Discussion Characters / ASongOfIceAndFireHouseTargaryen

Reine is French for Queen, and Reina is Spanish for Queen.

Ah, excellent. Then the page should reflect that.

Everyone who says that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna either hated him fiercely (like Robert) or were babies/weren't even born yet at the time of the alleged events in question. Bran and Dany only heard from second-hand sources, all of whom suffer heavy bias. Bran was not even a thought in Eddard's or Catelyn's minds at the time of Lyanna's "abuction," making him hardly an authority on the subject, and Dany knows next to nothing about Rhaegar.

Let's first examine Robert's angry claim. The exchange in question says:

" "And Rhaegar . . . how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?"[...] Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert's thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. " (AGOT pg. 112-113)

Eddard's narration here outright states that he has repeatedly tried to argue with Robert about his motivation for revenge, and no good has ever come of it. Never once does Eddard's narration, outside of a conversation with anyone, say that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Only Robert and those who have listened to his claims without evidence claim that Rhaegar was a rapist. Everyone else speaks fondly of him and say he was a good man. And the exchange about the sacking of King's Landing and the murder of the Targaryen children that's filled with hidden meaning:

" "Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him again. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."

"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest."

"The Others take your honor!" Robert swore. "What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon's honor!"

"You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. " (AGOT 115-116)

Maybe the lies in question are referring to something else. Maybe Eddard knew about Varys' Aegon scheme brought to light in ADWD, but it's not likely. And if that was it, he would have no reason to think back on Lyanna's last words in that moment. There's some secret bewteen Lyanna and Ned that Robert knows nothing about, and it pertains to Rhaegar, as well as Robert's revenge. From the quote, the heaviest and most likely conclusion we can draw is that Ned is playing along with Robert's assertions when he mentions Robert "avenging" Lyanna. Another interpretation is that Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon is true and Ned has to keep it a secret for Jon's sake. One interpretation does not by any means contradict the other.

The only time anyone with any authority claims Rhaegar raped Lyanna in the quotes in question, it's Robert speaking, who had no proof and wasn't even there. And Eddard argues with him or bitterly brushes the conversation aside. So the claims that Rhaegar raped Lyanna don't have to be directly contradicted. They have to be proven first, and no reliable source ever accomplished that. Therefore, the character index should reflect the ambiguity of the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation and not objectively buy into one version of events or the other. Both should be acknowledged before a character is called a rapist in his character sheet.

I'm not trying to argue about theories. That can be discussed on fan message boards or the WMG of this site. That is what the WMG page is for. I am only saying we need to stop adding fan theories to these pages. And yes, this is a fan theory. It is technically proven by the quotes I provided, the companion material to the books, the show, the companion material to the show, and the fact that there is no contrary belief expressed in the text.

If you think there's a chance that it might be revealed that Rhaegar didn't kidnap and rape Lyanna (as the books and companion material indicate without offering any alternatives) then that's great. I'm not going to argue with you. But that theory shouldn't have a place in these pages until the books provide that evidence.

If I am wrong about there being no solid evidence that Rhaegar didn't commit these crimes, then provide the quotes.

That's the problem: there is no solid evidence that he didn't commit rape... any more than there is evidence that he did. Seriously: where is the physical evidence that Rhaegar actually committed either kidnap or rape? Tell me exactly what "bed of blood" means? Or, how Rhaegar to get from A to B fast enough to have raped Lyanna and then met his death at the Trident while she was still suffering the physical effects of rape (as Robert seems to have convinced himself it's what that means)?

Yes, he had Lyanna in his custody for whatever reason... but we only have, at root, Robert's word for what he did while she was there — or why he had her. But, what we don't have is proof positive that she was taken without her permission. She was taken without Robert, Ned's and her father's permissions, sure. And, in Westeros, that probably does equate to "kidnap", regardless of what the girl thinks of the situation, thanks to the fact that girls' rights to themselves aren't as solid as their male kin over them are. Also, whatever she and Rhaegar did together would have also been without their permission, too. And, classifiable as "sex without permission and therefore technical rape", even if she gave hers. This is the problem: when might makes right and a women's rights are subservient to her male kin and what they say about something can go only so long as they can back their words up with swords... what counts as "rape" can differ to what we'd count as rape. Deliberate Values Dissonance.

Ned had reservations throughout his text on this topic from the very start of the books — for all we know, he may have wanted his sister back to yell at her for being suicidally, stupidly live-for-the-moment, not simply because "kidnap-rape"... There was no way this type of escapade could work out well without somebody having to clean the mess up: and, that'd have to be brother dearest — which he was trying to do. He... doesn't seem to be as wroth at Rhaegar as Robert is (mainly because he's not denying to himself that Lyanna might have a hand in what happened). By quite an order of magnitude: he comes across as pretty resigned to his sister's "wolf's blood" ways.

All we have is hearsay on both sides, thanks to Lyanna and Rhaegar being dead. And, Robert is clinging to the Distressed Damsel trope about her for all he's worth... and denying her any agency whatsoever doing it.

The whole point about their story is that the main players in the crucial events are almost all dead, leaving rumour and hearsay: Robert, Eddard, Lyanna, the members of the Kingsguard who were actually with her and Rhaegar (Barristan wasn't: but, he knew those men and their orders — as well as he knew Rhaegar) and even Rickard Stark are no more. The only eyewitness left to the whole mess is Howland Reed.

I'm not "for" Rhaegar, nor do I ship the RxL ship (no point: it's torpedoed by death, even if it was a thing and not just a means for Lyanna to get away from her arranged marriage). I think he was idiotic for not thinking straighter and handing Lyanna back to her family post haste. Also, for not moving faster to depose his father. But, I'm leery of trusting Robert's side of things too much, as well. And, I'm also not one for disregarding the possible other side in he-said-she-said situations, either. The books are making it clear that, for this, there very much is another side. Murky though it is.

For contrast: compare with Alys Karstark. Technically (using the same rules), she's been kidnapped and raped when she was "forced" into marriage with Sigorn — even though she's the one who ran off and jumped at the means to put a spanner in her "uncles'" works. Because none of her male kin have had a say in this. The only person giving an air of legitimacy to her marriage? The closest thing to a Stark liege lord left in the North: Jon Snow. She'd spin it as "getting away from a marriage that'd wind up with me dead and the family holdings given to the wrong branch" — they'd spin it as "kidnap, forced marriage and rape: not legitimate". The main difference is... they don't know what's happened yet. And, are not in a position to start marching to get her back.

There can't be physical evidence because these are fictional characters in a novel series.

All I'm asking for are quotes from the novel series that explicitly state that Rhaegar didn't or might not have done the things he is accused of. Fan conjecture isn't helpful. So far as I can see, there are quotes from the characters and the companion material that states Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. But there aren't any for the opposing view fans are insisting on. If I'm wrong, post the quotes and not the theorizing.

I'm not trying to discuss or debate whether or not it will be revealed that it isn't the truth. That doesn't matter in the main articles. What matters is what is currently in the canon.

As for Ned not being angry at Rhaegar, he also doesn't express any form of anger with Aerys for burning his father alive and strangling his brother to death. Should we add that Aerys is likely innocent of those crimes despite the fact that characters who dislike Aerys say otherwise? No. But maybe if people want to, they can discuss it in WMG or fan message boards.

Yeah, of course I meant it totally literally. There would be no reason for me to use metaphor, at all. No.

Saying "there is probably another side to the story" is not a WMG, when we've been shown bits of the other side of the story. Granted, we've not been shown bedroom scenes, but we've seen enough of Lyanna to at least work out that the helpless little Damsel in Distress who would let herself be passively taken and raped for a good ten months, possibly just more than a whole year, without trying to get away during the constant moving (or managing to drop breadcrumbs as to where she is, at the very least)... Is total bollocks, and a fantasy on Robert's end.

Think of her niece. Think what would happen to any poor idiot who tried it on with her. If lucky, they'd get kneed in the groin as she takes for the hills. If unlucky... say hello to Needle, the nearest rock, a fruit knife... whatever. Even the Hound has to keep a constant watch on the girl as he tries taking her from A to B. And, she succeeds in getting away from him in the end. Now, call me daft, but who does Ayra get compared to constantly? By people who knew Lyanna?

Who does Bran see bullying (and pwning) her brothers in the Weirwood via the weirwood tree?

Who showed spunk during the tourney at Harrenhal... And, told her brother at some point that she didn't want Robert as a husband, mainly because he would never prove faithful and she was convinced he'd grow tired of her?

And, who "suddenly" goes missing with a handsome Prince who just so happened to show interest, just when the wedding plans with Robert were getting very imminent... (Said Prince, however, was an idiot to show interest in her, though: if he so badly wanted other children, there were politically safer girls to pick: sob story or not. And, double the idiot for keeping her for all those months.)

There's nothing WMG about any of these hints that something is fishy about the official version. We don't have a clue what actually happened, but there is enough to cast a lot of doubt... even if you don't particularly wear Shipping Goggles.

Yeah: Rhaegar is so totally at fault for forcefully kidnapping a reluctant, Shrinking Violet of a perfect girl-child who had no idea about what was happening. And, as is likely, the sex that happened? So totally rape, because her official fiancée (who won the rebellion) says it was — mainly because it was without his or her father's permission. He said; she doesn't seem to have got the chance to explain to any of her family before the Mad King went ballistic. Or, at least, may have been waiting for a decent time that... didn't happen (now that, is a guess: thank you — but, turning up with an acknowledged, bastard Targaryen and asking Daddy to break the wedding off as the result of Defiled Forever? Is one possible way she may have been hoping to get out of it: it's a known method used in the past...).

Personally, I don't care if he had her without her family's permission. That's a given. We also don't know if she gave hers. But, the fact that this Spirited Young Lady hung around him for long enough to potentially get pregnant and have a child? Sorry: there's more to this picture. So stating in the pages that there is an alternate (if not several) explanation of events? Is not a WMG. As it's in the text. What event in the books hasn't had alternate takes?

If we're "shown bits of the other side of the story" where are the quotes for that? Where are the quotes of any character or any material related to the novels that show this "other side"?

"we've seen enough of Lyanna to at least work out that the helpless little Damsel in Distress who would let herself be passively taken and raped for a good ten months, possibly just more than a whole year, without trying to get away during the constant moving (or managing to drop breadcrumbs as to where she is, at the very least)... Is total bollocks"

There is nothing in the text to suggest that Lyanna didn't try to escape or that she "let" herself be kidnapped and raped. I don't know why you assume that there is.

"Think of her niece. Think what would happen to any poor idiot who tried it on with her. If lucky, they'd get kneed in the groin as she takes for the hills. If unlucky... say hello to Needle, the nearest rock, a fruit knife... whatever."

Arya is held prisoner multiple times. At Harrnehal she enslaved. The Brotherhood hold her prisoner and plan to sell her. The Hound kidnaps her and plans to sell her as well. She fights. She tries to run away. She tries to leave bread crumbs. It doesn't work. She's disarmed and held prisoner anyway.

I don't see how Arya is evidence for what happened with Lyanna. What we need here are quotes that puts Lyanna's situation into question or refutes it all together.

I've explained to you in PM why quoting is a little not a thing on my end thanks to 1) books are on Kindle, 2) laptop and 3) insufficient table space of a height that doesn't kill my back and wrists (and, with my condition, I do not wish to wave a red rag at my fatigue and fibromyalgic tendencies, thank you very much). Typing one-handed and risking flinging either laptop or Kindle around as I find the sections for you? Not going to happen.

You have a memory and Google: use them yourself. Also: Theres No Such Thing As Notability.

About Arya: she continued fighting every inch of the way (including in Harrenhal, notwithstanding her fearing herself turning into a mouse). And, she did, eventually, get away even from Harrenhal using wits and circumstance. She got away from the Brotherhood. Straight into the Hound's hands, true. But, she was getting clear of them off her own bat.

Each horrible situation Arya got into, she fought every inch of the way either directly or indirectly as much as possible no matter how overpowered in numbers and strength she was at any given point, and often did slip away from them as a result — even if it took a few weeks. Usually into yet another horrible situation: but, in the Riverlands at that time, there were no "good" situations to be found. And, leaving too many breadcrumbs would be suicidal, given that Lannister men were actively hunting for her. So... she actually tried not to, if you care to remember. She only pulled the "Stark from Winterfell" card when her cover was already blown and had the hope (vain though it was) that the once-Stark retainers in the Brotherhood would help her get home/ to her mother.

And, I've told you: the text doesn't go into quotes in the way you're pounding on it to do in the specific areas you want quotable quotes on: at no point are we baldly told "Rhaegar didn't force himself on Lyanna" any more than we have anything but other character's hearsay that he did. Nor do we know for sure whether 1) he scooped her up out of her tent suddenly one night on a white charger or 2) if she skulked off to find him in the hopes of getting whisked away to parts unknown, evading her father's men the whole time. Or something else. Because. No. Direct. Quotes.

We've got fractured glances at character and memories of others to go on. Stitching them together isn't an automatic WMG zone, you know: it's basic comprehension.

The compare-and-contrast with Arya is also relevant: it'd be a basic exercise in comprehension for English Lit when doing GCSE, for crying out loud. We are fed the comparison that many times in the books, it cannot be accidental and trying to write it off as irrelevant is disingenuous in the extreme.

Since you can't provide quotes that support your position, then I guess there's nothing left to discuss. If/When George Martin provides evidence of Rhaegar not kidnapping and raping Lyanna, then it will be appropriate to add it to the articles. Until then, we should keep theories to WMG and message boards and go with the current canon.

Also, you should re-read those chapters of Arya's. You have clearly forgotten what happened to her.

No, I haven't forgotten what happened to Arya, thank you very much. Question: did she remain with the same "captors" (as, for some... the picture was rather more complex than a simple "kidnap") for more than six months at a time? And, was it always by being a passive little parcel? That little girl managed to be a hot potato — granted, one who kept switching from the roaster, into the deep fat fryer and into the fire: but, a hot potato, nevertheless. And, she isn't even full-grown. Lyanna was both older and larger.

The problem with taking Robert's quotes as the gospel truth on what happened, that being that 1) Rhaegar kidnapped and 2) repeatedly raped Lyanna so 3) her father and brother marched to get answers and 4) were wrongfully killed... is that his whole rebellion hinged on "the Targaryens have overstepped their rights as liege lords and turned into monsters: they killed the Lord Protector of the North and his heir, as well as forcefully taken their daughter and sister, my fiancée, to act as a concubine against her wishes". If the picture is not that simple, but was kicked off by Lyanna appealing to her liege lords to protect her from a wedding she didn't wish to undertake (and the whole thing going south because Aerys was off his rocker and decided on killing before waffling, throwing politics up and/or reaching for reparations — and Rhaegar, possibly, starting an affair with her)... then the whole rebellion was iffy, as even highborn girls have the right to appeal to their lords (although, they're less likely to hear the time of day than their brothers and fathers are). And, he would be just as monstrous (and oath-breaking) as they were supposed to be (in his picture of things) by rebelling in the first place.

If Lyanna appealed to Rhaegar in the capacity of a petitioner seeking her liege lord's ruling... then the most of what should have happened was... getting him to depose his father for murdering people seeking answers over Lyanna's vanishing as reparation for those murders. See the problem? Failing that being a palatable option, there was always the "kill him, too: but, put his kid on the throne as a puppet king" one. The "kill them all" one, however... was a bridge too far (even though Robert didn't actually order that — at the time). Unless he could convincingly pull the "I (and/or my rights as a Lord) was badly wronged and sought to save my bride" card to justify the whole thing going belly up.

Robert has a strong, vested interest in stressing How Wrong They All Were (not to mention — doesn't really want to think of himself as being even slightly wrong on this). And, others have vested interests in not protesting the official line too much, even if they strongly doubt whole chunks of it. Stating that the picture is probably not that simple, that characters hold doubts and that some of the visions via the weirwood trees paint interesting alternate character interpretations and cast a, potentially, different light on actions taken are not WMGs.

Going the whole hog and saying "Lyanna and Rhaegar so totally loved each other and she ran off to be with him and everything went to hell during which time she got pregnant and then Jon was born and she died" using all the hints dropped in the text? That is WMG territory and shouldn't be on the main pages.

In short: on the topic of Lyanna and Rhaegar... Robert is about as trustworthy a source as Cersei is when it comes to how brilliant she is.

The above is just paragraph after paragraph of speculation with no quotes or canon.

I think it's probably time for you to ask the forum threads. I don't seee this discussion going anywhere.

I agree that the discussion isn't going anywhere. But it doesn't even seem like the discussion even needs to continue since Euodiachloris isn't providing any textual evidence to support their stance.

Fine: I shall cripple my back over a few days and run myself into a four-day bed rest just for you... Give me those few days...

This is going to suck — I hate having to to be dizzy-sick constantly, but it's going to happen. -_- And, before you get at me for using hyperbole for effect: nope. This is the truth and what usually happens when I try concentrating like you want me to in solid blocks in an environment not set up for the task.