Discussion Film / TheAvengers2012

So, in the end, where do the Fanfic recomendations for Avengers go?

Not everything is a trope.

Not everything is a trope.

Huh. There should be a trope for that...

That'd be a question for the Trope Finder and YKTTW.

There doesn't need to be a trope for every idiosyncratic way that someone might hold a weapon.

You are using two folder openings at the top. Just one should be there.

Well, it's not Genre Savvy because he's not acting on knowing Comic Book tropes, he's acting on the fact he knows them personally and knows what they'll do.

Now, it is an example of Omniscient Morality License because if he's wrong, then some of the things he's done (pushing for Phase 1 over Phase 2, stopping the nukes) would've been... well, bad.

If I may be slightly pedantic, he's not in a comic book (which is a medium, not a genre), so he doesn't really need to know comic book tropes. But isn't it a common trope of upbeat action movies that the heroes show up exactly when they're needed? Even the heroes themselves might not be able to tell exactly when "we will need them to," only the writers can know that, and that's why it's more than just him knowing them personally, because essentially, he's expecting them to act on knowledge that there's no reason to assume they'll have. Granted, if the Avengers hadn't been around when Loki opened up the portal and brought in all the alien monsters, they certainly would've figured out to come a'running soon after, but as it happened, they were there before that, because we needed them to be. Well, mainly because Fury brought them together, but still not out of any of their own knowledge. Just imagine how different things would've been if Banner had stayed in Calcutta.

Also, not to be argumentative, but it doesn't seem like Omniscient Morality License applies to Fury, because that page specifies that no matter what the character does, he's still seen as the good guy. I think the movie made it very clear that The Avengers didn't exactly think of him that way by the end of it (like when Cap says "He has just as much blood on his hands as Loki does," that's a pretty strong statement for a supposed good guy).

Genre Savvy means that they can make guesses as to what's going to happen because they're familiar with works that cover what they're going through. Absolutely nothing about Fury indicates he's familiar with fiction related to what he's going through, so Genre Savvy obviously doesn't apply.

I guess maybe the other examples from this movie aren't very good, then? Because the combined examples involve Cap, Banner, Black Widow, Coulson, etc. making such predictions, and there's no indication that they're any more familiar with those works than Fury.

But in terms of that particular comment by Fury, the genre they're in is simply "upbeat action movie," not specifically superheroes or comicbooks, so the only way Fury's not familiar with that genre is if he's basically never been to the theater in his whole life. I don't see anything "obvious" about that assumption, nor do I see any indication (especially in the examples given for this movie) that Genre Savvy only applies when the character is savvy about the whole broad spectrum of the genre, and not just the single element they're commenting on at the time.

Of all time!

But Loki looked all sad and he was whimpering...

I laughed at the body slam too. Then I wanted to hug him.

What made it work for me was the pause between the third and fourth flailings. The Hulk thinking to himself: "Hulk still angry at this guy? Yes. Hulk still angry."

Not so much that it's more foul, it's just more recognized.

I'd say Precision F-Strike fits it; it reveals just how contemptuous and cruel Loki is underneath that sly exterior, yet it's archaic enough to be... (ahem) Shakespeare in the Park. Non-colloquial English isn't quite what Foreign Cuss Word is for.

I thought so, too, but I haven't actually discussed this with other people.

I agree. Especially because the "Old German guy" basically spells out that he saw Hitler, and feels Loki is no different.

I'm told that the OGG is canonically a Holocaust survivor, and that's a powerful image; but it would have as powerful in a different way if he had once been one of Germany's thousands of drafted boy-soldiers who once had to serve under Hitler and had spent the last seventy years regretting it.

The implication seemed to be that Thor could use Mjolnir as a defib.

Which still has nothing to do with what actually happened in the scene described in the second sentence.

Doesn't that make it a subverted example? I'm guessing the person who put that as an example just forgot to mention that.

Yes, I did. Wherps.

My GUESS is that the implication is, what with Tony's armor being supercharged by Thor for what could have been the whole rest of the movie, the arc reactor has enough extra power left to keep Tony alive and simply unconscious after a stunt that should have killed him

That was an entirely different armor from the one he's wearing in the climax. Iron Man used that 400% reserve just to blast Thor right then and there.

Don't forget it's not the armor that's supercharged, it's the reactor in his chest. That's never swapped out. And it makes perfect sense, too - the Arc Reactor is a reverse-engineered Tesseract, the Tesseract is Aesir technology, and Mjolnir gave it a jolt of pure sedr-based lightning after a lifetime of vanilla electricity.

What Kalaong said. And I wouldn't call it a Chekovs Gun, but more Fridge Brilliance.

I agree. It's like in Firefly where everyone cussed in Chinese. It doesn't mean that they didn't cuss, just that they did it in a different language.

There's not necessarily a monopoly, and Banner stays out of the action a little longer, as befitting someone's whose contribution is intelligence over brawn. Stark has a bit more to do than just being smart, while Banner spends most of the movie researching. And he has more than one "smart guy" moment.

Exactly. Banner was brought in for his scientific knowledge. For most of the movie, everyone was taking great pains to make sure the Hulk didn't pop up. It really isn't until the end that Hulk "joins" the team.

Well, they're both The Smart Guy, as shown when Stark and Banner first meet and Stark says "Finally! Someone who speaks English!" Banner is the more dedicated Smart Guy, but he's also The Big Guy. Like AP said, Banner was brought in for his knowledge on Gamma Rays. I don't see the problem with them both being The Smart Guys.

Maybe. I don't think there was anything directly stated, but I've always thought that Loki was found and basically brainwashed by Thanos using the scepter, hence why Loki was super-crazy-psycho in The Avengers but more just a Well-Intentioned Extremist in Thor. It may be explained in the Thor sequel, but we'll have to see.

I can add that much later the Quinjet Cap, Nat, and Clint takes a much longer time to get to New York than a malfunctioning Iron Man suit did. That seems to ties in with with Traveling At The Speed Of The Plot.

When I watched it, I seem to recall that - on the helicarrier - they first saw a shot of Loki hanging around outside the opera house. That implies the event hasn't yet started. It's lampshaded that he wants to be seen by SHIELD. In which case, he'd have to show his face hours beforehand, so they had time to get over to Germany.

Then we have a cut to the attack on the opera house. During that attack, the music is playing, implying we're now in the middle of the party/performance. It's only after the attack has succeeded that the Quinjet arrives - to see Loki very obviously grandstanding outside the opera house. Again, that implies the whole timing is planned (by Loki) to have SHIELD arrive shortly after Hawkeye and co have escaped with the phlebotinum.

I admit it's possible they've just started - but when watching in the cinema I took the whole scene to include a time jump cut from 'before performance' to 'middle of performance'. I certainly didn't think they'd travelled there at speed-of-plot; though since many people do, the editing probably didn't emphasise the elapsed time enough.

I originally took it that they were playing Loki's motif from the Wagnerian opera - which goes on for hours. If they're playing Schubert, it could still go on for hours; he did more than one String Quartet. If they're playing a selection from the classics, a classical concert would normally last two hours to two and a half hours. A quartet hired for a special party could be playing all evening.

It's Schubert's Rosamunde string quartet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA-QjmP_ZyM

"gyro" is pronounced the same as "hero".

That's not just a stealthy pun, that's frickin' invisible.

It's a very stealthy pun.

if it's not obvious goign in someonewill consider ti a spoiler.

Well, Loki as the villain wasn't obvious to ME going in. I checked the trailer. The movie was AWESOME but pretty much all I could tell from the trailer was that the villain, whoever he was, really, really HATED cars because there they were, being destroyed all over the place. So going by that logic the main villain would be a spoiler.

Of course, if I had any social life I would probably know that, but I don't.

It is done by a whole team of writers not just him, and he may only direct not write. I'd say more but I don't feed trolls.

He actually wrote the whole script himself. But seeing as how out of all of his TV shows, one had a male lead, one was an ensemble piece, and even the ones that focused on specific characters were basically ensemble pieces anyway, it's not a particularly valid prediction.

Think about Angel: a Fish out of Temporal Water who learns to trust others despite his knowledge of human bastardry.

This is simply the reverse: It seems Cap will be the viewpoint character - am inherently nice guy from a nicer time(his obnoxious superior refused to torture Nazis!) who has to learn how to work with some decent but inherently flawed people. He chose the Howling Commandos specifically because he had seen them perform under fire. The Avengers... Dysfunction Junction doesn't even BEGIN to cover it.

Saw the movie. Black Widow IS a solid character, but the main focus of the film is still the Big Four. If anything, it's Mark Ruffalo as Bruce Banner who steals the show.

No,he CO-wrote the movie.. not all of it himself.

Joss is great and all, but give Zak Penn some credit too.

I don't think just the level of damage is tropeable.

I was referring to a real organization jokingly performing its service in regard to a fictional event. Like the Supreme Court declaring the X-Men not human(in reference to action figures and the pricing thereof, actually), or the armed forces planning for an alien invasion.

I vote leave it in.

They had options but there was no arc. The last shot was purposefully vague so that other filmmakers could do whatever they want. Everything else has been fan speculation. As it stands, it is simply a shot of Bruce smiling as he turns into the Hulk. If we take that scene and apply it to the Avengers, it shows that he has mastered his anger in a more productive way which we saw in the climax.

An abandoned arc might be if there was a subplot in the Hulk's last movie that showed him being abducted by aliens, only for him to show up in the Avengers without explanation.

yeah that should at least be in YMMV. This troper agrees with this bit.

They are non-examples.

It's smart of Loki and the Council to plan ahead but it has nothing to do with the genre. If Loki was Genre Savvy, he would have known that splitting the team up will only result in them strengthening their ties. If the Council were savvy, they would have launched a nuke from a different location, rather than Fury's own helicarrier.

The team isn't too savvy in the scene mentioned above. While they suspect Loki was up to something, they still fell for his manipulations 100%.

Black Sabbath have a song called Iron Man. It played over the end credits of the first Iron Man movie (it's worth noting that the superhero predates the song, and the song is not actually about Tony Stark). In-universe, Tony Stark is almost certainly doing this deliberately.

The funny thing is, the song is deliberately not about Tony Stark. When the song was written, Iron Man was already an established character, so when writing the song, he made sure to make it clear that it wasn't about Marvel's Iron Man so they wouldn't get hit with a copyright suit or anything.

That's a pretty good analysis there.

Hawkeye's backstory was him and his brother joining a carnival and being trained by two members as a master archer.

The one I'm surprised no one is dissing me over is my description of Cap - this guy is AWESOME without having the even the slightest bit of jerk in him. I wonder if Cap's ever going to bring up how far our standards have fallen since his time. Sure, we have better race relations, but we're all but prepared to let our government get away with murder if it makes us feel safer. Pretty much the opposite of his time - we judged on race, but the Man refused to compromise on what morals it had.

I really, sincerely hope that very little time is spent in the movie on political commentary. I wanna see superheroes duking it out with aliens and gods, not political take thats.

Less political and more moral. Cap is implicitly NOT Dark And Edgy and that's A-OK.

Yeah, but it would be really easy and very tempting to take that "moral" commentary and have people turn it into political commentary.

At its most basic, Cap fights for love of his home, not hatred of his enemies. He doesn't want to kill anyone. He just doesn't like bullies, it doesn't matter where they come from. Even if he never says anything, the general disapproval he gives off in the presence of jerks could start something.

Do we have any evidence that Black Widow is either, 1, Russian, or 2, superhuman? I haven't seen any.

In "Fury's Big Week," Sterns is able to use his new powers to recognize that she spent her formative years in Stalingrad, but has been expatriate for far longer, and that this situation is due to "evil men." Though that last part might be hyperbole.

And it looked like he was trying to put the whammy on her, but she was able to shake it off rather easily.

The only real politcal commentary involved with Cap was him looking at his new costume and musing that the flag seems "a little old-fashioned". Coulson tells him that maybe what's needed is a little old-fashioned.

Oh, and Widow isn't a communist. She says she's Russian, then corrects it with "was Russian". Which means that even if she doesn't consider herself an American, she doesn't feel she's Russian anymore.

... And even if she did consider herself Russian, Scarlett Johansson was about six years old when the Soviet Union came to an end. Until they tell us that this incarnation of the Black Widow has the same longevity drugs as her comic-book counterpart, we have to assume that she was never a Soviet.

I called it on Cap, though. He nearly has the first colossal tantrum of his cinematic career when he finds out that SHIELD is screwing around with the Tesseract solely to re-create HYDRA's weapons, including the city-busters he smashed the Valkyrie into the ice to stop!!!

I wouldn't call that a tantrum.

It's seems very likely Hawkeye might use some sort of trick arrows such as arrows that makes explosions, electricity etc.

Handled in a very, VERY ingenious manner: Hawkeye's arrows are headless shafts, and the trick heads are actually contained in the quiver, which is mechanized and places the head on the arrow depending on what Hawkeye needs. He uses both the pointy kind and the trick kind.

Coulson's actor is in negotiations for reprising his role in the next Iron Man movie.

But if google serves me right, that bit of information was released before Avengers came out, which makes it look a bit like a red herring.

I was just about to ask about this, as I saw some edit/edit reasons assumed that Coulson's death must have been faked because of the interview comments which implied Coulson would survive the film. I'm thinking Lying Creator /Trolling Creator is much more likely

At this years D23 Expo (Disney's comic con) they showcased a clip from the film which had that Badass Boast.

http://www.slashfilm.com/footage-the-avengers-revealed-d23-expo/

Is the Gilligan Cut example from the same...showing?

AFAIK, the Gilligan Cut example is from the one-shot vid on the Thor bluray, not from this upcoming film. It'd probably belong more on the general Marvel Cinematic Universe page.

— EDIT FAIL :'( — {Deleted}

— EDIT FAIL :'( — {Deleted} - Sorry for the "spam".

Thanks! :-) I've removed it from the Avengers page and added it to the MCU page.

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/MarvelFreshman/news/?a=42034 :-)

It's just not going to happen without a Continuity Reboot on the FF series. The Fantastic Four film franchise rights are held by a different studio, so the movies are not in continuity with one another.

And Fox had plans to reboot the FF series, anyway.