Discussion History Main / CelShading

\\\'\\\'She doesn\\\'t \\\"condemn\\\" them, she\\\'s just trying to persuade them to sleep in the same rough environment she would sleep in.\\\'\\\'

Miko: \\\"Well, yes, if you wanted to give in to gluttony and corruption\\\"

Doesn\\\'t sound to me like it.

\\\'\\\'When that fails, she goes along with them to the inn and even agrees to pay the entire bill, even though the Order has a huge fortune while she only has a small stipend.\\\'\\\'

Fair enough.

\\\'\\\'I\\\'m sorry, but I couldn\\\'t disagree more. The destruction of the inn was so totally the Order\\\'s fault, it\\\'s not even funny. It\\\'s a trifle unfair that she\\\'s blaming all the Order equally, but that\\\'s only because she doesn\\\'t know (and never learns) the full facts of what happened. If she did, she\\\'d realize it\\\'s mostly Roy\\\'s fault.\\\'\\\'

No it was not. There was no way in which the Order could reasonably expect to know that somehow impersonating someone would cause them to be the target of an assassination. In fact no one within the readership, considering how little was already known at that point of that particular King could have know and frankly, if Burlew used that situation to show just how Roy was wrong, that would be an incredibly stupid SpaceWhaleAesop. “Impersonate someone and you and all the other people(who had nothing to do with the king and so were innocent) will always be in an immediate danger.” And that would be a legit example of Anvilliciousness, particularly that of the Can’tGetAwayWithNuthin variety. But hey, I guess Roy shouldn’t have said “assassinate me” during Truth or Dare!:P
Now that that point has been covered, whilst Roy was still wrong to impersonate someone that does not mean that the consequence was any less contrived because if the intention was for Roy to get what not just was reasonable consequence, but a just one, he would have simply gotten arrested for impersonation, and that would be the end of that and just him. But because this somehow “led” to an assassination attempt that Roy would have to be a future psychic to be able to predict (because somehow, political enemies send to assassinate the King somehow coincidentally being able to find the place where the ”King” is residing in a place, which mind you, is in the middle of nowhere, [[SarcasmMode doesn’t sound contrived]]) the idea that the inn being blown up is Roy and the rest of the Order of the Stick’s fault has been disproven.

And as for that barrel? That was only there in the first place because the assassins brought them with them! If anything, it’s more like Nice Job Breaking It, Assassins!

Anyways, Even if none of these things were true, there was still no way in which Miko would reasonable know (given the knowledge that she had of the situation) that it was somehow the Order’s fault, if it hypothetically was. In fact she only “knows” this based on conclusions that she has jumped, thinking that the Order’s gluttony and corruption was the cause, when in reality, it was contrived coincidences, because, again, the assassins “knowing” that the King of Nowhere was residing in a random hotel in the middle of nowhere due to coincidentally eavesdropping does not sound like a valid and organic consequence of impersonation.

This point is made blatantly clear when she cruelly blamed Haley for her speech problems, which is the next and second final point against the idea that the Order were being unreasonable against Miko. It is clear and obvious to people that despite Haley’s flaws, she is still not a fundamentally monstrous being but rather at worst a LoveableRogue type character that despite her flaws, genuinely does care about. Sure it may not be something that Miko would necessarily be aware of, but she should obviously know that Haley isn’t exactly anywhere near morally deficient enough to somehow deserve having her ability to speak taken away. What Haley actually is doesn’t help Miko’s condemnation of her, but the fact that Miko has no real legit reason to believe that she deserve this doesn’t help Miko’s image because frankly condemning Haley for something that was her fault is just wrong and shows that for how much she would like to see herself as a morally pure person who is never in the wrong, she doesn’t act like how a Paladin is supposed to act. Paladin’s are about mercy and compassion and comforting people when they are down, not for kicking them down when their words and actions would really be helpful-which is what Miko has exactly done when she act as if losing her speech was somehow supposed to be Haley’s punishment. So yeah, hardly the words of someone who is supposedly morally superior, because guess what? Someone who genuinely is as moral as a normal Paladin (as opposed to self righteous Lawful Stupid characters) would not have condemned someone suffering in this particular kind of context.

And the final thing that goes against the idea that the Order’s reaction towards Miko was unreasonable? She tried to straight up murder them for something only Elan (accidentally, not deliberately) caused-the destruction of a Gate. Elan, the only person who could hypothetically have any real blame for this, had no idea about the long term consequences of blowing up the Gate (nor could he),but only pressed the self destruct button because of genre convention. Was it still stupid of Elan to press the self destruct button? Yes! Does it mean that he deserves to die for something for consequences no one at the time could foresee? No!

And yet, Miko tried to kill Elan and the rest of the Order of the Stick, even though they were even less blameworthy than Elan. In other words, Miko was going to murder a bunch of innocent people just because she relied on a flawed method of determining their guilt-Detect Evil. Any reasonable Paladin would know not just of the various ways in which it can be fooled, but also of the fact that just because someone is Evil, it doesn’t mean that they automatically deserve to die. The fact that she was explicitly told not to kill them by Shojo, an order she disobeyed, does not help. Of course, whilst killing them could have had been due to legitimate beliefs that they were Evil, this wasn’t the case in this particular scenario because the manner in which Miko determined that they “deserved” to die was incredibly stupid and ultimately wrong, and not the kind you can just say “Oops! My mistake” and expect it to all sort out. So in conclusion, considering that Miko tried to murder them in the first place, the Order weren’t just being jerks, but acting naturally and logically to a the actions of a frankly poor excuse of a Paladin.

Does all of this mean that Miko can’t be seen as sympathetic? No, but it does mean that any resentment that Miko got by the Order was well deserved and the fact the entry try to leave out such important details to make the Order look bad is problematic. So whilst the entry can still stay, that part trying to criticise the Order for acting like they would naturally needs to go. And if anyone still tries to put that part back in, they should take it to the discussion page to see why that part is wrong.

\\\'\\\'She doesn\\\'t \\\"condemn\\\" them, she\\\'s just trying to persuade them to sleep in the same rough environment she would sleep in.\\\'\\\'

Miko: \\\"Well, yes, if you wanted to give in to gluttony and corruption\\\"

Doesn\\\'t sound to me like it.

\\\'\\\'When that fails, she goes along with them to the inn and even agrees to pay the entire bill, even though the Order has a huge fortune while she only has a small stipend.\\\'\\\'

Fair enough.

\\\'\\\'I\\\'m sorry, but I couldn\\\'t disagree more. The destruction of the inn was so totally the Order\\\'s fault, it\\\'s not even funny. It\\\'s a trifle unfair that she\\\'s blaming all the Order equally, but that\\\'s only because she doesn\\\'t know (and never learns) the full facts of what happened. If she did, she\\\'d realize it\\\'s mostly Roy\\\'s fault.\\\'\\\'

No it was not. There was no way in which the Order could reasonably expect to know that somehow impersonating someone would cause them to be the target of an assassination. In fact no one within the readership, considering how little was already known at that point of that particular King could have know and frankly, if Burlew used that situation to show just how Roy was wrong, that would be an incredibly stupid SpaceWhaleAesop. “Impersonate someone and you and all the other people(who had nothing to do with the king and so were innocent) will always be in an immediate danger.” And that would be a legit example of Anvilliciousness, particularly that of the Can’tGetAwayWithNuthin variety. But hey, I guess Roy shouldn’t have said “assassinate me” during Truth or Dare!:P
Now that that point has been covered, whilst Roy was still wrong to impersonate someone that does not mean that the consequence was any less contrived because if the intention was for Roy to get what not just was reasonable consequence, but a just one, he would have simply gotten arrested for impersonation, and that would be the end of that and just him. But because this somehow “led” to an assassination attempt that Roy would have to be a future psychic to be able to predict (because somehow, political enemies send to assassinate the King somehow coincidentally being able to find the place where the ”King” is residing in a place, which mind you, is in the middle of nowhere, [[SarcasmMode doesn’t sound contrived]]) the idea that the inn being blown up is Roy and the rest of the Order of the Stick’s fault has been disproven.

And as for that barrel? That was only there in the first place because the assassins brought them with them! If anything, it’s more like Nice Job Breaking It, Assassins!

Anyways, Even if none of these things were true, there was still no way in which Miko would reasonable know (given the knowledge that she had of the situation) that it was somehow the Order’s fault, if it hypothetically was. In fact she only “knows” this based on conclusions that she has jumped, thinking that the Order’s gluttony and corruption was the cause, when in reality, it was contrived coincidences, because, again, the assassins “knowing” that the King of Nowhere was residing in a random hotel in the middle of nowhere due to coincidentally eavesdropping does not sound like a valid and organic consequence of impersonation.
This point is made blatantly clear when she cruelly blamed Haley for her speech problems, which is the next and second final point against the idea that the Order were being unreasonable against Miko. It is clear and obvious to people that despite Haley’s flaws, she is still not a fundamentally monstrous being but rather at worst a LoveableRogue type character that despite her flaws, genuinely does care about. Sure it may not be something that Miko would necessarily be aware of, but she should obviously know that Haley isn’t exactly anywhere near morally deficient enough to somehow deserve having her ability to speak taken away. What Haley actually is doesn’t help Miko’s condemnation of her, but the fact that Miko has no real legit reason to believe that she deserve this doesn’t help Miko’s image because frankly condemning Haley for something that was her fault is just wrong and shows that for how much she would like to see herself as a morally pure person who is never in the wrong, she doesn’t act like how a Paladin is supposed to act. Paladin’s are about mercy and compassion and comforting people when they are down, not for kicking them down when their words and actions would really be helpful-which is what Miko has exactly done when she act as if losing her speech was somehow supposed to be Haley’s punishment. So yeah, hardly the words of someone who is supposedly morally superior, because guess what? Someone who genuinely is as moral as a normal Paladin (as opposed to self righteous Lawful Stupid characters) would not have condemned someone suffering in this particular kind of context.
And the final thing that goes against the idea that the Order’s reaction towards Miko was unreasonable? She tried to straight up murder them for something only Elan (accidentally, not deliberately) caused-the destruction of a Gate. Elan, the only person who could hypothetically have any real blame for this, had no idea about the long term consequences of blowing up the Gate (nor could he),but only pressed the self destruct button because of genre convention. Was it still stupid of Elan to press the self destruct button? Yes! Does it mean that he deserves to die for something for consequences no one at the time could foresee? No!
And yet, Miko tried to kill Elan and the rest of the Order of the Stick, even though they were even less blameworthy than Elan. In other words, Miko was going to murder a bunch of innocent people just because she relied on a flawed method of determining their guilt-Detect Evil. Any reasonable Paladin would know not just of the various ways in which it can be fooled, but also of the fact that just because someone is Evil, it doesn’t mean that they automatically deserve to die. The fact that she was explicitly told not to kill them by Shojo, an order she disobeyed, does not help. Of course, whilst killing them could have had been due to legitimate beliefs that they were Evil, this wasn’t the case in this particular scenario because the manner in which Miko determined that they “deserved” to die was incredibly stupid and ultimately wrong, and not the kind you can just say “Oops! My mistake” and expect it to all sort out. So in conclusion, considering that Miko tried to murder them in the first place, the Order weren’t just being jerks, but acting naturally and logically to a the actions of a frankly poor excuse of a Paladin.
Does all of this mean that Miko can’t be seen as sympathetic? No, but it does mean that any resentment that Miko got by the Order was well deserved and the fact the entry try to leave out such important details to make the Order look bad is problematic. So whilst the entry can still stay, that part trying to criticise the Order for acting like they would naturally needs to go. And if anyone still tries to put that part back in, they should take it to the discussion page to see why that part is wrong.

\\\'\\\'She doesn\\\'t \\\"condemn\\\" them, she\\\'s just trying to persuade them to sleep in the same rough environment she would sleep in.\\\'\\\'

Miko: \\\"Well, yes, if you wanted to give in to gluttony and corruption\\\"

Doesn\\\'t sound to me like it.

\\\'\\\'When that fails, she goes along with them to the inn and even agrees to pay the entire bill, even though the Order has a huge fortune while she only has a small stipend.\\\'\\\'

Fair enough.

‘’I\\\'m sorry, but I couldn\\\'t disagree more. The destruction of the inn was so totally the Order\\\'s fault, it\\\'s not even funny. It\\\'s a trifle unfair that she\\\'s blaming all the Order equally, but that\\\'s only because she doesn\\\'t know (and never learns) the full facts of what happened. If she did, she\\\'d realize it\\\'s mostly Roy\\\'s fault.’’

No it was not. There was no way in which the Order could reasonably expect to know that somehow impersonating someone would cause them to be the target of an assassination. In fact no one within the readership, considering how little was already known at that point of that particular King could have know and frankly, if Burlew used that situation to show just how Roy was wrong, that would be an incredibly stupid SpaceWhaleAesop. “Impersonate someone and you and all the other people(who had nothing to do with the king and so were innocent) will always be in an immediate danger.” And that would be a legit example of Anvilliciousness, particularly that of the Can’tGetAwayWithNuthin variety. But hey, I guess Roy shouldn’t have said “assassinate me” during Truth or Dare!:P
Now that that point has been covered, whilst Roy was still wrong to impersonate someone that does not mean that the consequence was any less contrived because if the intention was for Roy to get what not just was reasonable consequence, but a just one, he would have simply gotten arrested for impersonation, and that would be the end of that and just him. But because this somehow “led” to an assassination attempt that Roy would have to be a future psychic to be able to predict (because somehow, political enemies send to assassinate the King somehow coincidentally being able to find the place where the ”King” is residing in a place, which mind you, is in the middle of nowhere, [[SarcasmMode doesn’t sound contrived]]) the idea that the inn being blown up is Roy and the rest of the Order of the Stick’s fault has been disproven.

And as for that barrel? That was only there in the first place because the assassins brought them with them! If anything, it’s more like Nice Job Breaking It, Assassins!
Anyways, Even if none of these things were true, there was still no way in which Miko would reasonable know (given the knowledge that she had of the situation) that it was somehow the Order’s fault, if it hypothetically was. In fact she only “knows” this based on conclusions that she has jumped, thinking that the Order’s gluttony and corruption was the cause, when in reality, it was contrived coincidences, because, again, the assassins “knowing” that the King of Nowhere was residing in a random hotel in the middle of nowhere due to coincidentally eavesdropping does not sound like a valid and organic consequence of impersonation.
This point is made blatantly clear when she cruelly blamed Haley for her speech problems, which is the next and second final point against the idea that the Order were being unreasonable against Miko. It is clear and obvious to people that despite Haley’s flaws, she is still not a fundamentally monstrous being but rather at worst a LoveableRogue type character that despite her flaws, genuinely does care about. Sure it may not be something that Miko would necessarily be aware of, but she should obviously know that Haley isn’t exactly anywhere near morally deficient enough to somehow deserve having her ability to speak taken away. What Haley actually is doesn’t help Miko’s condemnation of her, but the fact that Miko has no real legit reason to believe that she deserve this doesn’t help Miko’s image because frankly condemning Haley for something that was her fault is just wrong and shows that for how much she would like to see herself as a morally pure person who is never in the wrong, she doesn’t act like how a Paladin is supposed to act. Paladin’s are about mercy and compassion and comforting people when they are down, not for kicking them down when their words and actions would really be helpful-which is what Miko has exactly done when she act as if losing her speech was somehow supposed to be Haley’s punishment. So yeah, hardly the words of someone who is supposedly morally superior, because guess what? Someone who genuinely is as moral as a normal Paladin (as opposed to self righteous Lawful Stupid characters) would not have condemned someone suffering in this particular kind of context.
And the final thing that goes against the idea that the Order’s reaction towards Miko was unreasonable? She tried to straight up murder them for something only Elan (accidentally, not deliberately) caused-the destruction of a Gate. Elan, the only person who could hypothetically have any real blame for this, had no idea about the long term consequences of blowing up the Gate (nor could he),but only pressed the self destruct button because of genre convention. Was it still stupid of Elan to press the self destruct button? Yes! Does it mean that he deserves to die for something for consequences no one at the time could foresee? No!
And yet, Miko tried to kill Elan and the rest of the Order of the Stick, even though they were even less blameworthy than Elan. In other words, Miko was going to murder a bunch of innocent people just because she relied on a flawed method of determining their guilt-Detect Evil. Any reasonable Paladin would know not just of the various ways in which it can be fooled, but also of the fact that just because someone is Evil, it doesn’t mean that they automatically deserve to die. The fact that she was explicitly told not to kill them by Shojo, an order she disobeyed, does not help. Of course, whilst killing them could have had been due to legitimate beliefs that they were Evil, this wasn’t the case in this particular scenario because the manner in which Miko determined that they “deserved” to die was incredibly stupid and ultimately wrong, and not the kind you can just say “Oops! My mistake” and expect it to all sort out. So in conclusion, considering that Miko tried to murder them in the first place, the Order weren’t just being jerks, but acting naturally and logically to a the actions of a frankly poor excuse of a Paladin.
Does all of this mean that Miko can’t be seen as sympathetic? No, but it does mean that any resentment that Miko got by the Order was well deserved and the fact the entry try to leave out such important details to make the Order look bad is problematic. So whilst the entry can still stay, that part trying to criticise the Order for acting like they would naturally needs to go. And if anyone still tries to put that part back in, they should take it to the discussion page to see why that part is wrong.

\\\'\\\'She doesn\\\'t \\\"condemn\\\" them, she\\\'s just trying to persuade them to sleep in the same rough environment she would sleep in.\\\'\\\'

Miko: \\\"Well, yes, if you wanted to give in to gluttony and corruption\\\"

Doesn\\\'t sound to me like it.

\\\'\\\'When that fails, she goes along with them to the inn and even agrees to pay the entire bill, even though the Order has a huge fortune while she only has a small stipend.\\\'\\\'

Fair enough.
‘’ I\\\'m sorry, but I couldn\\\'t disagree more. The destruction of the inn was so totally the Order\\\'s fault, it\\\'s not even funny. It\\\'s a trifle unfair that she\\\'s blaming all the Order equally, but that\\\'s only because she doesn\\\'t know (and never learns) the full facts of what happened. If she did, she\\\'d realize it\\\'s mostly Roy\\\'s fault.’’

No it was not. There was no way in which the Order could reasonably expect to know that somehow impersonating someone would cause them to be the target of an assassination. In fact no one within the readership, considering how little was already known at that point of that particular King could have know and frankly, if Burlew used that situation to show just how Roy was wrong, that would be an incredibly stupid SpaceWhaleAesop. “Impersonate someone and you and all the other people(who had nothing to do with the king and so were innocent) will always be in an immediate danger.” And that would be a legit example of Anvilliciousness, particularly that of the Can’tGetAwayWithNuthin variety. But hey, I guess Roy shouldn’t have said “assassinate me” during Truth or Dare!:P
Now that that point has been covered, whilst Roy was still wrong to impersonate someone that does not mean that the consequence was any less contrived because if the intention was for Roy to get what not just was reasonable consequence, but a just one, he would have simply gotten arrested for impersonation, and that would be the end of that and just him. But because this somehow “led” to an assassination attempt that Roy would have to be a future psychic to be able to predict (because somehow, political enemies send to assassinate the King somehow coincidentally being able to find the place where the ”King” is residing in a place, which mind you, is in the middle of nowhere, [[SarcasmMode doesn’t sound contrived]]) the idea that the inn being blown up is Roy and the rest of the Order of the Stick’s fault has been disproven.

And as for that barrel? That was only there in the first place because the assassins brought them with them! If anything, it’s more like Nice Job Breaking It, Assassins!
Anyways, Even if none of these things were true, there was still no way in which Miko would reasonable know (given the knowledge that she had of the situation) that it was somehow the Order’s fault, if it hypothetically was. In fact she only “knows” this based on conclusions that she has jumped, thinking that the Order’s gluttony and corruption was the cause, when in reality, it was contrived coincidences, because, again, the assassins “knowing” that the King of Nowhere was residing in a random hotel in the middle of nowhere due to coincidentally eavesdropping does not sound like a valid and organic consequence of impersonation.
This point is made blatantly clear when she cruelly blamed Haley for her speech problems, which is the next and second final point against the idea that the Order were being unreasonable against Miko. It is clear and obvious to people that despite Haley’s flaws, she is still not a fundamentally monstrous being but rather at worst a LoveableRogue type character that despite her flaws, genuinely does care about. Sure it may not be something that Miko would necessarily be aware of, but she should obviously know that Haley isn’t exactly anywhere near morally deficient enough to somehow deserve having her ability to speak taken away. What Haley actually is doesn’t help Miko’s condemnation of her, but the fact that Miko has no real legit reason to believe that she deserve this doesn’t help Miko’s image because frankly condemning Haley for something that was her fault is just wrong and shows that for how much she would like to see herself as a morally pure person who is never in the wrong, she doesn’t act like how a Paladin is supposed to act. Paladin’s are about mercy and compassion and comforting people when they are down, not for kicking them down when their words and actions would really be helpful-which is what Miko has exactly done when she act as if losing her speech was somehow supposed to be Haley’s punishment. So yeah, hardly the words of someone who is supposedly morally superior, because guess what? Someone who genuinely is as moral as a normal Paladin (as opposed to self righteous Lawful Stupid characters) would not have condemned someone suffering in this particular kind of context.
And the final thing that goes against the idea that the Order’s reaction towards Miko was unreasonable? She tried to straight up murder them for something only Elan (accidentally, not deliberately) caused-the destruction of a Gate. Elan, the only person who could hypothetically have any real blame for this, had no idea about the long term consequences of blowing up the Gate (nor could he),but only pressed the self destruct button because of genre convention. Was it still stupid of Elan to press the self destruct button? Yes! Does it mean that he deserves to die for something for consequences no one at the time could foresee? No!
And yet, Miko tried to kill Elan and the rest of the Order of the Stick, even though they were even less blameworthy than Elan. In other words, Miko was going to murder a bunch of innocent people just because she relied on a flawed method of determining their guilt-Detect Evil. Any reasonable Paladin would know not just of the various ways in which it can be fooled, but also of the fact that just because someone is Evil, it doesn’t mean that they automatically deserve to die. The fact that she was explicitly told not to kill them by Shojo, an order she disobeyed, does not help. Of course, whilst killing them could have had been due to legitimate beliefs that they were Evil, this wasn’t the case in this particular scenario because the manner in which Miko determined that they “deserved” to die was incredibly stupid and ultimately wrong, and not the kind you can just say “Oops! My mistake” and expect it to all sort out. So in conclusion, considering that Miko tried to murder them in the first place, the Order weren’t just being jerks, but acting naturally and logically to a the actions of a frankly poor excuse of a Paladin.
Does all of this mean that Miko can’t be seen as sympathetic? No, but it does mean that any resentment that Miko got by the Order was well deserved and the fact the entry try to leave out such important details to make the Order look bad is problematic. So whilst the entry can still stay, that part trying to criticise the Order for acting like they would naturally needs to go. And if anyone still tries to put that part back in, they should take it to the discussion page to see why that part is wrong.