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->\'\'\'{{Lavanya Six}}\'\'\': While I essentially agree with this piece, especially with regards to how TV Tropes went overboard with the Sue sub-categorization, consensus isn\'t much of a driver of conversation. So lemme play devil\'s advocate...\\\\
\'\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \
\'\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \
to:
->\\\'\\\'\\\'Tropers/LavanyaSix\\\'\\\'\\\': While I essentially agree with this piece, especially with regards to how TV Tropes went overboard with the Sue sub-categorization, consensus isn\\\'t much of a driver of conversation. So lemme play devil\\\'s advocate...\\\\\\\\
\\\'\\\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\\\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \\\"good\\\" characters ever calls out, who distorts the reality field of the story for the cause of his/her awesomeness.\\\'\\\'\\\\\\\\
Embers by Vathara. Well, at least for the first twenty-ish chapters. Then the whole story hops on the express train to Crazytown.\\\\\\\\
I very much enjoyed the style and worldbuilding of Embers, early on. Yet even before all the past lives, dual benders, \\\"moral ambiguity,\\\" and dragonblood nonsense moved center-stage, I couldn\\\'t shake a growing sense that, chapter by chapter, the author was stacking the deck. It really hit me at the point that Toph secretly links up with Zuko to infiltrate Lake Laogai: Toph reflects how her other teammates never bother to learn new, non-combats aspects to their bending, and eventually how utterly naive they are about how grim and harsh reality is.\\\\\\\\
That was when I realized that the story was absolutely going to have its morality centered around Zuko and Iroh, and Toph was going to get a \\\"badass pass\\\" because the author liked her. And at that point, my enjoyment of \\\"Embers\\\" began to take a nosedive. If Zuko is now a hyper-competent badass who Toph feels a kinship for because they both know how the world *really* works, then no amount of cool worldbuilding and scene setting or action is going to make me ignore the turd smell of that warped characterization.\\\\\\\\
Embers\\\' characterization got derailed in the same way as some other \\\"gritty\\\" Avatar fics. It centers its morality on the cool characters and lets them get away with murder. You almost never find fanfics that bash Toph. Or Sokka and Zuko, for that matter. People in general like snarky and/or badass characters, and fics that center on them can easily run overboard with indulging their positive qualities. And if a fic is going to emphasis how awesome such characters are, then what naturally follows in many fics is that the non-badass characters get turned into punching bags.\\\\\\\\
Embers is just a particularly extreme example because, at least for the first 20~25 chapters, it\\\'s a solid AU with expansive worldbuilding that gets slowly poisoned by bad characterization. (And then the whole story overloads with spirit antics, staggering retcons, and the most laughable apologism for the Fire Nation.) Which is why I think it\\\'s such a divisive fic. If you really like Zuko and Toph, then naturally you\\\'re going to be inclined to enjoy an otherwise well-written story that hoist them up as paragons. If you\\\'re inclined more towards the likes of Aang and Katara, then you\\\'re going to be inclined to get pissed off at the author for using them to make Zuko look good with every argument they lose.
\\\'\\\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\\\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \\\"good\\\" characters ever calls out, who distorts the reality field of the story for the cause of his/her awesomeness.\\\'\\\'\\\\\\\\
Embers by Vathara. Well, at least for the first twenty-ish chapters. Then the whole story hops on the express train to Crazytown.\\\\\\\\
I very much enjoyed the style and worldbuilding of Embers, early on. Yet even before all the past lives, dual benders, \\\"moral ambiguity,\\\" and dragonblood nonsense moved center-stage, I couldn\\\'t shake a growing sense that, chapter by chapter, the author was stacking the deck. It really hit me at the point that Toph secretly links up with Zuko to infiltrate Lake Laogai: Toph reflects how her other teammates never bother to learn new, non-combats aspects to their bending, and eventually how utterly naive they are about how grim and harsh reality is.\\\\\\\\
That was when I realized that the story was absolutely going to have its morality centered around Zuko and Iroh, and Toph was going to get a \\\"badass pass\\\" because the author liked her. And at that point, my enjoyment of \\\"Embers\\\" began to take a nosedive. If Zuko is now a hyper-competent badass who Toph feels a kinship for because they both know how the world *really* works, then no amount of cool worldbuilding and scene setting or action is going to make me ignore the turd smell of that warped characterization.\\\\\\\\
Embers\\\' characterization got derailed in the same way as some other \\\"gritty\\\" Avatar fics. It centers its morality on the cool characters and lets them get away with murder. You almost never find fanfics that bash Toph. Or Sokka and Zuko, for that matter. People in general like snarky and/or badass characters, and fics that center on them can easily run overboard with indulging their positive qualities. And if a fic is going to emphasis how awesome such characters are, then what naturally follows in many fics is that the non-badass characters get turned into punching bags.\\\\\\\\
Embers is just a particularly extreme example because, at least for the first 20~25 chapters, it\\\'s a solid AU with expansive worldbuilding that gets slowly poisoned by bad characterization. (And then the whole story overloads with spirit antics, staggering retcons, and the most laughable apologism for the Fire Nation.) Which is why I think it\\\'s such a divisive fic. If you really like Zuko and Toph, then naturally you\\\'re going to be inclined to enjoy an otherwise well-written story that hoist them up as paragons. If you\\\'re inclined more towards the likes of Aang and Katara, then you\\\'re going to be inclined to get pissed off at the author for using them to make Zuko look good with every argument they lose.
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->\'\'\'{{Lavanya Six}}\'\': While I essentially agree with this piece, especially with regards to how TV Tropes went overboard with the Sue sub-categorization, consensus isn\'t much of a driver of conversation. So lemme play devil\'s advocate...\\\\
\'\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \
\'\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \
to:
->\\\'\\\'\\\'{{Lavanya Six}}\\\'\\\'\\\': While I essentially agree with this piece, especially with regards to how TV Tropes went overboard with the Sue sub-categorization, consensus isn\\\'t much of a driver of conversation. So lemme play devil\\\'s advocate...\\\\\\\\
\\\'\\\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\\\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \\\"good\\\" characters ever calls out, who distorts the reality field of the story for the cause of his/her awesomeness.\\\'\\\'\\\\\\\\
Embers by Vathara. Well, at least for the first twenty-ish chapters. Then the whole story hops on the express train to Crazytown.\\\\\\\\
I very much enjoyed the style and worldbuilding of Embers, early on. Yet even before all the past lives, dual benders, \\\"moral ambiguity,\\\" and dragonblood nonsense moved center-stage, I couldn\\\'t shake a growing sense that, chapter by chapter, the author was stacking the deck. It really hit me at the point that Toph secretly links up with Zuko to infiltrate Lake Laogai: Toph reflects how her other teammates never bother to learn new, non-combats aspects to their bending, and eventually how utterly naive they are about how grim and harsh reality is.\\\\\\\\
That was when I realized that the story was absolutely going to have its morality centered around Zuko and Iroh, and Toph was going to get a \\\"badass pass\\\" because the author liked her. And at that point, my enjoyment of \\\"Embers\\\" began to take a nosedive. If Zuko is now a hyper-competent badass who Toph feels a kinship for because they both know how the world *really* works, then no amount of cool worldbuilding and scene setting or action is going to make me ignore the turd smell of that warped characterization.\\\\\\\\
Embers\\\' characterization got derailed in the same way as some other \\\"gritty\\\" Avatar fics. It centers its morality on the cool characters and lets them get away with murder. You almost never find fanfics that bash Toph. Or Sokka and Zuko, for that matter. People in general like snarky and/or badass characters, and fics that center on them can easily run overboard with indulging their positive qualities. And if a fic is going to emphasis how awesome such characters are, then what naturally follows in many fics is that the non-badass characters get turned into punching bags.\\\\\\\\
Embers is just a particularly extreme example because, at least for the first 20~25 chapters, it\\\'s a solid AU with expansive worldbuilding that gets slowly poisoned by bad characterization. (And then the whole story overloads with spirit antics, staggering retcons, and the most laughable apologism for the Fire Nation.) Which is why I think it\\\'s such a divisive fic. If you really like Zuko and Toph, then naturally you\\\'re going to be inclined to enjoy an otherwise well-written story that hoist them up as paragons. If you\\\'re inclined more towards the likes of Aang and Katara, then you\\\'re going to be inclined to get pissed off at the author for using them to make Zuko look good with every argument they lose.
\\\'\\\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\\\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \\\"good\\\" characters ever calls out, who distorts the reality field of the story for the cause of his/her awesomeness.\\\'\\\'\\\\\\\\
Embers by Vathara. Well, at least for the first twenty-ish chapters. Then the whole story hops on the express train to Crazytown.\\\\\\\\
I very much enjoyed the style and worldbuilding of Embers, early on. Yet even before all the past lives, dual benders, \\\"moral ambiguity,\\\" and dragonblood nonsense moved center-stage, I couldn\\\'t shake a growing sense that, chapter by chapter, the author was stacking the deck. It really hit me at the point that Toph secretly links up with Zuko to infiltrate Lake Laogai: Toph reflects how her other teammates never bother to learn new, non-combats aspects to their bending, and eventually how utterly naive they are about how grim and harsh reality is.\\\\\\\\
That was when I realized that the story was absolutely going to have its morality centered around Zuko and Iroh, and Toph was going to get a \\\"badass pass\\\" because the author liked her. And at that point, my enjoyment of \\\"Embers\\\" began to take a nosedive. If Zuko is now a hyper-competent badass who Toph feels a kinship for because they both know how the world *really* works, then no amount of cool worldbuilding and scene setting or action is going to make me ignore the turd smell of that warped characterization.\\\\\\\\
Embers\\\' characterization got derailed in the same way as some other \\\"gritty\\\" Avatar fics. It centers its morality on the cool characters and lets them get away with murder. You almost never find fanfics that bash Toph. Or Sokka and Zuko, for that matter. People in general like snarky and/or badass characters, and fics that center on them can easily run overboard with indulging their positive qualities. And if a fic is going to emphasis how awesome such characters are, then what naturally follows in many fics is that the non-badass characters get turned into punching bags.\\\\\\\\
Embers is just a particularly extreme example because, at least for the first 20~25 chapters, it\\\'s a solid AU with expansive worldbuilding that gets slowly poisoned by bad characterization. (And then the whole story overloads with spirit antics, staggering retcons, and the most laughable apologism for the Fire Nation.) Which is why I think it\\\'s such a divisive fic. If you really like Zuko and Toph, then naturally you\\\'re going to be inclined to enjoy an otherwise well-written story that hoist them up as paragons. If you\\\'re inclined more towards the likes of Aang and Katara, then you\\\'re going to be inclined to get pissed off at the author for using them to make Zuko look good with every argument they lose.
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No comment on the BlackHoleSue thing? [[http://lalunatique.livejournal.com/32173.html?thread=244909 Here]] are some good comments on it.
->\\\'\\\'\\\'{{Lavanya Six}}\\\'\\\': While I essentially agree with this piece, especially with regards to how TV Tropes went overboard with the Sue sub-categorization, consensus isn\\\'t much of a driver of conversation. So lemme play devil\\\'s advocate...\\\\\\\\
\\\'\\\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\\\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \\\"good\\\" characters ever calls out, who distorts the reality field of the story for the cause of his/her awesomeness.\\\'\\\'\\\\\\\\
Embers by Vathara. Well, at least for the first twenty-ish chapters. Then the whole story hops on the express train to Crazytown.\\\\\\\\
I very much enjoyed the style and worldbuilding of Embers, early on. Yet even before all the past lives, dual benders, \\\"moral ambiguity,\\\" and dragonblood nonsense moved center-stage, I couldn\\\'t shake a growing sense that, chapter by chapter, the author was stacking the deck. It really hit me at the point that Toph secretly links up with Zuko to infiltrate Lake Laogai: Toph reflects how her other teammates never bother to learn new, non-combats aspects to their bending, and eventually how utterly naive they are about how grim and harsh reality is.\\\\\\\\
That was when I realized that the story was absolutely going to have its morality centered around Zuko and Iroh, and Toph was going to get a \\\"badass pass\\\" because the author liked her. And at that point, my enjoyment of \\\"Embers\\\" began to take a nosedive. If Zuko is now a hyper-competent badass who Toph feels a kinship for because they both know how the world *really* works, then no amount of cool worldbuilding and scene setting or action is going to make me ignore the turd smell of that warped characterization.\\\\\\\\
Embers\\\' characterization got derailed in the same way as some other \\\"gritty\\\" Avatar fics. It centers its morality on the cool characters and lets them get away with murder. You almost never find fanfics that bash Toph. Or Sokka and Zuko, for that matter. People in general like snarky and/or badass characters, and fics that center on them can easily run overboard with indulging their positive qualities. And if a fic is going to emphasis how awesome such characters are, then what naturally follows in many fics is that the non-badass characters get turned into punching bags.\\\\\\\\
Embers is just a particularly extreme example because, at least for the first 20~25 chapters, it\\\'s a solid AU with expansive worldbuilding that gets slowly poisoned by bad characterization. (And then the whole story overloads with spirit antics, staggering retcons, and the most laughable apologism for the Fire Nation.) Which is why I think it\\\'s such a divisive fic. If you really like Zuko and Toph, then naturally you\\\'re going to be inclined to enjoy an otherwise well-written story that hoist them up as paragons. If you\\\'re inclined more towards the likes of Aang and Katara, then you\\\'re going to be inclined to get pissed off at the author for using them to make Zuko look good with every argument they lose.
No comment on the BlackHoleSue thing? [[http://lalunatique.livejournal.com/32173.html?thread=244909 Here]] are some good comments on it.
->\\\'\\\'\\\'{{Lavanya Six}}\\\'\\\': While I essentially agree with this piece, especially with regards to how TV Tropes went overboard with the Sue sub-categorization, consensus isn\\\'t much of a driver of conversation. So lemme play devil\\\'s advocate...\\\\\\\\
\\\'\\\'Show me just one really well-written story in any medium that has a genuine hateable Mary Sue. I\\\'m not talking about a character that just has so-called Mary Sue traits, but one that ruins the enjoyment of the story, whose terrible behavior neither the author nor any of the \\\"good\\\" characters ever calls out, who distorts the reality field of the story for the cause of his/her awesomeness.\\\'\\\'\\\\\\\\
Embers by Vathara. Well, at least for the first twenty-ish chapters. Then the whole story hops on the express train to Crazytown.\\\\\\\\
I very much enjoyed the style and worldbuilding of Embers, early on. Yet even before all the past lives, dual benders, \\\"moral ambiguity,\\\" and dragonblood nonsense moved center-stage, I couldn\\\'t shake a growing sense that, chapter by chapter, the author was stacking the deck. It really hit me at the point that Toph secretly links up with Zuko to infiltrate Lake Laogai: Toph reflects how her other teammates never bother to learn new, non-combats aspects to their bending, and eventually how utterly naive they are about how grim and harsh reality is.\\\\\\\\
That was when I realized that the story was absolutely going to have its morality centered around Zuko and Iroh, and Toph was going to get a \\\"badass pass\\\" because the author liked her. And at that point, my enjoyment of \\\"Embers\\\" began to take a nosedive. If Zuko is now a hyper-competent badass who Toph feels a kinship for because they both know how the world *really* works, then no amount of cool worldbuilding and scene setting or action is going to make me ignore the turd smell of that warped characterization.\\\\\\\\
Embers\\\' characterization got derailed in the same way as some other \\\"gritty\\\" Avatar fics. It centers its morality on the cool characters and lets them get away with murder. You almost never find fanfics that bash Toph. Or Sokka and Zuko, for that matter. People in general like snarky and/or badass characters, and fics that center on them can easily run overboard with indulging their positive qualities. And if a fic is going to emphasis how awesome such characters are, then what naturally follows in many fics is that the non-badass characters get turned into punching bags.\\\\\\\\
Embers is just a particularly extreme example because, at least for the first 20~25 chapters, it\\\'s a solid AU with expansive worldbuilding that gets slowly poisoned by bad characterization. (And then the whole story overloads with spirit antics, staggering retcons, and the most laughable apologism for the Fire Nation.) Which is why I think it\\\'s such a divisive fic. If you really like Zuko and Toph, then naturally you\\\'re going to be inclined to enjoy an otherwise well-written story that hoist them up as paragons. If you\\\'re inclined more towards the likes of Aang and Katara, then you\\\'re going to be inclined to get pissed off at the author for using them to make Zuko look good with every argument they lose.
