Discussion Characters / Persona2PartyMembersAndProtagonists

Always go with more recent one.

Did they mention deja vu in IS psp? Since EP psp isn't localized in English and stuff.

Seeing as Deja vu is properly spelled with accent marks, wouldn’t we have to go with that.

I was wondering if I should change it back for consistency. Sorry, I'm a bit of a perfectionist.^^;;

I mean, I was the one who changed some of them in the first place... But I didn't catch all of them. For now, I'll just leave the other instances as is.

Then it applies just as much to Tatsuya if Katsuya is chosen. The Big Damn Kiss between them shouldn't count more than, say, the Big Damn Kiss between Lisa and Tatsuya in Innocent Sin.

Again but at least it shows reciprocation. Nothing is resolved with Katsuya. You can argue Tatsuya is not interested in Lisa. The same argument can not really be made with ep Maya.

Except...when Maya doesn't show interest in Tatsuya. Which she can choose not to do so again and again. There's nothing especially concrete about the ship besides Satomi Tadashi's preference for it, which he time and again has said shouldn't supersede the player's own choices in the games. In that quote I sent you, he even says that he can just as equally see a valid relationship between Maya and Katsuya, which in and of itself is superfluous.

But he also says the main hinderance in In a relationship between the two is Tatsuya again supporting the fact she tends to lean towards him. Again while it still is matter choice the romantic subtext is still stronger with Tatsuya than Katsuya. I do agree though while it may not be as obvious as Katsuya a entery could be added with Tatsuya. Such as

All Love Is Unrequited: Though not as obvious as his brother this can be the case. If Maya doesn’t persue him romantically this is also the case, do to him also being in love with her.

Would that work for you?

Where on earth are you getting the information that she leans towards him? I've scoured the interviews and World Book, and I have no idea where that's coming from. Again, from Satomi Tadashi:

"Q: Does she like Katsuya? Or does she like Tatsuya? A: That's up to the player. Since Maya represents the player, if that person likes Katsuya, then Maya likes Katsuya. And if the player prefers Tatsuya, then that means she will fall for Tatsuya. If I were Maya, I'd pick Tatsuya. But Big Brother is a really great guy...I'm sorry...you know. *laugh* But since Maya has the "big sister" mentality going on in Tsumi, if she did this and that with Tatsuya, it would be kind of awkward, but in Batsu I don't think she has that problem."

I don't see why I'm supposed to consider her feelings for Tatsuya "more obvious" when she's given ample opportunity to deny feeling anything towards him, as much as Tatsuya is allowed to deny feelings for any of his romance options in IS. And to that end, Satomi has confirmed that Tatsuya doesn't even find her particularly dateable. What's the canonical evidence for your belief?

Well let’s again look in game. Tatsuay seems to play the role of I guess “default” love interest. He also has I noticed more romantic subtext and not subtext in game which(again depending on your options) can result in Big Damn Kiss. Katsuya(also depending on choices) can be flirted with or teased. Again it’s not hard to see who the writer was leaning towards.

But it’s a Matter of choice. So can we agree with the compromise I suggested above?(which was based on your suggestion)

Dude, I'm not going to compromise when you can't provide any substantial evidence to support your stance. I provided no less than three quotes directly from the scenario writer of the game that contradict your position, even going back so far as our previous argument when you suggested that Maya was Tatsuya's implied love interest. It's illogical to repeat the idea that Tatsuya and Maya's Big Damn Kiss is somehow different from Tatsuya and Lisa's Big Damn Kiss. From the mouth of Satomi Tadashi we can confirm that:

1) He repeatedly predicates player choice over his own personal predilections. 2) Even if he didn't, he has literally said he considers Katsuya an equally valid love interest for Maya. 3) In spite of Maya's potential reciprocation of his feelings, Tatsuya does not view her as (to use Satomi's words) an "eligible woman".

I don't know why I'm supposed to concede to the idea that Tatsuya is somehow the default love interest when you haven't put up a solid argument that contradicts what I've already said.

Again I’m well aware of the quotes. There’s a difference in not making a valid argument and you ignoring it. You seem to be ingnoring in everything in the actual game. I have stated multiple times romantic subtext is there with Tatsuya and Maya in game regardless of choices. It’s to the the point even the other wiki calls him the “default”(you know the wiki that even didn’t believe you’re Jun argument you tried here). Regardless of interviews(which again are basically opinions on the issue) the game still is clearly leaning one way.

Also if I recall you suggested the implied love interest fit for ep last time.

I also fail to see how the current argument you are making in any way relates to the above compromise.

(Edits after looking at history of the other wiki you were also the one who added Tatsuya as the default...really)

Oh? The wiki that calls him the default? The wiki that also had the same Jun argument I used posted for years on it? But we digress. We're not on that wiki. You expect me to accept this completely optional kiss as being undeniable, unequivocal proof that Tatsuya is the default LI without providing me any other in-game interactions between Maya and Tatsuya that prove that that's the truth. Anything that's there for them is there for Katsuya and Maya. I couldn't care less if you think it's obvious that there's subtext in the game if you can't provide more than one interaction to support your idea, and you contradict Word of God. And need I remind you that you used those exact same interviews to try and intentionally mislead me in our previous argument ("honestly I was more curious if you would would look it up(if you didn’t I wasn’t going to correct you").

Edit: An edit I made to that wiki before I had access to the information from Satomi that I do now. Stop with that strawmans and start giving me canon interaction besides the kiss. If it's there, it shouldn't be a problem for you to prove it to me.

No the wiki that also shot down your suggestion of Jun https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Jun_Kurosu?diff=next&oldid=301177

Word of god only works when it’s related to actual facts not really when he says I lean one way but you do you.

I really shouldn’t have to compile a list that reads off every thing when one romance ends in a kiss and the other has no conclusion or really becomes a romance. I’d expect you to consider that at least. But fine I’ll go look through for every example.

You're being intentionally obtuse, aren't you. You couldn't provide any other canon interactions, you cherry-picked those exact same interviews when it suited your purposes to do so, which was a manipulative and dishonest action. Those are the words of the scenario writer, those are the facts we have about this series, and there's nothing saying Word of God can't say that certain facts about the series are up to the player's deliberation, which Atlus also does, for instance, with Kanji's sexuality in P4. Not that he does leave everything up to player deliberation anyway, like when he specifically says Tatsuya doesn't view Maya as dateable, or when he says that he believes it's totally possible for Katsuya and Maya to have a relationship together.

I don't care what you think you should and shouldn't have to do. I took the time to support my arguments, I expect the same effort out of you.

I never said I shouldn’t have to do anything. I said your arguments tend to ingnore facts and you dismiss other arguments. While I tend to disagree with you I never dismissed your point.

You’re making the argument were a relationship that becomes explicitly romantic is the the same as one that never goes beyond flirting. Never mind your argument about it not necessarily being a reciprocal kiss not holding up, do to the line to the line that leads up to that being “take me with you” and most of her unique lines in game being about seeing Tatsuya(or the fact one of the key points of the plot revolves around the relationship between the two).

And then there’s the issue about none of this having to do with all love is unrequited at all! So can we at least solve that issue first? It is the reason we are here in first place...

Dude. Either give me the canonical interactions, as promised, or move on. I don't agree that that kiss should count as being unequivocal proof of the Tatsuya romance being weighted more when literally the exact same thing happens between Tatsuya and Lisa in the previous game, AND the actual writer of the series has already said that the Tatsuya and Katsuya romance paths are equally valid.

Okay, the "take me with you" interaction as follows:

Tatsuya: "The fact remains that I'm the Paradox...if I stay here...then 'This Side' will be engulfed by the 'Other Side'...I'm going home..." (Keep in mind the "take me with you line is completely optional, again) Maya: > "Take me with you!" Tatsuya: "We are connected by this ocean...We can...meet again... *kisses her*"

...okay? Besides that kiss (which Maya doesn't initiate, and is apparently taken so off-guard by that she doesn't kiss back, and which happens under the exact same circumstances as the Tatsuya and Lisa kiss), I don't find any particular romantic subtext in that exchange. Keep in mind that Maya is also asking to go back to the universe where the other members of the masked circle from the previous timeline exist, the other people she also has intense interpersonal connections to. I hardly see you going around touting the idea that Jun and Tatsuya being repeatedly called each other's doppelgangers and light and shadow as proof that they're the canonical pairing for IS, so why are the unique contact options and plot points relevant here if they're not there?

And yes, you did say you shouldn't have had to. Right here: "I really shouldn’t have to compile a list that reads off every thing when one romance ends in a kiss and the other has no conclusion or really becomes a romance. I’d expect you to consider that at least. But fine I’ll go look through for every example." It's not my job to consider your arguments for you. I laid out my exact argument, and I expect you to do the same, whether you personally find it necessary or not.

I've been arguing the entire time that All Love Is Unrequited applies to both of them equally if one brother is chosen over the other, as stated by the literal author of the text. It's shouldn't be "It applies to Tatsuya less" because Satomi gave the choice between the two equal weight. Either put the same entries on both brothers' articles or leave them out entirely.

You mean like Nyarly in Monad Mandala when he taunts her with her feelings (”You can never have him”), or Maya having unique lines about wanting to see Tatsuya, or like it saying at the end of each game regardless of choice “so to has her Love retreated to a world beyond her reach”(the reason Tatsuya doesn’t count as all love is unrequited?). I’m not sure how you could not see the above interaction as romantic except you clearly don’t wish too. But for the sake of Ending this argument is I too out “less obvious” and kept “If Maya doesn’t persue him romantically this is also the case, do to him also being in love with her.” Would that be okay with you?

(I’m not sure if it would work though do to ending text , so I may look into that but for now the issue would be solved)

Fine by me. Nice talking to you.

Good talking to you as well.

At least we are keeping it civil. Ok so the choice of All Love Is Unrequited is optional but still worth mentioning. Even then as I noted the game clearly has more with Tatsuya than Katsuya.

Let’s focus on top one.

If plot relevant interactions are what makes an Implied Love Interest, then how isn't Maya also Jun's Implied Love Interest? He does plenty in the way of trying to save her. In the game itself, there are no "default options" for Tatsuya to take, and Eternal Punishment never even addresses Tatsuya's previous choice of love interest, let alone bothers to retcon it. Nowhere, ever, has it been stated that Tatsuya's previous choice of love interest "doesn't count" or "didn't happen" because he was in love with Maya all along. Not to mention the fact that it's been stated on TV Tropes and the Megaten wiki that there are some very well-circulated interviews implying that Jun is the implied canon option for Innocent Sin, and that Kaneko believes him to be the most fitting choice within the context of that game. I have no problem with Maya being called the Implied Love Interest for Eternal Punishment because she is, but when you try to apply that to Innocent Sin, you're willfully ignoring the content of the game and Word of God to create a nonexistent retcon to justify Tatsuya's interest in her in Eternal Punishment for convenience.

Kaneko wouldn’t be word of god, Satomi would. Kaneko would be more word of Saint Paul. While Satomi aproves the ship (which he usually does all), he never seems to sway from His opinion of Maya. To date he has only confirmed Tatsuya having feelings for Maya. Game wise it is his interaction with Maya that kicks off the second game. Ep seems to work off the assumption Maya was the was the choice, because it is highly unlikely he would have done some of the things he did if he romanced Lisa or Jun in the last game.

Further more comparing Juns relationship to Maya is like comparing apple to oranges it just makes no sense.

That so? Kaneko's word on it is touted as Word of God here and on the Wiki, and I've never seen anyone else disagree with it. And, on that note, if Satomi approves of every ship from Innocent Sin (his own personal favorite notwithstanding), that completely invalidates the entire point of having an Implied Love Interest in the first place. There's no choice in Innocent Sin that you have to choose that sways towards her. If anything (and I'll be more than happy to provide caps/quotes/whatever for you), Jun and Tatsuya's relationship gets the most detail and exposition, not least by Maya herself.

And so what if it is his interaction with her that sets off Eternal Punishment? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure before she actively began pursuing him, he was trying to prevent her from regaining her memories, much like he was trying to do with all his other remaining teammates. And if you're going to try and defend that argument by saying he was specifically trying to protect her, then it's really funny that you consider Jun's relationship with Maya different, because, didn't he literally start a cult and target his childhood friends to avenge her? Didn't he also swear to protect Maya?

Not that it matters, because no matter which way you want to spin it, there's absolutely nothing concrete that proves Innocent Sin was ever retconned and the creators have said that the player is the one who determines the canon romance, but what exactly wouldn't Tatsuya have done if he had romanced anyone else?

In no way does Jun get any more explanation than Lisa or Maya that’s completely false. Kaneko is the artist not the main writer. The main writer is word of god as they hold control over the plot. Satomi was the main writer and as stated has openly akbowelged that he had Tatsuya and Maya in mind writing it. Just because he approves all ships doesn’t mean he didn’t have one in mind. Early interviews with him have him admitting that basically the only reason he included the Jun romance was to cash in on the Yaoi fan base rather than anything serious. It was was always Kaneko who seemed to prefer Jun, but again he’s the artis not the writer. Gorge Lucus would be word of god for Star Wars not the guy who design s the costumes and sets.

His desire to protect Maya in particular is the main reason Persona 2 kicks off(she’s the only reason he regains his memories). This goes back to Satomi showing a special connection between the two, even two the point their persona’s have deep connection to each other. As for comparing Jun and Tatsuya’s relationship to Maya: Satomi has stated Jun admires Maya, while Tatsuya has confirmed romatic feelings twords her. Both of those are two different things.

If you’re wondering what Tatsuya wouldn’t have done you may want to go back and look because the game is full of them. For example he wouldn’t have kissed Maya if he had romanced someone in IS.

There is no indication you have to lean twords any character, however the plot makes more sense if Maya was chosen. The same with EP as it’s pretty clear it takes place after IS. Both games are different parts of one story from different perspectives and at the center of the story is Tatsuya and Maya, not Tatsuya and Lisa or Tatsuya or Jun.

I know exactly who Kaneko and Satomi are, I'm just not of the opinion that it matters when Satomi has literally stated that the player is the canon determinant, which means that your retcon is false and holds no bearing. This is your conjecture, based on Satomi saying he likes a particular pairing, immediately followed by "but the player can choose what they want." This isn't hard to understand.

...Right. Like I literally already said, the "protection" thing proves nothing when there's literally another character who tries to protect Maya and has no romantic interest in her whatsoever. This is not in and of itself proof of romantic attraction.

And ohhh, a special connection between Tatsuya and Maya, huh? Like when Maya calls Jun and Tatsuya doppelgangers, right? Or when she literally pulls Jun back from the brink of disappearing by telling Jun that Tatsuya would be alone without him, right?

(MAYA: If you disappeared, you'd leave Tatsuya all alone! JUN: ....okay.... TATSUYA: ...*flicks lighter* JUN: Tatsuya... ^ Here's the exchange, in case my word isn't good enough for you.)

And on the subject of connected Personas, you mean like Tatsuya and Jun, right? You know, the whole Vulcanus/fire/lighter and Chronos/time thing? Or maybe Hermes and Apollo, who very famously exchanged the lyre and caduceus in that one myth, right? You mean like Jun, who can sense what Tatsuya's Persona is feeling, right? I'm on the right track here with all of this, right???

Seems like Satomi put a lot of thought and plot-relevancy into this yaoi cash-grab.

But none of that matters, right? Because it doesn't suit your personal view of canon.

"The game is full of them" is not an answer and doesn't explain anything. And why wouldn't he have been able to kiss Maya, you know, when she's the last remaining fragment of the world he knew? Having romanced someone previously doesn't preclude him from falling for someone else, especially when he doesn't have anyone anymore. That seems to be the interpretation the games were going for, since they never retconned the previous romances, anywhere, despite having ample opportunity to do so. He would never have even come into contact with her if she had not personally sought him out.

Dude, no one said that Eternal Punishment doesn't take place after Innocent Sin. No one even said that the Implied Love Interest for EP wasn't Maya (or at least I certainly didn't), but she's not for Innocent Sin, no how matter how much you conjecture about how it makes sense to you. And if there's no indication in Innocent Sin, and there's no Word of God saying that the other romances didn't count, why are you trying to push the idea that it is? If, as Satomi says, all the relationships are canon, there's a universe where Maya is the canon romance, and two where she's not. That's the bottom line.

Again Satomi didn’t say all romance is canon, he said you’re free to choose. What he did say though is Maya was the romance he had in mind when he wrote both games. That literally makes her the Implied Love Interest.

It’s not about what other romances don’t count it’s who fits the bill of love interest in the plot, even if they are not. You can choose other romance choices but that doesn’t change the fact The plot was written with Maya in mind. You seem to be overlooking that fact, there is word of god for Tatsuya having feelings for only one person and that’s Maya. Everything so far has been from Word of God While you have either used is from Kaneko or you’re own opinion.

The bottom line is this: the plot was Written with Maya as the romance option. Tatsuya only has confirmed canon feelings for Maya. Both of those make Maya the Implied Love Interest. You can choose other options(I have chosen Lisa every time I play), and but May is the Implied by plot and word of god.

I've never seen any interview where Satomi says he ever confirmed Maya as the canon romance for Innocent Sin, and you've presented literally no other arguments to me besides that one, while I've shelled out as much evidence as I could, and I'd be willing to provide more, which you just ignore when I do. I have no stake in arguing about whether or not she was the Implied Love Interest in Eternal Punishment. This is your conjecture. Not mine. You feel she would have been the most "sensible" love interest, but I've seen no evidence to back this up (besides the fact that Satomi personally prefers her, which I already know.)

If you're gonna be a stickler for Satomi's feelings about the characters, then I give you:

"SATOMI: He likes him. If Tatsuya asked, "Do you like me?" Jun would say, "I like you!" KANEKO: Tatsuya would ask, "Do you like me?" SATOMI: I think he'd ask like that. KANEKO: I think he'd say something like, "What do you think of me?" And then Jun would say, "I like you!" SATOMI: If Jun said something like that, he would turn away and seem happy. KANEKO: Who would? SATOMI: Tatusya would. "

And you still, still won't acknowledge the fact that there was no retcon of the romance. None. Nowhere, in any of his interviews from around the time of these games' release to the present day.

You have yet to provide any type of Word of God while I haven geven nothing but what Satomi has said in interviews. It’s not that Satomi prefers Maya it’s that he wrote the plot of both games with her in mind. The fact that she’s the only one he confirms Tatsuya has feelings for helps as well. The official guide goes further and states Jun and Lisa’s feelings of one sided.

What retcon are you talking about? if it’s about EP then it wouldn’t be Retcon it would be Cutting Off Branches. Again none of what I’ve said has been my conjecture. I’ve been telling what Satomi has said because it’s starting to seem you don’t know.

Laconic dosnt work for Implied Love Interest in games with multiple romance choices(as seen in the examples), it’s usually which option the writer leans on.

Read my comment first, because clearly you didn't.

You're just ignoring what I'm saying at this point.

you mean you’re first comment about jun having as much interaction? Again the writer wrote the story the story with Maya in mind. The writer confirmed Tatsuyas feelings for Maya and the guide book stated Jun and Lisa as one sided. So it dosnt matter how many moments he had with Jun or Lisa. That doesn’t stop them from being able to choose them if we want to.

I’m not ignoring anything it’s that you have yet to prove any fact to back up your argument. Not helped by the fact that word of god has literally disputed everything you said.

Dude. I've literally supplied rebuttal after rebuttal to all of your arguments, and you kept on repeating the same spiel about an interview that I've never seen, or heard anyone else mention, ever. The burden of proof falls on you. I've already sent you direct quotes about Satomi's thoughts on Jun's relationship with Tatsuya, and asked you to show me this interview. You just expect me to take you on your word, without you actually supplying any physical proof. You're wasting my time.

I’m wasting your time? any of what I said has been from old interviews or guides some of which are not hard to find. Here I can give quotes as well if you wish.

Q: Are his feelings towards Maya love?

A: Yes. Maya was Tatsuya's first love. Normally, time would pass and that would develop into feelings of romantic love towards other women, but in Tatsuya's case, that first love was a big sister figure that he couldn't protect, so those feelings towards Maya still trail on. She is in a way his soulmate. My feeling is that it is the most important for him to see her smiling happily nearby.

This is from another

Q: Was the relationship between Maya and Tatsuya planned?

A: Yes actually. The relationship between the two was always at the center of the two games. Tatsuya has a bit of a sister complex. (laughs)

This is a relationship chart from the guide Characters with one-sided loves:

Elly -> Piercy Mark -> Maki Lisa -> Tatsuya Jun -> Tatsuya Katsuya -> Maya

The interview youre talking about was done partially in jest. So again signs point to Maya And you have yet to make a rebuttal.

Sooooo...when were you gonna post the full quote? I mean, since you took the time out to cherry-pick the parts of it that supported your argument.

"Q: Are his feelings towards Maya love?

A: In a way, yes. Maya was Tatsuya's first love, but even so, because it happened when he was 8 years old, his feelings were more like the admiration of an older sister. Normally, time would pass and that would develop into feelings of romantic love towards other women, but in Tatsuya's case, that first love was a big sister figure that he couldn't protect, so those feelings towards Maya still trail on. Therefore, while he has special feelings for Maya, he doesn't look at her as an eligible woman. Specifically, he probably decided on his own that it would be disrespectful to date her. My feeling is that it is the most important for him to see her smiling happily nearby." - https://web.archive.org/web/20090404040824/http://www.chthonian.net:80/persona/batsu/characters/tatsuya.html

I think it's important for an argument to have integrity when it's posted, and you clearly cherry-picked the parts of that answer you liked, and completely cut out where Satomi says that Tatsuya admires her like a big sister, and that he doesn't actually find her dateable? Or what about the part where the author literally says that Maya's romantic preference is as malleable as Tatsuya's, because she can choose to reciprocate Katsuya's feelings over Tatsuya's?

"Q: Does she like Katsuya? Or does she like Tatsuya?

A: That's up to the player. Since Maya represents the player, if that person likes Katsuya, then Maya likes Katsuya. And if the player prefers Tatsuya, then that means she will fall for Tatsuya. If I were Maya, I'd pick Tatsuya. But Big Brother is a really great guy...I'm sorry...you know. *laugh* But since Maya has the "big sister" mentality going on in Tsumi, if she did this and that with Tatsuya, it would be kind of awkward, but in Batsu I don't think she has that problem." - https://web.archive.org/web/20160731112838/http://chthonian.net:80/persona/batsu/characters/maya.html

Not to mention the part where he literally says the two of them dating in Innocent Sin would be awkward? I only ever said that Maya being an Implied Love Interest wouldn't work in Innocent Sin, and, apparently, the author agrees with me.

I couldn't find anything besides an old Game FA Qs thread from 2009 calling Lisa and Jun's options one-sided. And you do know that sister-complexes aren't always romantic or sexual, right?

All I've gathered from this argument is that Tatsuya, at best, experienced some sort of puppy love for Maya that never really turned into anything quite romantic, and even so, in Innocent Sin, they're not much interested in dating each other anyway (isn't Maya also a workaholic who doesn't care to date?). And that, more importantly, you...edited a quote to suit your purposes? The quote from the interview I gave you was excerpted, not edited, it's readily available, and you clearly know about it anyways. I had to go find these quotes on archived webpages.

As for that chart, I can't find it anywhere, even on the archived webpages.

honestly I was more curious if you would would look it up(if you didn’t I wasn’t going to correct you) but hey thanks for the laugh. I’m willing to agree there was no implied love interest in IS. However be warned if you add Jun back as the Implied Love Interest as you have in the past I will remove it, because it’s about as true as Maya and Lisa.

I will make the reverts to the agreed terms. If you’re interested in the guide it’s the persona world guide, you can probably buy it on eBay. I wouldn’t though most of the stuff doesn’t fit canon(some of the other relationship charts don’t add up). I was just kinda curious how far you’d go.....

Good talking