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    Original post 
Cool Loser is a Informed Attribute trait, the supposed loser is actually cool. However both "cool" and "loser" are rather ill defined concepts so there is not a lot of consistency in the examples according to the wick check.

A name like Hollywood Unpopular or Hollywood Uncool would get the idea across of attempting to portray uncoolness but failing at it, unless "Hollywood X" is something this website is moving away from.

  • ZCE/Pothole 21/50 (42%)
  • Cool with "uncool" trait 11/50 (22%)
  • Correct 8/50 (16%)
  • Defines loser as not winning 3/50 (6%)
  • Others 8/50 (16%)

Wick check:

    ZCE/Pothole 21/ 50 (42%) 

1. Protagonists

2. Western Animation

  • Daria averts or even inverts this—Jane is ticked at both her boyfriend Tom and her best friend Daria when they kiss, but forgives Tom fairly quickly, accepting his apology and the fact that their relationship was on the rocks anyway. She is considerably more hurt by Daria's betrayal, though, which takes most of a TV movie to repair. Jane had spent some time afraid about some Unresolved Sexual Tension going on between Daria and Tom and had been acting rather neurotic about it. The episode where Daria and Tom kissed started off with Jane forcing Daria to help her dye her hair and then blew up when it turned into a disaster, yelling that Daria did it on purpose to steal Tom even though Daria repeatedly stated she wasn't any good at dying hair. After apologizing about her paranoia and moving past her suspicions, Jane got thrown through a loop when Daria admitted she kissed Tom after she stated she had no intentions of going after him. Jane's hurt came from fearing Daria was planning to steal Tom, assured she wasn't, and then told to her face that Daria made out with him the very day after they settled the matter.

3. Loserz

4. Spoof Aesop

  • Daria is prone to giving sarcastic summaries of an episode's morals, even if there is an actual moral buried within an episode.
    Daria: Yeah. Look, why don't you just come back with us?
    Jane: I don't know. Some kind of dumb-ass notion about seeing this through, I guess. Anyway, it's just another two weeks and then we'll be back at school! ...Wait, what's my point?
    Daria: That life sucks no matter what, so don't be fooled by location changes.

5. Locke & Key

6. Odd Friendship

  • Marty and Doc in the Back to the Future trilogy are as close as a old scientist and a teenage Cool Loser can be. Perhaps Marty sees Doc as a grandfather figure?

7. Gravity Falls Rule 63

%% * Cool Loser

8. Western Animation

  • Daria:
    • During the first three seasons Jane Lane shipped her older brother Trent with her best friend Daria. Of course, at the same time, she also takes great amusement in watching Daria get embarrassed in front of her brother.
    • In "Write Where It Hurts", Daria's last story has her sister Quinn married to Jaime, one of her three constant suitors, while in another story Jesse is apparently dating Jane. Of course, yet another story had Jane/Kevin in a Graduate Homage Shot (with Kevin as Elaine), so these probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.

9. Total Blended Drama

10. Camp Rock

%%* CoolLoser: Mitchie and Caitlyn

11. The Masquerade Will Kill Your Dating Life

  • Just ask Cally Stone of Dark Oracle about this one. Every potential relationship she has (and most of her friendships) get torpedoed by her attempts at dealing with the comic book that has taken over her life. Conversely, her brother Lance, and his best friend Dizzy, probably wouldn't have dating lives if the comic hadn't forced them together with their respective girlfriends.

12. Made Myself Sad

  • On Daria, Jane comments on Daria's disbelief in a higher power:
    "You know what's bothering you? You're afraid that it's true. That the Quinns of the world fit in so well because something really is looking out for them. Everything's already been decided, they win, you lose, and whatever you do doesn't matter because the end is fixed. So, why even bother?" (Beat) "God, I'm depressed."

13. Hi-Fi RUSH

  • Spiritual Successor:
    • Due to the cel-shading, character action gameplay and a goofy, Cool Loser protagonist that likes to show off, many have seen similarities to this and Viewtiful Joe, another game overseen by Shinji Mikami.

14. Live-Action TV

  • The Secret World of Alex Mack: Played semi-straight with the Mack sisters. Older sister Annie is the textbook smart one, often called a super-genius, and while Alex is average or Cool Loser rather than pretty or popular, she has several friends while Annie has none. They bicker a lot, and Alex is often jealous of Annie's success, but they can't ever stay on seriously bad terms; Annie is Alex's Secret-Keeper and the only one who comes close to understanding how Alex's powers work.

15. Hearing Voices

  • Discussed in Daria:
    Jake: Hey, kiddo, how was your day?
    Daria: Fine. I heard a new voice inside my head and Kevin stole a test, so everyone's getting an "F."
    Jake: That's great!
    Helen: (holds hand over phone) Daria, you were just kidding about the voice, right?
    Daria: Relax...we don't have to answer that.
    • Also comes up in "Lucky Strike":
    Ms. Li: (over P.A.) Students of Lawndale High, your attention, please.
    Jane: Is that the voice in my head that tells me to kill and kill again?
    Daria: No. Satan's voice is lower and he has an English accent.

16. Lockie Leonard

%% * Cool Losers: Lockie and Egg.

17-19. BoJack Horseman - The Main Group's Social Circles

  • Cool Kid-and-Loser Friendship: Played With. She's most definitely this with Allison Flierl, the school's resident nerd. However, Allison, judging by comments, is more of a Cool Loser and Penny, while higher in the social hierarchy, is not that popular. After two months and being with the cool kids, Penny eventually denies being friends with her at all, putting the state of their current relationship in question.
  • Friendship Favoritism: While Penny is smart enough to know better than choose sides, she's passive and insecure enough to embrace the relationships that will make her life better and have a perception of life she'd like. This has backfired on her in several occasions:
    • Pre-Time Skip, she was often implied to be good friends with Alison Flierl, the school resident Cool Loser, much to the chagrin of the popular clique like Maddy Ginsburg. Seeing the chances of raising in status fly by, Penny distanced herself from Alison, preferring to hang with Maddy, even neglecting any time spent together with Alison. Post-Time Skip, Penny denies ever being friends with Alison to Maddy as they head to the prom. As they never speak directly neither before or during the prom, it's dubious if they remained in touch, but it's clear they're not as close as they used to be.
  • We Used to Be Friends: With Allison Flierl, the school's Cool Loser. Judging by the conversation Penny has with Maddy after the Time Skip, she would prefer if Allison was never mentioned and denies ever having contact with her.

20. Informed Loner

Compare Cool Loser and Hollywood Dateless.

21.Western Animation

  • The Daria website describes Casa Lane as the house where siblings Jane and Trent "were raised. By each other." It's not entirely true, but their parents are usually off in some foreign country and their older siblings (all moved out by the time the show takes place) are all dysfunctional in some way, leaving Jane and Trent alone to try to stabilize each other. (Trent is older, but Jane is probably the more responsible of the two.)

    Cool with "uncool" trait 11/ 50 (22%) 

1. School Rumble

  • Cool Loser: He's good-looking, strong, athletic and something of a chick magnet in school, but this falls apart because of his antisocial nature, numerous misunderstandings, and sheer idiocy.

2. Falling

  • Cool Loser: Frisk has everything that anyone would look for in a friend. But her fear of magic alienates her from society.

3. Gronk

  • Cool Loser: Dale. Although in her case, it's not so much that she lacks social skills as she lives way out in the sticks. Not exactly uncool, but a reasonable damper to a social life

4. Clone High

  • Cool Loser: Tall, friendly, athletic, fairly handsome-looking, and is the clone of one of the most respected presidents, but not very high on the social hierarchy. If it wasn't for being so awkward and insecure he'd have no trouble winning the respect of his classmates.

5. Persona 5: Sumire Yoshizawa

  • Cool Loser: In spite of being an attractive young woman, an accomplished gymnast and an honor student, most of Kasumi's fellow Shujin students treat her with scorn. This is Justified to some extent: her classmates are jealous because they don’t think she’s talented enough to receive special treatment and the higher ups feel she’s also not bringing the results they need in order to fix the school’s damaged reputation. So apparently talented, but not talented enough

6. World Trigger Tamakoma 2

  • Cool Loser: Inverted. Osamu seems like typical bully pickings—nerdy and awkward—but once his status as a Border agent is revealed, he becomes something of an idol and the school bullies promptly begin avoiding him. '''Inverts this concept as the "cool trait" cancels out the "uncool".

7. My Mental Choices Are...

  • Cool Loser: The Reject Five are attractive students (and Oka is quite wealthy) but they're all targets of ridicule because of a weird personality quirk that keeps them from being popular. In Kanade's case, it's the strange things Absolute Choice makes him do.

8. Soul Eater Spartoi

  • Cool Loser: He started off being one of these, despite being the most skilled human student at DWMA due to his overbearing ego and grandstanding repulsing onlookers. He was seen as loud and annoying despite his skills and had no friends until Tsubaki came to greet him.

10. Danny Phantom Others

  • Cool Loser: Becomes a complete outcast after losing her wealth, to the point of initially having no friends to hang out with and Eating Lunch Alone. This is despite still having her good looks, fashion sense, athletic skills, and social skills. She slowly veers into the Cool Loser archetype after developing a much nicer, more laid-back personality (at least as a high school girl and not putting her villainous side in consideration), but still remains unpopular and shunned, likely because her days as a nasty Alpha Bitch left everyone giving her the cold shoulder.Once mean, and people are not willing to forgive

11. Loser Deity

See also God Is Flawed which can lead to this. Subtrope of Cool Loser, with the "cool" part of being a deity.

    Correct 8/ 50 (16%) 

1. Lady Bird

  • Cool Loser: She is an attractive and strong-willed schoolgirl who nonetheless begins the film on the outside of the popular social scene. Over the course of her senior year, she starts dating people in cooler cliques.

2.Drake & Josh

  • Cool Loser: Especially towards the end of the series, when he loses weight and becomes better looking, on top of maintaining a steady relationship with a pretty girlfriend, a consistent circle of friends, and a prosperous academic career. Even when he's more attractive, charismatic, and successful, he's still treated like a loser by the rest of the cast.

3. Danny Phantom Team Phantom

  • Cool Loser: A classic one, as per usual of teen superheroes; Danny is outgoing, funny, dresses normally, acts normally, is intelligent (although lazy and, as previously mentioned, Book Dumb), and as far as you can tell with the art style, fairly attractive. His only real problems include being a bit awkward with girls and ending up in strange situations in public due to his superhero activity. Yet, for some reason, the entire school seems to treat him like the nerd plague. It could be because Sam and Tucker are highly unpopular, but in real life, he would certainly have more than just two friends, even if he does hang out with two "weird" kids. Admittedly though, his parents aren't doing him any favors either.

4. Tall Girl

  • Cool Loser: Jodi is a rich, attractive, smart, and talented girl who has a caring family, two loyal friends, and three boys falling in love with her. She's still portrayed as a loser who has been bullied since childhood because of her only flaw: she's too tall.

5. X-Men Film Series: X-Men (New Timeline)

  • Cool Loser: In X-Men: Apocalypse, he has a moment of self-deprecation when he calls himself a "total loser," and the rest of the X-Men chuckle with him (and not at him). They barely know Peter, but they are already beginning to like him.

6. The Nostalgia Critic S 12 E 22

  • Cool Loser: In the words of the Critic, many of the supposed losers who are the heroes of this type of movies would be super popular in real life.

7. Tony Zaret

  • Cool Loser: Treated by Jongulo like a cringe, out-of-touch simp. To most viewers, he comes across as a nice, successful family man whose content is at worst a little dorky; but who's overall more successful and happy than Jongulo and co.

8. Single Girl Seeks Most Popular Guy

    Defines loser as not winning 3/ 50 (6%) 

1. PlayStation Access

  • Cool Loser: Dave used to have 0 platinum trophies. And he had 0 problems with that. Because it's so easy to get a platinum from playing a Telltale game, he probably did this intentionally.

2. Jon Moxley

  • Cool Loser: Ambrose is no doubt one of the more entertaining, charismatic superstars on the roster and has put on some hard-hitting, entertaining matches with the likes of Seth Rollins, Wade Barrett and Bray Wyatt... but he didn't win a single PPV match or come out on top of a feud in between the Shield dissolved in June 2014 (or, if you count his time as a singles competitor in The Shield, since Night of Champions 2013, where he beat Kofi Kingston to retain his United States Championship) until Extreme Rules 2015 in April 2015, where he defeated Luke Harper in a Chicago Street Fight. Granted, a few of those PPV losses have been due to being screwed at the end somehow. Only Wyatt really ended their feud clean. Finally, officially, subverted at TLC: Tables, Ladders, and Chairs 2015 when he won the Intercontinental Championship from one Kevin Owens, his first championship since he held the United States Championship while still in the Shield. This was further subverted after he won the WWE Championship and pinned both Roman and Seth clean in the space of the week to retain the title and win the blowoff to The Shield break-up storyline that had been going on for two years.

3. Freaks' Squeele

  • Cool Loser: Not the strongest and the smartest team but they have big heart and defend their friends.

    Others 8/ 50 (16%) 

1. Literature

2. TruthInTelevision.A To C

  • Cool Loser: This is sometimes possible to achieve via a combination of artistic or musical merit with little else redeeming in one's life and a lack of responsibility that is read as being a "bad boy" rather than helpless or pathetic. That said, it doesn't work for most people because they won't be seen as cool bad but rather irresponsible and deserving of shame. Seems genuinely pathetic with a desperate attempt to seem cool

3. Rules of Engagement

4-5. Regular Show Main Characters Both examples seem to be "cool" despite their "loser" traits.

  • Cool Loser: He's not popular amongst the crowd, or super successful, but he's still a cool guy amongst his friends, and the audience.
  • Cool Loser: He's incompetent and incredibly lazy, but has some good style.

6-7. Saved by the Bell: The New Class

  • Contrasting Replacement Character: She replaces Rachel (in the group and as Ryan's Love Interest) but, as lampshaded in-universe, she's her opposite: Rachel was a popular, confident shopaholic, Liz is an insecure Cool Loser who is more interested in sports than fashion.
  • Cool Loser: In early season 5. In "Football & Physics", she has trouble fitting in with the other girls, just because she has different interests. Also, despite being as conventionally pretty as the other girls, she has never been on a date (at least before Ryan) and the others are surprised when two boys are fighting over her.

8. Turn of the Millennium - Live-Action Films

  • Mean Girls.
    • The portrayal of the Ambiguously Gay Cool Losers Janis and Damian illustrates the prevalent attitudes towards LGBT people among teenagers at the time. Regina suspecting that Janis was a lesbian was enough to get her to kick Janis out of her social circle and spread rumors about her sexuality, leading to her present outcast status, while the Plastics list Janis in the Burn Book as a "dyke" (a term that wouldn't be acceptable after 2010) and Damian as "too gay to function". This sort of casual homophobia on their part was shown as a sign of their Alpha Bitch tendencies even in 2004, but characters with such tendencies in 2014 would be portrayed as downright bigoted rather than merely callous, given that nowadays homophobia is seen by teenage girls as roughly on a par with racism, at least in the American Midwest where the film is set. It illustrates how, while tolerance of LGBT people had come a long way from the teen movies of The '80s where such attitudes were often treated as normal and went without comment, full equality and acceptance was still several steps away (this was the year when Massachusetts became the first US state to legalize same-sex marriage, an occasion that sparked controversy and moral panic), and being gay, or even Mistaken for Gay, could make somebody an outcast. Reason for loser status part of Values Dissonance.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 10th 2023 at 5:07:40 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#26: Jun 4th 2023 at 3:03:43 PM

[up]There is a course of action (a rename).

Both 'cool' and 'loser' are broad and somewhat loaded terms so I don't know if a TT would offer more clarity. It might be better to decide what the messy wicks to do than get lost in the weeds of those.

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#27: Jun 4th 2023 at 3:08:54 PM

The issue is that the rename is contingent on the definition, and the trope's definition was incorrect, which is the reason WHY we're in the weeds right now. There can be no progress if the very basis of the trope needs to be clarified.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#28: Jun 4th 2023 at 3:26:22 PM

Yes, similarly to what I previously said about moves to YMMV in the Broken Aesop thread, renaming before determining what counts as a good example is doing things in the wrong order.

Edit: And regarding the OP suggesting renaming, I still stand by what I said in my second post about me being unsure whether the thread creator has the right idea for what this is, especially considering a lot of other folks here (myself included) aren't entirely sure what it is.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 4th 2023 at 6:16:30 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#29: Jun 4th 2023 at 4:16:54 PM

I like to think I have a pretty good handle on it, but that doesn't mean I can think of any non-extreme solutions (I would really, really prefer not to disambig this if there's something else we can do).

The trope is definitely misused, but IDK if that's the fault of the current description since the correct examples would be correct regardless of if this is objective/subjective, an informed attribute, or an intentional character design choice since they all still cover the same basic information: "Loser" character lacks the traits we associate with losers.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 4th 2023 at 7:17:29 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#30: Jun 4th 2023 at 5:49:49 PM

Like I pointed out above, this trope isn't even unrealistic because attractive, well-adjusted, "cool" people do end up a target of bullying for the pettiest of reasons.

See, though, I don't really think "bully victim" and "loser" are synonymous, especially as far as this particular trope goes. It's just about unpopular characters - they don't have to be actively picked on.

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#31: Jun 4th 2023 at 5:54:21 PM

Well, that's true. But usually in media the way you convey a character is "unpopular" is to have them be teased, or at least excluded and looked down upon. Without that element, there's no reason to believe they are unpopular. Also the bully element tends to provide an extra obstacle and a recurring antagonist, so, it's just sort of a common thread even if it's not actually a required element.

In other words, "bully victim" and "unpopular" are not one in the same, but unpopular characters tend to be bullied, and having a character be a bullying victim is a very easy way to convey their status in school.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 4th 2023 at 8:55:30 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#32: Jun 4th 2023 at 7:06:00 PM

[up]

"But usually in media the way you convey a character is "unpopular" is to have them be teased, or at least excluded and looked down upon. Without that element, there's no reason to believe they are unpopular."

That's a lot being wrapped up in there though. It is fully possible for a character to be shown as unpopular without any of that, by virtue of showing who the popular kids are and how this character just doesn't interact with them. Exclusion is not necessarily antagonistic if the characters just don't interact or aren't friends. Again, the looseness of what even constitutes a Loser is why Loser Archetype is an index of other tropes that get associated with being a loser (Bully Magnet, Butt-Monkey, and The Chew Toy are listed) and not a defined trope itself. More than just being unpopular, to me what's important for "a loser" is being pitiful/pitiable which can manifest in a whole host of ways, many of which have little to do with popularity. Just look at the list on Loser Protagonist.

I do agree this concept isn't unrealistic for the different reason that popularity =/= coolness; often what is considered popular/mainstream is presented as actively being uncool depending on the social circle you're looking at. Idk how many stories I've seen that focus on punks, greasers, alt-kids in general who are shown to lead cool but underground / counterculture lives with the protagonist as the wide eyed newcomer / Audience Surrogate to learn about their Hidden Depths. But that isn't a character trope as much as it is a specific narrative.

idk I'm kinda with Synch on this one. I'm not sure if a TT thread would fix the issue here because we're dealing with two terms that are at their core imprecisely defined. Looking at the discussion page, this has been an issue since at least 2011 and going further back to the Archived Discussion, this exact lack of clarity was an issue even then. It has been a flawed and questionable concept from its inception.

If there's an actual non-YMMV trope here, I think it'd have to be developed from scratch seeing as how there's never been a solid foundation for this concept. I don't think there's much to salvage here, though.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 4th 2023 at 10:25:23 AM

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#33: Jun 4th 2023 at 7:29:38 PM

I do get what you're saying with the bullying part, I'm basing my arguments off the media I'm familiar with though and in that the Cool Loser is basically always a bully victim. Granted these are kid shows and bully characters are a staple of kid's shows in general, but I don't disagree that it's possible to show these things without the bullying aspect — it's just such a common way of portraying it that it seems weirder for it to not be present, even if the trope itself doesn't require it.

The whole "Cool is relative" issue is part of why I've been avoiding the subject in my posts. I'm not even sure if coolness is necessary, as the description is more focused on "not lame" rather than "actually cool". The title might be a problem in this case, but only if the issue of defining "coolness" is something people are concerned about. Judging by the wick check, that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Looking at the discussions, it doesn't actually seem like a clarity issue, rather than people touching on the "not actually unrealistic" points I myself noted. Most people seem to understand how the trope works but don't think it makes sense because these two concepts are abstract as is and popularity isn't something that can be distilled into a simple "would be / wouldn't be" formula. To me, it feels less like the trope's definition is unclear, and more like the concept of trying to define an objective popularity hierarchy criteria is inherently flawed and that makes it hard to pin down who is "cool enough" to count.

I hope I'm explaining my thought process correctly. This trope is way more confusing than I'd ever thought. It was always a trope I just sort of accepted as-is, because I'd seen these characters in media all the time and I never really thought much of it. I never thought to try and quantify coolness and loserdom to define the meaning of the trope, because it never even occurred to me that there was something amiss.

Nevertheless, I do think there's a salvageable concept here because the core concept is "underdog protagonist who is not given any flaws that may impact their likability, despite the way they're treated in-universe". It's a way to create a protagonist who is "safe" to root for because they're a genuine badass at best or just sort of generic and vanilla at worst, rather than something potentially unlikeable, such as nerdy or unattractive... while giving them relatable issues in the social hierarchy.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 4th 2023 at 10:32:55 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#34: Jun 5th 2023 at 12:51:43 AM

I kind of wonder if we should just scrap this and disambiguate it, considering the clarity issues date back over a decade based on what was linked to on the discussion page. I feel that amathieu may be right about non-YMMV concepts probably needing to be launched from scratch.

If anyone has any other ideas, I'd like to see a summary of what they are before shutting the clock off. (I just got out of bed, so I wasn't present for the posts after my previous one.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 5th 2023 at 2:56:19 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#35: Jun 5th 2023 at 1:16:48 AM

Yeah, no ideas here unfortunately. I'd still like it if we didn't disambig it, but I'm at a loss for what else we could do. I'm just not fully convinced that this warrants a sledgehammer treatment, but...

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#36: Jun 5th 2023 at 1:51:48 AM

TBH I'm very uncomfortable with this trend to require that trope definitions be "quantifiable". There may be disagreements about the core aspects of this trope but so far I'm not really seeing anyone denying that it's at least a thing recognizable as occurring in fiction, which is the primary requirement for a trope.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#37: Jun 5th 2023 at 1:52:49 AM

[up][up]I still feel that Trope Talk would be the place to hash out ideas that don't involve scrapping it.

[up]If you have any ideas for how to tighten the description/definition, feel free to share them.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 5th 2023 at 5:20:12 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#38: Jun 5th 2023 at 3:56:35 AM

If it helps, here's the oldest version of the page in the Internet Archive, mostly useful for the examples used and how they're written.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#39: Jun 5th 2023 at 4:19:17 AM

[up][up][up]

There may be disagreements about the core aspects of this trope but so far I'm not really seeing anyone denying that it's at least a thing recognizable as occurring in fiction, which is the primary requirement for a trope.

Respectfully, I disagree with you. The primary requirements of a trope page is to identify an actually tropable concept, clearly define it in such a way that others can also identify it, and then collect examples that adequately show this trope in action. This page is currently failing at 2 and 3, given the misuse and conflicting interpretations of what is or isn't an example of this trope. One of the reasons why we yard concepts is because the trope idea itself is fine, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

And I don't know what you mean by quantifiable, but as far as I know, there is no use for a trope page that few people know what it is that's being troped/everyone has a different idea of what it is that's being troped. The reason why we're trying to figure out what "cool" or "loser" means is because the examples reveal disagreement as to what these words mean in relation to the trope/how central they are to the concept. And since no one has questioned the validity of the wick check that pointed out this inconsistent usage, I don't see why we'd dismiss that there is even an issue.

Without a clear remedy to the issue, I just don't see how we keep the page as is. These issues will still exist, as they did more than ten years ago. That's why I'm in favor of a disambig and yard or making it YMMV. If someone else with a better grasp for the non-YMMV idea this is trying to cover wants to take a second stab at it, they can present their version at the TLP. Especially seeing the bare bones start this page had[up], I think it makes even more sense to start over with a clearer direction.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 5th 2023 at 2:16:44 PM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#40: Jun 5th 2023 at 6:01:43 AM

I'm against making this YMMV before determining what does or doesn't count as a valid example. As I said when people proposed making Broken Aesop YMMV without sorting out its definition's clarity issues, taking a course of action that requires wick cleanup before determining whether the wicks can be kept or not is doing things in the wrong order.

I'd still prefer disambiguating and Yarding any salvageable ideas, though Yarding is a free action anyway. In fact, I think I'm currently only willing to put disambiguating on the table because nobody has provided a clear definition to work with if we did anything else.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 5th 2023 at 8:05:32 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#41: Jun 5th 2023 at 7:41:23 AM

[up]Because I see this as pretty similar to Hollywood Nerd, I lean more towards disambig-ing than YMMV (especially if someone plans on taking another crack at the idea later) but if we were to make it YMMV, I'm pretty sure all of the actual examples in the "correct" folder of the wick check would still count as written, since they focus on the perceived incongruity between the in-universe treatment of Character X and the characterization of character X. The "cool with uncool trait" folder wouldn't count because the examples as written all give a plausible in-universe reason as to why this character is treated as a loser.

In terms of a definition: "when a character is treated as a loser in-universe, despite having many positive traits / averting the vast majority of loser traits, to the point that it threatens the Willing Suspension of Disbelief."

Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 5th 2023 at 10:43:19 AM

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#42: Jun 5th 2023 at 8:57:15 AM

[up]OK, now that we have at least one definition to work with if we make this YMMV per the second paragraph of this post, shutting off the clock. Adjusting the definition would be the main focus of the crowner when it's time for one, with making it YMMV and/or renaming it being additional options for what to do if the definition is adjusted (not mutually exclusive with each other), and disambiguating would be a fourth option that would be mutually exclusive with the others.

Whether to rename and/or make this YMMV would only be on the table if the definition is clarified in some way (meaning the options would be phrased as "If the definition is adjusted, [make YMMV/rename]", per what I said about us needing to know which wicks are valid when doing cleanup.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 5th 2023 at 10:59:37 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#43: Jun 5th 2023 at 10:05:40 AM

I'm on the disambig side as well, but a YMMV "socially treated as loser in-universe but the audience thinks they are not" may be workable.

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
#44: Jun 5th 2023 at 10:31:12 AM

The only thing that gives me pause about going to YMMV is that it's the opposite of how the trope is currently defined. In that it's currently an intentional character design choice, not an accident that would lead to it being subjective. I can understand the reason why people want it to be YMMV but I'm not sure I feel comfortable altering the definition of the trope this much to ignore the fact that creators are designing their characters this way with a reason... or at least, that's what the current trope set up would argue. Admittedly I can't exactly prove that all of these examples were intentional, and that we weren't just meant to roll with the unpopularity because it's just how popularity works sometimes.

I do agree, though, that the correct usage would remain correct regardless, maybe with some writing tweaks here and there though. I also agree that the YMMV definition is a viable definition if people don't mind the swap from "intentional design choice" to "a subjective thought the audience has".

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#45: Jun 5th 2023 at 12:08:51 PM

Something similar occurred with Adorkable, which used to be a trope and is YMMV now. The traits are present, likely intentional, but in practice, there was a lot of audience opinion in the entries.

WarJay77 Discarded and Feeling Blue (Troper Knight)
Discarded and Feeling Blue
ElRise I fix my examples all the time from The Dying City (Season 2) Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
I fix my examples all the time
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#48: Jun 6th 2023 at 12:42:38 AM

Something similar occurred with Adorkable, which used to be a trope and is YMMV now. The traits are present, likely intentional, but in practice, there was a lot of audience opinion in the entries.
Well that worked because it was also split from Endearingly Dorky which were In-Universe examples. So I Do think their has to be some objective trope to cover in universe examples.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#49: Jun 7th 2023 at 5:18:18 AM

So, it's been long enough for a crowner, but I'm not sure if we're ready. Are these our options? Disambiguating is mutually exclusive with everything else, but the options other than disambiguating are not mutually exclusive with each other (and two depend on a rewrite happening).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 7th 2023 at 7:18:57 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#50: Jun 7th 2023 at 10:50:33 PM

Since I couldn't get any feedback, crowner hooked.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Trope Repair Shop: Cool Loser
25th Jun '23 11:21:50 PM

Crown Description:

Cool Loser is being renamed and made YMMV (the latter because of this clash between how the work and its audience regard the character), and its definition is being retooled to be for a character who is treated as a loser in-universe, despite having many positive traits and/or averting numerous loser traits. What should Cool Loser's new name be?

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