Discussion History Administrivia / ExampleAsAThesis

\\\'\\\'GundamSEEDDestiny\\\'\\\', the \\\"[[CurbstompBattle Flawless Victory]]\\\"

Now this was posted as an example of a \\\'\\\'Destiny\\\'\\\' [=CMoA=], [[CaptainObvious as you might imagine given the page we\\\'re on.]] Anyway, my initial response post was that most fans instead see it as a DethroningMomentOfSuck. This was based mostly on the fact that I\\\'ve never heard anyone say they \\\'\\\'\\\'liked\\\'\\\'\\\' that ending (SmallReferencePools, I guess). The followup was this:

\\\"Most viewers? Speak for yourself. Fans of Shinn and Durandal hate it, yes. For those of us who are Old Guard fans though, seeing the incredibley self-righteous Shinn and Rey get their respecitve asses handed to them by Athrun and Kira is a thing of beauty. And on top of that, Shinn lives and has to deal with the fact that Athrun, who he spent the entire show looking down on, absolutely \\\'\\\'destroyed\\\'\\\' him.\\\"

That\\\'s a valid point of view. Just to clarify why \\\'\\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\'\\\' wrote what I wrote:

I don\\\'t think this has to be some line drawn between \\\"Old Guard\\\" and \\\"New Guard\\\" fans. I\\\'m \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' a fan of Durandal, or Rey for that matter, though I do like Shinn (and this factors into the [=DMoS=] for me). I like the returning cast, and believe them to have been in the right during the final battle. The issue is

\\\'\\\'\\\'A.\\\'\\\'\\\' The unbelievably one-sided nature of the battle. Kira, the three [[TheScrappy DOM Trooper pilots]] and the \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' take on the Messiah space fortress, its attendant ships (around 30 by my count) and all their mobile suits (6 x 30 = 180, not counting the mobile suits coming out of Messiah itself). The result is that Kira and the \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' both come out without a single scratch, while one of the DOM Troopers takes some light damage (in the Final Plus/Special Edition, anyway). They were outnumbered at least \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'45 to one\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' and didn\\\'t suffer a single casualty. The \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t even take a hit. On the other side of the battle, Athrun, Mu and the \\\'\\\'Archangel\\\'\\\' take on dozens of ZAFT ships (around 50, again by my count) and hundreds of mobile suits, all while having the superweapon from the last series firing on them. The \\\'\\\'Archangel\\\'\\\' loses one of its gun turrets, but again, none of the main characters\\\' machines take any damage whatsoever. Even counting myself as an \\\"Old Guard\\\" fan (I love [[GundamSEED the first series]]), I don\\\'t think it\\\'s too much to ask for the heroes to face a significant challenge during \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'the final frigging battle of the show.\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'

\\\'\\\'\\\'B.\\\'\\\'\\\' The Flawless Victory seems (again, to me) to represent the nadir of the show\\\'s decay. Here we have Shinn, originally set up as the hero of the series, reduced to the BigBad\\\'s attack dog. He ends the show beaten (effortlessly) and crying on the surface of the Moon, lying next to the wreckage of the Destiny Gundam (you know, the one whose name is [[TitleDrop in the title of the show]]), and he is only spared because the great and magnanimous heroes from the last show pity him and decide to [[SaveTheVillain spare his wretched life.]] It\\\'s like the show somehow crossed CharacterDerailment, BadAssDecay and SeasonalRot and summed it all up with one scene.

Again, I\\\'m not saying the love for the curbstomp is invalid. I mean, maybe Fukuda and Morosawa pulled an epic mindfuck on us all with one of the most brilliantly done [[DecoyProtagonist Decoy Protagonists]] in the history of anime. I just personally doubt it.

\\\'\\\'GundamSEEDDestiny\\\'\\\', the \\\"[[CurbstompBattle Flawless Victory]]\\\"

Now this was posted as an example of a \\\'\\\'Destiny\\\'\\\' [=CMoA=], [[CaptainObvious as you might imagine given the page we\\\'re on.]] Anyway, my initial response post was that most fans instead see it as a DethroningMomentOfSuck. This was based mostly on the fact that I\\\'ve never heard anyone say they \\\'\\\'\\\'liked\\\'\\\'\\\' that ending (SmallReferencePools, I guess). The followup was this:

\\\"Most viewers? Speak for yourself. Fans of Shinn and Durandal hate it, yes. For those of us who are Old Guard fans though, seeing the incredibley self-righteous Shinn and Rey get their respecitve asses handed to them by Athrun and Kira is a thing of beauty. And on top of that, Shinn lives and has to deal with the fact that Athrun, who he spent the entire show looking down on, absolutely \\\'\\\'destroyed\\\'\\\' him.\\\"

That\\\'s a valid point of view. Just to clarify why \\\'\\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\'\\\' wrote what I wrote:

I don\\\'t think this has to be some line drawn between \\\"Old Guard\\\" and \\\"New Guard\\\" fans. I\\\'m \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' a fan of Durandal, or Rey for that matter, though I do like Shinn (and this factors into the [=DMoS=] for me). I like the returning cast, and believe them to have been in the right during the final battle. The issue is

\\\'\\\'\\\'A.\\\'\\\'\\\' The unbelievably one-sided nature of the battle. Kira, the three [[TheScrappy DOM Trooper pilots]] and the \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' take on the Messiah space fortress, its attendant ships (around 30 by my count) and all their mobile suits (6 x 30 = 180, not counting the mobile suits coming out of Messiah itself). The result is that Kira and the \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' both come out without a single scratch, while one of the DOM Troopers takes some light damage (in the Final Plus/Special Edition, anyway). They were outnumbered at least \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'45 to one\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' and didn\\\'t suffer a single casualty. The \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t even take a hit. On the other side of the battle, Athrun, Mu and the \\\'\\\'Archangel\\\'\\\' take on dozens of ZAFT ships (around 50, again by my count) and hundreds of mobile suits, all while having the superweapon from the last series firing on them. The \\\'\\\'Archangel\\\'\\\' loses one of its gun turrets, but again, none of the main characters\\\' machines take any damage whatsoever. Even counting myself as an \\\"Old Guard\\\" fan (I love [[GundamSEED the first series]]), I don\\\'t think it\\\'s too much to ask for the heroes to face a significant challenge during \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'the final frigging battle of the show.\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'

\\\'\\\'\\\'B.\\\'\\\'\\\' The Flawless Victory seems (again, to me) to represent the nadir of the show\\\'s decay. Here we have Shinn, originally set up as the hero of the series, reduced to the BigBad\\\'s attack dog. He ends the show beaten (effortlessly) and crying on the surface of the Moon, lying next to the wreckage of the Destiny Gundam (you know, the one whose name is [[TitleDrop in the title of the show]]), and he is only spared because the great and magnanimous heroes from the last show pity him and decide to [[SaveTheVillain spare his wretched life.]] It\\\'s like the show somehow crossed CharacterDerailment, BadAssDecay and SeasonalRot and summed it all up with one scene.

Again, I\\\'m not saying the love for the curbstomp is invalid. I mean, maybe Fukuda and Morosawa pulled an epic mindfuck on us all with one of the most brilliantly done [[DecoyProtagonist Decoy Protagonists]] in the history of anime. I just personally [[{{Understatement}} doubt it.]]

\\\'\\\'GundamSEEDDestiny\\\'\\\', the \\\"[[CurbstompBattle Flawless Victory]]\\\"

Now this was posted as an example of a \\\'\\\'Destiny\\\'\\\' [=CMoA=], [[CaptainObvious as you might imagine given the page we\\\'re on.]] Anyway, my initial response post was that most fans instead see it as a DethroningMomentOfSuck. This was based mostly on the fact that I\\\'ve never heard anyone say they \\\'\\\'\\\'liked\\\'\\\'\\\' that ending (SmallReferencePools, I guess). The followup was this:

\\\"Most viewers? Speak for yourself. Fans of Shinn and Durandal hate it, yes. For those of us who are Old Guard fans though, seeing the incredibley self-righteous Shinn and Rey get their respecitve asses handed to them by Athrun and Kira is a thing of beauty. And on top of that, Shinn lives and has to deal with the fact that Athrun, who he spent the entire show looking down on, absolutely \\\'\\\'destroyed\\\'\\\' him.\\\"

That\\\'s a valid point of view. Just to clarify why \\\'\\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\'\\\' wrote what I wrote:

I don\\\'t think this has to be some line drawn between \\\"Old Guard\\\" and \\\"New Guard\\\" fans. I\\\'m \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' a fan of Durandal, or Rey for that matter, though I do like Shinn (and this factors into the [=DMoS=] for me). I like the returning cast, and believe them to have been in the right during the final battle. The issue is

\\\'\\\'\\\'A.\\\'\\\'\\\' The unbelievably one-sided nature of the battle. Kira, the three [[TheScrappy DOM Trooper pilots]] and the \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' take on the Messiah space fortress, its attendant ships (around 30 by my count) and all their mobile suits (6 x 30 = 180, not counting the mobile suits coming out of Messiah itself). The result is that Kira and the \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' both come out without a single scratch, while one of the DOM Troopers takes some light damage (in the Final Plus/Special Edition, anyway). They were outnumbered at least \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'45 to one\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' and didn\\\'t suffer a single casualty. The \\\'\\\'Eternal\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t even take a hit. On the other side of the battle, Athrun, Mu and the \\\'\\\'Archangel\\\'\\\' take on dozens of ZAFT ships (around 50, again by my count) and hundreds of mobile suits, all while having the superweapon from the last series firing on them. The \\\'\\\'Archangel\\\'\\\' loses one of its gun turrets, but again, none of the main characters\\\' machines take any damage whatsoever. Even counting myself as an \\\"Old Guard\\\" fan (I love [[GundamSEED the first series]]), I don\\\'t think it\\\'s too much to ask for the heroes to face a significant challenge during \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'the final frigging battle of the show.\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'

\\\'\\\'\\\'B.\\\'\\\'\\\' The Flawless Victory seems (again, to me) to represent the nadir of the show\\\'s decay. Here we have Shinn, originally set up as the hero of the series, reduced to the BigBad\\\'s attack dog. He ends the show beaten (effortlessly) and crying on the surface of the Moon, lying next to the wreckage of the Destiny Gundam (you know, the one whose name is [[TitleDrop in the title of the show]]), and he is only spared because the great and magnanimous heroes from the last show pity him and decide to [[SaveTheVillain spare his wretched life.]] It\\\'s like the show somehow crossed CharacterDerailment, BadAssDecay and SeasonalRot and summed it all up with one scene.

Again, I\\\'m not saying the love for the curbstomp is invalid. I mean, maybe Fukuda and Morosawa pulled an epic mindfuck on us all with one of the most brilliantly done [[DecoyProtagonist Decoy Protagonists]] in the history of anime. I just personally [[Understatement doubt it.]]

\\\'\\\'GundamSEEDDestiny\\\'\\\', the \\\"[[CurbstompBattle Flawless Victory]]\\\"