Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Subjective, poorly-defined conglomeration of tropes, started by Marshmello on Jun 5th 2011 at 10:53:36 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanLinking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Isn't this a deliberate characterization?, started by DragonQuestZ on Aug 24th 2011 at 1:29:14 AM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanThere used be a section here talking about how some characters of 19th century literature can fit this. Like Tiny Tim.
Why is it gone?
I don't know if it's just me but this page has several with misuse especially from the Western examples (The Fairly Odd Parents and Kim Possible are Moe series.... Really?) . Also, The trope is mostly seen as "a series or character this person finds cute". I know it's a YMMV trope and everything but still... I also think that it might benefit the page to be limited to Japanese media and works that are influenced by it.
I'm not trying to bypass TRS or anything. I'm just voicing my concerns to make sure they are not unfounded so I can sometime in the future make a clean up thread for it.... Hopefully, I'm not using the wrong place for this...
Edited by MacronNotes Macron's notes Hide / Show RepliesWould a Cloud Cuckoolander count as Moe? Such girls are to me.
Edited by 174.251.113.74 Hide / Show RepliesJust looked at the Four Laws; the forth basically requires it.
Edited by 216.7.225.162Why does this trope get so much flack? A character can be a total moe-blob and still be able to hold their own when they need to (Badass Adorable is a good example). Doesn't it just mean that a character gives off this sense of being innocent, cute and so lovable that you just want to scoop them up and keep them? Why does that automatically equal "bad role model" for girls? Sure, vulnerability is a factor, but how many of us can say we've never felt vulnerable in our lives?
Hide / Show RepliesBecause it still holds the implication that women are there only for vaguely cute eye candy and to depend on men. An emotional dependence is just as sexist as a physical dependence.
The definition of "Moe" has definitely changed over time. Nowadays it's used to define a sort of sexual fascination with cuteness, whereas in the past "Moe" was definitely more of a Big Brother Instinct feeling. I get the feeling that we should divide the two definitions. There are plenty of male examples on here, but they don't seem to fit the modern definition of "Moe" as much as girls do, more the classic example of giving the reaction that you want to protect them.
Because it's a weird, broad-yet-specific concept that's really hard to put into words, especially where western audiences are concerned, and therefore there are a ton of misconceptions, such as moe characters only ever being female, or being totally dependent, presumably on a man. It's easier to react with righteous indignation to a weird foreign idea than it is to figure out what the hell it means.
EDIT: Fixing up my misguided view
This definition of Moe seems to fail to realize that 'cute' is not a defining characteristic of all Moe. Its certainly the most common, but a brutalized, scarred little girl can easily invoke the Big Brother instinct which pretty much defines Moe.
Edited by StephanReiken Hide / Show RepliesDo the examples have any clear pattern other than "female character someone happens to find cute"? This is a good example I pulled from the main page that illustrates my problem with how the trope is currently set up:
- Chihiro/Sen in Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away.
- While on the topic of Miyazaki, Markl in Howls Moving Castle is kind of moey.
- Um, no. Miyazaki is actually strongly opposed to moe. Simply having endearing characters in one's works does NOT necessarily make them moe.
- Miyazaki may be well-known for his opposition to the sexual elements of moe, but that doesn't mean his characters don't sometimes come off looking that way. Call it Author Appeal if you want. Or Only Six Faces.
- While on the topic of Miyazaki, Markl in Howls Moving Castle is kind of moey.
Highlighted an interesting point.
Isn't moe more of an Audience Reaction trope though? Ergo, the author's intent doesn't make or break moeness.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.A thought: Should we have an image links section for this trope?
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted. Hide / Show RepliesYes, definitely. I still don't know why the page image changes so much without image links like most fast image pages have. Since 2011 theres been at least 15 image changes for me and I trope very very infrequently.
Geat! Now. how do I make an image links page.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.Go here and start editing. To get more images, you could try digging through the archived IP thread.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.Page started.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.I'm honestly not sure how most of the series for Western Animation in the "entire series that are moe" section even qualify. Fairly Odd Parents? Really?
Edited by Oecchi Hide / Show RepliesYeah, that's really bad. We'll have to do a bit of chainsawing.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - FighteerIs there a trope to describe the opposite of a moe character? Not so much the "weakness turns her on" trope. Think more along these lines— if Moe characters are meant to be attractive because they are cute and helpless, thus instilling in the viewer a desire to be protective of said character, the opposite as far as "fanservice characters" go would be a female who is meant to be someone more nurturing and take charge, who makes the male feel like the character is someone who will take care of them rather than the other way around?
Hide / Show RepliesOr Hot Amazon. Maybe they could make a daughter trope if anyone could think of an example.
See you in the discussion pages.They wouldn't have to be physically stronger. Heck, they could be a Barrier Maiden or a Magical Girl you could count on for protection. Or, they could simply provide emotional support like a mother figure. Am I on the right track here?
I think the Mama Bear and Hot Amazon tropes are on the right track, though maybe No Guy Wants an Amazon truly is the opposite of moe. (strong, dominating females aren't considered moe unless they have a ridiculously girly side- like maybe she can fight your battles for you and even be a total brute, but maybe she blushes easily and cleans up nicely)
Edited by MizuTakishimaOr Yamato Nadeshiko. I'd expound on that, but I'm too tired to think right now. Get back to y'all tomorrow.
EDIT: Okay, so much for tomorrow-tomorrow. The 'female character who you'd want to take care of you' bit immediately brought to mind Lilly from Katawa Shoujo.
Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.Why are we not supposed to list examples on a work's own page?
Hide / Show RepliesBecause it goes on the YMMV tab.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanHow about a less exploitative scene for the pic, Unfortunate Implications and all? Not all Moe characters are (reduced to) moeblobs.
Hide / Show RepliesThat seems like a good idea. And, am I the only one who's getting a really weird creepy vibe from the pic caption? It sounds exactly like the kind of thing a weird otaku Gonk villain might say regarding the situation.
Edited by KwanzorOr Aizen, perhaps, haha.
Something that's outwardly more adorable without the exploitation vibe there.
"Our documentary now focuses on the Moeblob... treat with care, they cry easily."
Welp.
The caption is still super creepy.
Why was the picture replaced with moe/mo from Simpsons, but clicking on it still takes you to Haruhi Suzumiya? Was it a troll than changed the picture?
Hide / Show RepliesApparently, trolls have a sense of humor. Who knew?
Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE."Also, despite general belief that moe females are more tolerated, often the "bad traits" that make moe girls "offensive", "sexist" and "bad role models" are somehow seen as "cute, squishy and adorable" in boys."
This sentence bugs me. The people that like moe boys are usually too busy fangirling to care one bit about whether moe girls are bad role models. It's not really a double standard if the two different standards are held by two different groups.
Hide / Show RepliesYes, I kind of got confused with that sentence, especially where the beginning of the article said something about how moe traits are accepted/typical in girls, but unacceptable/immature in boys. Contradiction, anyone?
Irothtin: This article attempts to give Moe a fairly concrete definition. Thoughts?
Edited by Irothtin Eat before shopping. If you go to the store hungry, you are likely to make unnecessary purchases. Hide / Show RepliesUgh.
Yeah, that seems to sum it up. Makes you wonder if manga writers have that same set of features on their character design cop-out checklist.
You're selling what now?Thanks for posting that (Irothtin). I was wondering what constitutes a moe, and just happened to find this. So basically: Cute, Innocent, Young, Quirky. Got it.
Ok, now what's with most of the real life examples getting moved over to Troper Tales?
Hide / Show RepliesBecause they're fucking creepy.
Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.The celebrity examples, you mean (i. e. Felicia Day)? That can't be right. Especially since there are still some left over on the main page.
Are we in danger of a Just A Face And A Caption issue? I have no idea what that caption is talking about. It just looks like any anime girl with glasses.
Hide / Show RepliesConsidering this is about visual appearance, having just a face seems fairly harmless here. Whether or not the picture is an example of this trope is another matter, but it seems like it to me.
IJBM lives on here! Sign up!Could just change the caption to "THIS CHARACTER HAS TRAITS THAT ARE PARTICULAR TO MOE"
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Improper redirect?, started by Killomatic on Feb 5th 2011 at 11:27:37 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman