun of the game, is intensely newbie unfriendly to the detriment of the community as a whole, and is freakin' strange.

Well, that was a bit more in-depth than I would have gone, but basically yeah. The short version as I consider it: do DOTA players thing that, since LoL doesn't have denial, the laning phase is just a matter of people sitting back and letting each other farm unmolested? Of course not! Since LoL champions can actually use their lower cost shorter cooldown abilities in lane without going out of mana in 2 or 3 casts (hell, LoL actually has champions that don't use mana, fancy that!) the laning phase is a constant battle between champions over the minions, with players regularly being forced out of lane by heavy harassment or baited into a jungler gank that kills them. To put it simply, to prevent your opponent from farming in LoL, you need to stay within range of him. To do it in DOTA, you only need to stay within range of your own creeps. I know what's more exciting.

Also, you started your line of questioning by asking about "lessening player control over the lane". Do you know what lane freezing is, or hard pushing? Because towers are so much stronger in LoL than in DOTA a lot of champions can "deny" their opponents CS by forcing their minion wave into the enemy turret so they have to struggle to weave last hits in between turret shots, often having to use their abilities to do so. Lane control is a PIVOTAL skill in high level LoL, it just relies on different mechanics than in DOTA. It's FAR more active and exciting than DOTA laning.

And addressing your reason for asking- I honestly don't much care whether you find my claims dubious. DOTA players doubt everything about LoL. I'm going to be completely honest here- I just don't like DOTA players and I've given up on arguing the varying merits of LoL vs DOTA with them because they make it an unpleasant experience, so you shouldn't be surprised that I'm reluctant to engage with you.

Pannic shouldn't be surprised you're reluctant to engage with them because of your own personal dislikes that they would have had no way of knowing about beforehand?

I would have thought my personal opinions would have been clear enough before I just spelled them out...

Just a rule of thumb. Your personal beliefs are never really clear before you spell them out, and its not really fair to expect people to get them or to dismiss them when they don't. I get that the dueling fandoms of League and DOTA 2 can make things get rather hostile in an unwarrented way, and everybody at some point has likely had some bad experiences with particularly toxic members of the opposing fandom (I remember one guy who continually implied that I liked league was because I wasn't smart enough for DOTA 2, and this was in person so GIFT doesn't even apply). While its understandable that you might want to spare yourself the aggravation of engaging with yet another troll more interested in belittling you and telling you that you are wrong than discussing, that isn't what the rest of us necessarily see because we have not necessarily had those experiences (Not to imply that Pannic is a troll).

Yeah, Trundle is iconic and immortal, that´s why he got remade. Wait...